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Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not?

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Should Franz Wagner be signed to a max contract?

Yes
28
42%
No
38
58%
 
Total votes: 66

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#41 » by The-Stallion70 » Tue May 7, 2024 10:47 am

drsd wrote:
The-Stallion70 wrote:It is not flawed grammar, maybe to you but not to us yanks.


Dude: I was born in Winter Park (on the old Navy base). 6-years time served at Publix. I graduated UCF.

But I do question you here: You should KNOW that yankees are from the North. That you would use that word, Are you the transplant (New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, etc.)?

Changing "should" to "will" changes the question as well on an rudimentary level. We both know that players do get paid maxes even if we do not actually totally believe they are worth it. This is why I asked to explain reasoning because there different possible interpretations and reasoning for each.

If you think hard enough you could probably imagine both questions to mean the same thing in this context but thats probably asking a bit much.


And that is my point. The question actually makes more sense as an expectations question over a desire question. Asking if F-Wagner "should" make 30M+ per season is a ridiculous question. The only Magic employee that should make that kind of money is Stuff.

You are probably too young to remember that "should" lost Shaq. I am old enough to know, DON'T ask that question.


If you think hard enough you could probably imagine both questions to mean the same thing in this context but thats probably asking a bit much.


When I say this, I mean this moreso towards Realgm as a whole, not specifically you. I'll be honest I wish there was more thoughtful, reasoned discussion on here than alot of this keyboard posturing we see instead.

If you look up the definition of Yankee it broadly means people living in the US, not just the north. So yea, im right when it comes to that.

I am old enough to know, DON'T ask that question.


How about, I'll ask what i want save a fellow rebel's Osen PTSD.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#42 » by drsd » Tue May 7, 2024 10:48 am

Message Boar wrote:... additionally, that poll probably accounts for at most 2% of the reason Shaq left, with most of it being the Magic lowballing him ...


And this is the other 98%. Shaq left the Magic because the Lakers was willing to pay him more (both in income and the endorsement lifestyle that comes with being a star in LA).

And that takes us back to F-Wagner. He and his agent will sign whatever contract pays him the most. This is not hard. It is all about the green.


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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#43 » by The-Stallion70 » Tue May 7, 2024 10:51 am

Message Boar wrote:Times have changed, that's for sure. But here we are and we have places to geek out about basketball minutiae.

Oh, and the paranoid remark was about your last sentence not the first :P , additionally, that poll probably accounts for at most 2% of the reason Shaq left, with most of it being the Magic lowballing him and Shaq just wanting to go to Hollywood and be in movies and stuff (and play for one of the premier franchises in the sport). Some jealousy of Penny and his endorsements also factored in somewhere, if what I remember reading/hearing is right. Anyway we're getting very sidetracked here, let's get back on topic on page 3 :D


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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#44 » by Message Boar » Tue May 7, 2024 10:52 am

Yes, true, but the only contract Franz can sign for right now is whatever the Magic are willing to offer him, and even next year they can match a max rfa offer if they deem it prudent. Then the only loss would be one year of team control until he hits unrestricted free agency in 2029. Anyway, I'm confident something gets done sooner rather than later, and we'll see what the numbers are then.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#45 » by The-Stallion70 » Tue May 7, 2024 11:02 am

Message Boar wrote:Yes, true, but the only contract Franz can sign for right now is whatever the Magic are willing to offer him, and even next year they can match a max rfa offer if they deem it prudent. Then the only loss would be one year of team control until he hits unrestricted free agency in 2029. Anyway, I'm confident something gets done sooner rather than later, and we'll see what the numbers are then.


I am curious to see how it plays out.

My question remains:

Should he or should he not get a max contract considering all available information his game 7 performance, regular season performance, scarcity of players like him, possible precedent like the Suns playing hardball with Ayton and putting his agent in a position to act if they don't want to commit a full max, etc.

It would be ludicrous to not retain Franz one way or another.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#46 » by basketballRob » Tue May 7, 2024 11:36 am

I think Franz accepts a contract around $28 per season, or he waits until next season and maybe improves his shooting.

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#47 » by Skybox » Tue May 7, 2024 11:49 am

Message Boar wrote:
RichCollab wrote:
The-Stallion70 wrote:
Not the question being asked.


Someone is going to pay Franz max. Hope it’s us.

Honestly, worst case scenario we match it in restricted free agency or maybe (very unlikely) we put him in a trade package for a bonafide all-star. 0% chance this front office just lets Franz walk.


This is the point...why would anyone give an early extension if it's a max (unless the guy is a rock-solid All-Star)? The whole point of securing it a year ahead of time is to get something back in negotiations...that's not adversarial or hating anybody :banghead: Teams offer to "lock a guy up" with guaranteed money for years in exchange for paying a bit less. Players want the security of avoiding FA and having the guaranteed deal...they don't even have to discuss it this year. Franz' agency may recognize that he's better than he played this year and even suggest talking next summer (when he'll still be under team control as a RFA). There's just no reason to rush to max a guy a year early without some team benefit. There could be an injury or a lack of improvement or any other kind of issue. I think they'll sign him and I think he'll be worth a max in the next couple of years, but, in return for the early extension, he'll get paid a bit less than max - but still a boatload of money. Maybe his next contract will be a max-at that point, it will be a LOT more, based on years in the league.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#48 » by basketballRob » Tue May 7, 2024 11:58 am

One other benefit on waiting one year is that Franz cap hold is $21m, and the max will be around $38m. If somehow we're under the cap, that would give us an extra $17m to sign a free agent before we signed Franz. Philadelphia is doing the same thing with Maxey because his cap hold is $13m.

If we traded for a player like Brogdon and gave KCP a huge 1 year deal, we would be setup to make an in season deal like Indiana did for Siakam. If we didn't make a trade with Franz' $21m cap hold, we would have substantial cap room. Issac and Ingles' contracts would fall off.

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#49 » by drsd » Tue May 7, 2024 12:44 pm

basketballRob wrote:One other benefit on waiting one year is that Franz cap hold is $21m, and the max will be around $38m. If somehow we're under the cap, that would give us an extra $17m to sign a free agent before we signed Franz. Philadelphia is doing the same thing with Maxey because his cap hold is $13m.


One risk, a risk Philly might get as a payable bill, is that if F-Wagner goes all-NBA, that's supermax money.

Not sure what the odds are of Maxey going all-NBA, but if he does, cha-ching!


..
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#50 » by Everchange » Tue May 7, 2024 12:50 pm

Food for thought. According to ESPN, Franz was the #14 best playoff performer during the first round of the playoffs (and yes, this includes the dreadful game 7). Amazingly, Paolo didn't make the top 20 but got an "Honorable Mention".

"RAPTOR Wins: 1.3 | BPM Wins: 1.3 | Win Shares: 1.1 | PER Wins: 1.3 | Consensus Wins: 1.3 | Per game: 0.179

Surprised to see Wagner among the top 15? By RAPTOR WAR, he was Orlando's best player during the regular season as well -- rating higher than second-year pro Paolo Banchero -- thanks to a more efficient offensive game and a superior on-court impact. In Round 1 against Cleveland, Wagner once again supplied effective scoring and passing (118 offensive rating, 22.4% usage, 20.1% assist rate) while ranking second on the team in defensive plus/minus, helping him edge out Banchero with 1.3 consensus wins to his teammate's 1.1. Although Wagner did not play well at all (6 points, 1-for-15 shooting, minus-13 plus/minus) in the series clincher Sunday, it's no coincidence the Magic won when Wagner played his best games of the series."


https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/40091124/ranking-20-most-valuable-players-2024-nba-playoffs-first-round

I think it's easy to dwell on game 7 since that wound is so fresh, but prior to game 7, he was having an amazing playoff series. He scored 18, 18, 16, 34, 14 and 26 before that stinker of a 6-point Game 7. Let's also keep in mind that Franz and Paolo are the only players with a 30+ 10+ game without a single turnover in the history of the playoffs.

IMO, this year was an aberration for his 3PT% and like it or not, Franz is probably going to be maxed out. Watching the Nuggets game, I don't think anyone would question whether Murray is a max player with his horrendous 3-18 performance.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#51 » by BCS » Tue May 7, 2024 12:56 pm

drsd wrote:
basketballRob wrote:One other benefit on waiting one year is that Franz cap hold is $21m, and the max will be around $38m. If somehow we're under the cap, that would give us an extra $17m to sign a free agent before we signed Franz. Philadelphia is doing the same thing with Maxey because his cap hold is $13m.


One risk, a risk Philly might get as a payable bill, is that if F-Wagner goes all-NBA, that's supermax money.

Not sure what the odds are of Maxey going all-NBA, but if he does, cha-ching!


..
A risk that I'd have no problem taking if I am the Magic. We are over the cap at that point anyways, so not a big issue, but more importantly, a win-win for all as that means we'd have 2 all nba.

But Franz also has his own risks for not accepting an extension at 25-30m a year guaranteed now. Do we need to bring up Schroder or Oladipo? Younger players usually lock their 1st big deal at least because you never know what can happen especially with injuries.

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#52 » by SloNick Russia » Wed May 8, 2024 9:30 am

I get when NBA media destroy Franz for his 3 point shooting this season, but Magic fans who followed heim for 3 years should know better. Players getting down 8% on shooting is an anomaly, Im am absolutely sure he goes back to his numbers and probably improves.
As a FO I would offer him a choice to sign like 80% max now or play next season for a full max possiblity. Same goes for Suggs. Make contracts frontloaded if possible.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#53 » by meatwad4343 » Wed May 8, 2024 9:44 am

He's not a max player quite yet, but he has potential to get there. Our hands are tied with it regardless. If we don't max him, he's going to want out because there's plenty of teams out there that will max him.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#54 » by Skybox » Wed May 8, 2024 12:14 pm

I think everyone (I've heard at least) outside of our little Magic bubble here is not talking about Franz as a max player...a very very good promising player-but not a max.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#55 » by basketballRob » Wed May 8, 2024 12:17 pm

meatwad4343 wrote:He's not a max player quite yet, but he has potential to get there. Our hands are tied with it regardless. If we don't max him, he's going to want out because there's plenty of teams out there that will max him.
Did Maxey want out this year because he didn't get a max extension last season?

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#56 » by Knightro » Wed May 8, 2024 1:06 pm

basketballRob wrote:
meatwad4343 wrote:He's not a max player quite yet, but he has potential to get there. Our hands are tied with it regardless. If we don't max him, he's going to want out because there's plenty of teams out there that will max him.
Did Maxey want out this year because he didn't get a max extension last season?

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Completely different circumstances and you know it.

Philadelphia was and still is uniquely positioned where they had literally no one but Embiid under contract for next year.

Maxey was always getting a max contract. That’s never been in question. They didn’t need to see more from him. They simply sat him down last year and explained “hey we’re going to pursue other players with our cap space while your cap hold is low and then max you out at the end.”

And he said fine because it didn’t change anything for him. He still gets his money at the exact same time and he still gets the max deal.

You’re talking about a situation where the Magic are choosing not to max Franz because they don’t think he’s worth it. That’s a completely different thing than what the Sixers are doing right now with Maxey.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#57 » by basketballRob » Wed May 8, 2024 2:11 pm

Knightro wrote:
basketballRob wrote:
meatwad4343 wrote:He's not a max player quite yet, but he has potential to get there. Our hands are tied with it regardless. If we don't max him, he's going to want out because there's plenty of teams out there that will max him.
Did Maxey want out this year because he didn't get a max extension last season?

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Completely different circumstances and you know it.

Philadelphia was and still is uniquely positioned where they had literally no one but Embiid under contract for next year.

Maxey was always getting a max contract. That’s never been in question. They didn’t need to see more from him. They simply sat him down last year and explained “hey we’re going to pursue other players with our cap space while your cap hold is low and then max you out at the end.”

And he said fine because it didn’t change anything for him. He still gets his money at the exact same time and he still gets the max deal.

You’re talking about a situation where the Magic are choosing not to max Franz because they don’t think he’s worth it. That’s a completely different thing than what the Sixers are doing right now with Maxey.
The Magic could want to see if he can improve his shooting. Franz could accept less or prove next year that he's a max player. Right now, Franz looks like a 3rd or 4th option on a contending team. We were all hoping that Franz could average 23 ppg on 36% from 3, but that didn't happen.

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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#58 » by Def Swami » Wed May 8, 2024 4:47 pm

He didn't earn it, unfortunately. I think if he would have performed better during the season and/or playoffs, then I think everyone would gladly agree to giving him the max extension. He still has to prove he can be a legit #2 to earn that.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#59 » by UCFJayBird » Wed May 8, 2024 6:45 pm

Tough question. Should he? Probably not. He should probably get near max. Very few players SHOULD get max. Maybe 30-40 players in the entire league should get the max IMO. But in the league today, you have to overpay to keep players.

The Magic are in a good spot though. Because he's on a rookie deal, he'd be a RFA next season if he wanted to test the waters. And he'd have to risk injury both in the Olympics this summer and all of next year. So the Magic have leverage to get a deal done this summer at favorable terms that works for both players. Franz would have to take a pretty big risk to put off an extension to try and squeeze out a few more mil per year. He'd also have to weigh the consideration that a future team that COULD offer him the max, might be in a state with a State Income Tax, or that that team's dynamic and ability to compete may not be as attractive as Orlando's.

All signs point to the Magic SHOULD be able to sign him to a less than max extension. It comes down to whether or not Franz and those around him decide can he risk injury to try and squeeze out a slightly better deal over the safety of a guaranteed deal now. Hopefully they give him something fair though and don't somehow insult him by trying to lowball and squeeze him for less than is fair.
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Re: Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not? 

Post#60 » by SD2042 » Wed May 8, 2024 7:04 pm

ogmagicfan wrote:I wish this was an easier decision if Franz 3 continued the trajectory it was on his first 2 seasons and his in between game developed more. Thatd be an easy max contract

I think he'll get close to or the same contract that Desmond Bane got. Fairly close to max.

So a 5 yr/175-200 mil, btwn 35-40 mil a year


I can get with that logic. Franz has the potential to get there as a future max player. Right now, he still has more work to do towards proving his worth as that player. After his Gm 7 debacle, I expect him to hit the lab this offseason and work on the intricates of his game so he can continue to become a better player in the long term.

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