Do you think Franz Wagner should get a Max or not?

[PrimeThyme]

It's strange to me how this has become a conversation that some fans are almost unwilling to have, as if Franz is a two-time All-NBA player who just lit the world on fire.

In three years, Franz has zero All-Star appearances, zero All-NBA appearances, and in his first playoff series, he shot 26% from three after shooting 28% in the regular season and went 1-15 in a closeout Game 7.

I don't say all that to make the case that Franz is not a very good player, he is, but he has not proven to be a max player. He had all the power to make himself one this year. If he comes into this season and makes a sizable jump offensively and shoots 36% from three, we are rolling out the red carpet and not having this debate.

But he didn't. Franz regressed. I don't care about the other areas of his game that improved. Franz was a 28% three-point shooter this year, and that makes him a different player entirely.

I don't want to hear "Well MPJ got one", when the decision to give MPJ a max contract is made much easier when you already have your Jokic and Jamal.

I don't see Weltman giving him one. If Franz insists that he should, let him go out and prove it this year.

[Skybox]

It's strange to me how this has become a conversation that some fans are almost unwilling to have, as if Franz is a two-time All-NBA player who just lit the world on fire.

In three years, Franz has zero All-Star appearances, zero All-NBA appearances, and in his first playoff series, he shot 26% from three after shooting 28% in the regular season and went 1-15 in a closeout Game 7.

I don't say all that to make the case that Franz is not a very good player, he is, but he has not proven to be a max player. He had all the power to make himself one this year. If he comes into this season and makes a sizable jump offensively and shoots 36% from three, we are rolling out the red carpet and not having this debate.

But he didn't. Franz regressed. I don't care about the other areas of his game that improved. Franz was a 28% three-point shooter this year, and that makes him a different player entirely.

I don't want to hear "Well MPJ got one", when the decision to give MPJ a max contract is made much easier when you already have your Jokic and Jamal.

I don't see Weltman giving him one. If Franz insists that he should, let him go out and prove it this year.

Exactly...you can always give him a max next summer when he's an RFA if it's a sticking point. I really don't think it is (outside of RealGM Magic "bubble")

BTW, MPJ max was a mistake, Garland max was a mistake...very good players. Also, new cap rules will curb a lot of that foolishness. Going into the tax aprons will be more than just fines to billionaires - there are tough restrictions on player movements, etc.
Add to that that ORL isn't one of those Billionaire Playboy fun orgs where the owners wear tank tops and drop max deals out of helicopters, funded by Silicon valley madness or hedge funds.

[RookieStar]

It's strange to me how this has become a conversation that some fans are almost unwilling to have, as if Franz is a two-time All-NBA player who just lit the world on fire.

In three years, Franz has zero All-Star appearances, zero All-NBA appearances, and in his first playoff series, he shot 26% from three after shooting 28% in the regular season and went 1-15 in a closeout Game 7.

I don't say all that to make the case that Franz is not a very good player, he is, but he has not proven to be a max player. He had all the power to make himself one this year. If he comes into this season and makes a sizable jump offensively and shoots 36% from three, we are rolling out the red carpet and not having this debate.

But he didn't. Franz regressed. I don't care about the other areas of his game that improved. Franz was a 28% three-point shooter this year, and that makes him a different player entirely.

I don't want to hear "Well MPJ got one", when the decision to give MPJ a max contract is made much easier when you already have your Jokic and Jamal.

I don't see Weltman giving him one. If Franz insists that he should, let him go out and prove it this year.

Exactly...you can always give him a max next summer when he's an RFA if it's a sticking point. I really don't think it is (outside of RealGM Magic "bubble")

BTW, MPJ max was a mistake, Garland max was a mistake...very good players. Also, new cap rules will curb a lot of that foolishness. Going into the tax aprons will be more than just fines to billionaires - there are tough restrictions on player movements, etc.
Add to that that ORL isn't one of those Billionaire Playboy fun orgs where the owners wear tank tops and drop max deals out of helicopters, funded by Silicon valley madness or hedge funds.

Nope.. ORL ownership is one of those old rich money where you have no idea their real net worth is.. who probably are laughing at these Zuck,Elon,etc rankings

( at least those of us outsid US influence when we look at American fortunes )

[Skybox]

It's strange to me how this has become a conversation that some fans are almost unwilling to have, as if Franz is a two-time All-NBA player who just lit the world on fire.

In three years, Franz has zero All-Star appearances, zero All-NBA appearances, and in his first playoff series, he shot 26% from three after shooting 28% in the regular season and went 1-15 in a closeout Game 7.

I don't say all that to make the case that Franz is not a very good player, he is, but he has not proven to be a max player. He had all the power to make himself one this year. If he comes into this season and makes a sizable jump offensively and shoots 36% from three, we are rolling out the red carpet and not having this debate.

But he didn't. Franz regressed. I don't care about the other areas of his game that improved. Franz was a 28% three-point shooter this year, and that makes him a different player entirely.

I don't want to hear "Well MPJ got one", when the decision to give MPJ a max contract is made much easier when you already have your Jokic and Jamal.

I don't see Weltman giving him one. If Franz insists that he should, let him go out and prove it this year.

Exactly...you can always give him a max next summer when he's an RFA if it's a sticking point. I really don't think it is (outside of RealGM Magic "bubble")

BTW, MPJ max was a mistake, Garland max was a mistake...very good players. Also, new cap rules will curb a lot of that foolishness. Going into the tax aprons will be more than just fines to billionaires - there are tough restrictions on player movements, etc.
Add to that that ORL isn't one of those Billionaire Playboy fun orgs where the owners wear tank tops and drop max deals out of helicopters, funded by Silicon valley madness or hedge funds.

Nope.. ORL ownership is one of those old rich money where you have no idea their real net worth is.. who probably are laughing at these Zuck,Elon,etc rankings

( at least those of us outsid US influence when we look at American fortunes )

I know they've got that ScamWay money...I just wonder if the kids in Michigan are excited about spending it on some team they own in ORL. Haven't visited the new arena...heard it's nice

All of the owners have the money...but only a few are really crazy Cuban, Ballmer, PHX guy level fanatics that happily shower it on the roster.

[RookieStar]

Exactly...you can always give him a max next summer when he's an RFA if it's a sticking point. I really don't think it is (outside of RealGM Magic "bubble")

BTW, MPJ max was a mistake, Garland max was a mistake...very good players. Also, new cap rules will curb a lot of that foolishness. Going into the tax aprons will be more than just fines to billionaires - there are tough restrictions on player movements, etc.
Add to that that ORL isn't one of those Billionaire Playboy fun orgs where the owners wear tank tops and drop max deals out of helicopters, funded by Silicon valley madness or hedge funds.

Nope.. ORL ownership is one of those old rich money where you have no idea their real net worth is.. who probably are laughing at these Zuck,Elon,etc rankings

( at least those of us outsid US influence when we look at American fortunes )

I know they've got that ScamWay money...I just wonder if the kids in Michigan are excited about spending it on some team they own in ORL. Haven't visited the new arena...heard it's nice

All of the owners have the money...but only a few are really crazy Cuban, Ballmer, PHX guy level fanatics that happily shower it on the roster.

Yeah... in my experience im the finance world, those " really" rich people are not the ones that spend like crazy in their toys. But they spend when they want to.

Who knows, maybe the DeVos family are laughing at the Ballmers, Cubans and etc when they gather for their annual lizard people blood ritual thingy lol

[SOUL]

If there is push-back between max and paying a little less than the max, he will get the max.

[Knightro]

If there is push-back between max and paying a little less than the max, he will get the max.

To me, the potential downsides are not worth the small amount of savings that would come from trying to nickel and dime the guy.

[SOUL]

To me, the potential downsides are not worth the small amount of savings that would come from trying to nickel and dime the guy.

Surely hasn't bitten us in the ass before!

[Audi]

If you sat down with Franz and asked him what contract he thinks he’s earned…I’m not entirely certain that he would even say max.

[Knightro]

If you sat down with Franz and asked him what contract he thinks he’s earned…I’m not entirely certain that he would even say max.

His agent would say it

[PrimeThyme]

Shaq was a 3-time All-Star, 3-time All-NBA, and had made a Finals appearance by this point in his career.

I don't think it needs to be stated how different the situations are. I'm not worried about downsides. Franz, at this point, is not in the stratosphere of player to keep me up at night for holding ground on a max.

Everything orbits around Paolo at this point. Making sure we are committing that percentage of our cap going forward to the right guys is my biggest concern.

[Knightro]

Shaq was a 3-time All-Star, 3-time All-NBA, and had made a Finals appearance by this point in his career.

I don't think it needs to be stated how different the situations are. I'm not worried about downsides. Franz, at this point, is not in the stratosphere of player to keep me up at night for holding ground on a max.

Everything orbits around Paolo at this point. Making sure we are committing that percentage of our cap going forward to the right guys is my biggest concern.

If Paolo shoots sub 30% from the 3PT line next year (which he's done already once before), are you not giving him a max deal either?

Development isn't always linear.

[The-Stallion70]

If there is push-back between max and paying a little less than the max, he will get the max.

To me, the potential downsides are not worth the small amount of savings that would come from trying to nickel and dime the guy.

If Cam Johnson got $108M then that is probably the best recent comparison point for Franz considering his age and position they play.

And ya Franz is probably going to get a Max then.

[Knightro]

If Cam Johnson got $108M then that is probably the best recent comparison point for Franz considering his age and position they play.

And ya Franz is probably going to get a Max then.

Their age?

Franz is 22 years old.

Cam Johnson was a 23 year old rookie and signed his extension at age 27.

[MagicMatic]

The funniest thing about this conversation is that nobody has alternatives to spend money while they question Franz.

WHO else is better than Franz that you are realistically giving near max or max money to as a 22 year old? Name that player.

Some of you would love to rather give some 35 or 36 year old with no upside max money instead.

As a small market team you retain your players or you trade them. You retain Franz. Surprised this thread is almost 5 pages.

[bigdogdylan5]

If you say we should sign him for less than 30 million you are basically saying we should trade him. I am sorry he is not signing less than that. The extensions given out this summer will really set the market. What does Barnes and Senguin get? They might get max extensions. I will be very intrigued what Cade gets. Like if he gets a max that will be a very hard argue by our front office that Franz shouldn’t get it too.

[basketballRob]

Steph Curry didn't get the max after his rookie contract.

Sent from my SM-G781U using RealGM Forums mobile app

[Knightro]

There's just not really any great upside in playing hard ball with Franz.

There's obviously no scenario where he's agreeing to take something crazy low like 25M per season.

So what are you really hard balling him over? 35M instead of 38M in Year 1?

And if you do hard ball him, you run the risk of pissing him and his agents off and ultimately you risk not having him locked up for his prime years.

Because if he's upset about the way negotiations go, he could always say "F you" and sign a qualifying offer to get to unrestricted free agency after just a year. Or he could sign a poison pill offer sheet with another team next summer where he's only locked up 3 years instead of 5.

Or the Magic could match an offer sheet and Franz could just immediately ask for a trade. And since he'll have already gotten paid, there won't be any incentive for him to play hard at that point.

Even if his shooting DOESN'T get better - which is incredibly unlikely considering he's a spectacular FT shooter at 85% and has made threes at a good clip before - he'll still be a highly valuable trade commodity even on a full max.

[Knightro]

Steph Curry didn't get the max after his rookie contract.

I know that you understand how disingenuous remarks like these are.

Steph Curry didn't get a max contract extension off his rookie deal because had chronic ankle issues in his 2nd and 3rd seasons that required multiple ankle surgeries.

[PrimeThyme]

If Paolo shoots sub 30% from the 3PT line next year (which he's done already once before), are you not giving him a max deal either?

Development isn't always linear.

Even without going into all the reasons why I would still view him, even without a 3-point shot, as a vastly superior longterm offensive player and hub of an offense, Paolo is viewed incredibly highly by his peers. For a small market team that matters. He is going to attract players and provide financial benefit beyond basketball to this franchise. He's already banked an All-Star selection and was Rookie of the Year. He averaged 27 PPG and piggybacked his team on the road to a Game 7 at 21.

To me, Paolo has already earned his max contract. Franz has not and had not through 2 years. His second year was setting him up for what we expected to be a Year 3 jump. Instead, it was a Year 3 stagnation at best.

If Franz had the accolades and had shown what Paolo has shown through two years as a potential face of a franchise and playoff performer, this year 3 wouldn't be an issue for me. It is one because this year was supposed to be the jump that Paolo had in year 2.