WIP: Rumblings about a trade with Iguodala?

[phiphan]

Your numbers don't take into account that Tracy was playing with a nagging knee and shoulder injury all year (he got surgery on both immediately after the season ended) and was stuck carrying his team when Yao went down. He's a better scorer than Iguodala...it's not even arguable.

It's not as if McGrady is injured once in a blue moon -- he's been injury prone for the latter half of his career. What good is it talking about a healthy McGrady when such a thing rarely exists?

McGrady (29 years old): 21.6 ppg (42% shooting), 5.9 apg, 5.1 rpg (66 total games played)
Iguodala (25 years old): 19.9 ppg (46% shooting), 4.8 apg, 5.4 rpg (82 games total)

Really it's not as far apart as you're trying to assert it is. And I absolutely think it's fair to take a "what have you done for me lately" approach, given the trajectory of both players.

[Loose Cannon]

It's not as if McGrady is injured once in a blue moon -- he's been injury prone for the latter half of his career. What good is it talking about a healthy McGrady when such a thing rarely exists?

McGrady (29 years old): 21.6 ppg (42% shooting), 5.9 apg, 5.1 rpg (66 total games played)
Iguodala (25 years old): 19.9 ppg (46% shooting), 4.8 apg, 5.4 rpg (82 games total)

Really it's not as far apart as you're trying to assert it is. And I absolutely think it's fair to take a "what have you done for me lately" approach, given the trajectory of both players.

Ever since the back injuries, it's been freak accidents that have tormented him. Those knee and shoulder injuries? They're fixed now.

He was healthier for the most part of '07 and you really got a dose of what he's able to do.

[76ersFan1]

iguodalas rebounds and assists decreased this year... his assists went down 1 which is about 2 less points he's contributing and his points increased 1 per game which is 1 piont more he's contributing. and i never claimed mcgrady to be a generational player but he's far better than iguodala who has been hyped up so much since iverson left and has failed to step up to the plate (see pistons-sixers series 2007-2008 season)

[51X3RF4N]

OK...

Aside from all the damn numbers, which mean nothing in reality, because they are situational.

TMac is the FAR better player.

When Iggy straps a team on his back and plays in the Western Conference and wins 21 straight games, I will consider him on TMac's level and I would resign him instead of trading him for TMac.

TMac has the ability to simply score every time he touches it, from anywhere, against anyone. Iggy doesn't.

That is really all there is to this argument IMO.

I'm not trying to hate on Iggy here. People are getting defensive cuz they have man-crushes on Iggy and don't want to see him being compared less favorably to TMac.

I am simply stating that TMac IS that much better. Numbers don't prove JACK IMO.

What kind of numbers did Reggie Evans have last year?

Answer me this: How can someone with subpar numbers at the PF spot make such a huge impact on the playoffs for us last season? Well, I guess any other PF who put up better numbers would've been better for us. HAH. Numbers are SO overrated.

[jmon]

You have officially lost your argument with these two quotes...

Putting Iguodala and Kobe in the same sentence equals a no-no. Don't ever, ever do that again.

And on top of that, coming into the league as a rookie, Kobe had more talent in his pinky toe than Iguodala had as a rookie. Hell, even Iguodala's talent NOW.

I used Kobe as an example of a player who "developed" LATE in his career. He is the exaggeration of my point. I think that is easy to see. There are tons of examples. Look at any players' development between 23 and 25. 9 times out of 10 there is going to be improvement assumiong there wasn't a setback like an injury.

And to say Iguodala is on the same level as Tony Parker and Rip Hamilton is sheer nuttiness. You oughta have your posting privileges revoked for that sentence alone.

Are Rip Hamilton and Tony Parker more than I think they are? Parker is a top 10 PG in the NBA probably. Hamilton is a top 10 SG probably. Iguodala is a top 10 SF. Am I missing something?

And also, the Pistons were a special team. Very different than what history dictates how championships are usually won. You won't see a team like that come around for a long time.

They are the blueprint of how to do it without a "generational" player. They are what the Sixers have to follow. McGrady, mr injuries, is a big risk.

[Sixerscan]

What kind of numbers did Reggie Evans have last year?

Answer me this: How can someone with subpar numbers at the PF spot make such a huge impact on the playoffs for us last season? Well, I guess any other PF who put up better numbers would've been better for us. HAH. Numbers are SO overrated.

Cause he put up really good numbers for Reggie Evans the first 3 games. Then he went back to being Reggie Evans in the last 3.

[jmon]

Answer me this: How can someone with subpar numbers at the PF spot make such a huge impact on the playoffs for us last season? Well, I guess any other PF who put up better numbers would've been better for us. HAH. Numbers are SO overrated.

The stats are the stats. Your perception of the stats is what leads you to think that Reggie has poor statistics. When I see his statistics, I think they were 4th-5th best on the team last year. He and Thaddeus were pretty close. Rebounding and defense are more important than scoring in my book and Reggie provides ELITE rebounding. Reggie boards as much, per minute, as anyone in the NBA pretty much.

Numbers aren't overrated. points, assists, rebounding, steals, and blocks taken per game are SO overrated.

[Gsraider]

When Iggy straps a team on his back and plays in the Western Conference and wins 21 straight games, I will consider him on TMac's level and I would resign him instead of trading him for TMac

That's fair. By the same token, when a back specialist signs off on McGrady's back and suggests that this isn't a chronic issue and he should have no issues for the next several years, I won't hesitate to support a trade like this. I doubt you will find one though.

McGrady has been injury prone for awhile now and back problems are not the type of injury that just go away. He is allegedly available in a trade due to those issues because if he didn't have them, he wouldn't be available. I'm sure someone once that Jeff Ruland's knee would be fine too. And, before you scoff at that example, I believe Ruland played and played well in the playoff's, the year before he was traded to the Sixers, so no one really thought he was done.

[jmon]

What kind of numbers did Reggie Evans have last year?

Answer me this: How can someone with subpar numbers at the PF spot make such a huge impact on the playoffs for us last season? Well, I guess any other PF who put up better numbers would've been better for us. HAH. Numbers are SO overrated.

Cause he put up really good numbers for Reggie Evans the first 3 games. Then he went back to being Reggie Evans in the last 3.

Yep. He made a few more shots in the first couple games, which is a big deal for Reggie, but eventually he fell back to reality, and even fell below his standards for a game or 2.

[Sixerscan]

Answer me this: How can someone with subpar numbers at the PF spot make such a huge impact on the playoffs for us last season? Well, I guess any other PF who put up better numbers would've been better for us. HAH. Numbers are SO overrated.

The stats are the stats. Your perception of the stats is what leads you to think that Reggie has poor statistics. When I see his statistics, I think they were 4th-5th best on the team last year. He and Thaddeus were pretty close. Rebounding and defense are more important than scoring in my book and Reggie provides ELITE rebounding. Reggie boards as much, per minute, as anyone in the NBA pretty much.

there's just no way Evans stats are near Thad's. Thad's PER is 6 points higher. Maybe if you just look at like points/assists/boards, but the guy shot a horrible percentage for a big and turns the ball over like it's his job. By his standards he didn't really have a great year rebounding either.

[51X3RF4N]

This is all moot anyways because this deal isn't happening. I will not concede my points, but I will stop the ridiculous arguing that I am taking part in on this board every day.

We need more to talk about. This is too boring.

[Loose Cannon]

McGrady has been injury prone for awhile now and back problems are not the type of injury that just go away. He is allegedly available in a trade due to those issues because if he didn't have them, he wouldn't be available. I'm sure someone once that Jeff Ruland's knee would be fine too. And, before you scoff at that example, I believe Ruland played and played well in the playoff's, the year before he was traded to the Sixers, so no one really thought he was done.

But yet he hasn't been bothered by back injuries in 2 years?

[jmon]

there's just no way Evans stats are near Thad's. Thad's PER is 6 points higher. Maybe if you just look at like points/assists/boards, but the guy shot a horrible percentage for a big and turns the ball over like it's his job. By his standards he didn't really have a great year rebounding either.

Agreed, Evans had his worst year in a long time.

I prefer WP48 as my statistical measure. Its major "criticism" is that it favors rebounding.

I probably like WP48 because it says the following...

http://www.wagesofwins.com/OverRatedPER0708.html
http://www.wagesofwins.com/UnderRatedPER0708.html

With regards to play last year, I think those lists are spot on. PER was made to be public perception. Ugly players get no love.

Evans got 4.5 more rebounds per 36 minutes playing the same position as Thaddeus primarily. That is a lot of rebounds. Rebounds that will be missed next year with Brand starting. Evans is a garbageman who doesn't block shots so he gets no love.

I would give the edge to Thaddeus though. His scoring efficiency is sweet. The kid has to start getting to the line though.

[Sixerscan]

I'm not saying that PER is perfect by any means, and that wages of wins blog is really interesting to read, but any stat that ranks Evans in front of LeBron James (I believe that was in 06/07) needs some kinks worked out. There's public perception and then there's a laugh test that any stat has to go through.

I'm not sure how much we'll miss Evans' rebounding. Brand is no slouch himself. As long as Mo does the right thing and plays Andre at the 2 and thad at the 3 for most of the game we'll be fine, and obviously we'll improve in other things to balance it out.

[76ersFan1]

Are Rip Hamilton and Tony Parker more than I think they are? Parker is a top 10 PG in the NBA probably. Hamilton is a top 10 SG probably. Iguodala is a top 10 SF. Am I missing something?

yea you are missing something, the whole NBA

paul pierce
vince carter
lebron james
tracy mcgrady
carmelo anthnoy
ron artest
kobe bryant
josh smith
shawn marion
richard jefferson
those are 10 SFs better than iguodala

rashard lewis, kevin durant, caron butler, tayshaun prince, corey maggette, josh howard, gerald wallace, hedo turkoglu, danny granger- theres another 9 that can be argued to be better than iguodala (Say what you want, and i know numbers arent everything but these guys averages, points and rebounds, are as good as iguodala if not better and most of them aren't their teams number 1 options) so to say iguodala is a top 10 SF is very biased considering he can arguably be the #20 (probably around 14-15 realistically IMO) SF in the league

[Nofx8881]

I wouldn't touch Tracy McGrady with a 10 foot pole and I certainly wouldn't trade Reggie Evans, Andre Iguodala, and a filler (which, by the way, we don't even have which is why we're probably going to add 3 useless guys just to fill out the bench) for McGrady.

The guy isn't the same player he used to be and even if he were, I still wouldn't trade for him because he's always been injured at some point during the season. I'm not saying that McGrady isn't a better player than Igoudala (at least offensively), but with his injury history and age (same as Brand, but with back injuries, age makes a difference) I wouldn't want him. I'm not sure if the guy has ever played a full 82 game season and his 66 games last year (62 starts) and his 21 ppg don't impress me too much.

If this were McGrady from 3 or 4 years ago, I would think about it simply because he was a far superior offensive player (despite the injuries), but this is McGrady now. Age 29 with a history of back problems and a decline in scoring and his inability to finish a full season...no thanks. And while this has all probably been brought up, here is just a little comparison of their stats from last season:

McGrady averaged (and I'm rounding up) 22 points, 5 rebounds, 6 assists, 1 steal, 42% shooting, 68% from the line, and 29% beyond the arc. That was in 66 regular season games.

Igoudala averaged (and I'm rounding up) 20 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists, 2 steals, 46% shooting, 72% from the line, and 33% beyond the arc. That was in 82 regular season games.

Now McGrady was undeniably the better playoff performer, but this is a young team and they won't be competing for a title this year with Iguodala or with McGrady so it seems crazy to me to trade for McGrady with all his issues. Now if the Sixers were a Boston Celtics team and they needed that final piece, I would say pull the trigger, but getting older and not getting much more production out of the position, I don't do it. Now if Iguodala is going to demand $15 million/season or something absurd like that, then maybe a trade like this would be necessary because there's no way he's worth that kind of money, but if Iguodala can be signed for 11 or 12 million, I see no reason to do this deal. I really don't think it makes this team drastically better.

I haven't really been reading this thread too much so I don't know if this is for real or just a rumor or what, but I figured I would just throw in my 2 cents.

[jmon]

I'm not saying that PER is perfect by any means, and that wages of wins blog is really interesting to read, but any stat that ranks Evans in front of LeBron James (I believe that was in 06/07) needs some kinks worked out. There's public perception and then there's a laugh test that any stat has to go through.

I'm not sure how much we'll miss Evans' rebounding. Brand is no slouch himself. As long as Mo does the right thing and plays Andre at the 2 and thad at the 3 for most of the game we'll be fine, and obviously we'll improve in other things to balance it out.

I haven't been reading the blog long enough to really be able to confirm or deny the Lebron-Evans thing, but WP48 has to be adjusted for position. PFs have considerably higher WP48 than SFs, so you have to adjust for the postion if you want to compare across position.

Brand really isn't that good of a rebounder. He gets 1.5 more rebounds than Thad per 36 minutes, and 3 less than Evans per 36, so he is closer to Thaddeus than Evans.

As Bill Simmons pointed out, Brand plays a lot of minutes, so he gets a lot of rebounds. He is no rebounding beast by any stretch.

EDIT: Forgot per 36, fixed.

[jmon]

Are Rip Hamilton and Tony Parker more than I think they are? Parker is a top 10 PG in the NBA probably. Hamilton is a top 10 SG probably. Iguodala is a top 10 SF. Am I missing something?

yea you are missing something, the whole NBA

paul pierce
vince carter
lebron james
tracy mcgrady
carmelo anthnoy
ron artest
kobe bryant
josh smith
shawn marion
richard jefferson
those are 10 SFs better than iguodala

rashard lewis, kevin durant, caron butler, tayshaun prince, corey maggette, josh howard, gerald wallace, hedo turkoglu, danny granger- theres another 9 that can be argued to be better than iguodala (Say what you want, and i know numbers arent everything but these guys averages, points and rebounds, are as good as iguodala if not better and most of them aren't their teams number 1 options) so to say iguodala is a top 10 SF is very biased considering he can arguably be the #20 (probably around 14-15 realistically IMO) SF in the league

Why not add Monta Ellis, Allen Iverson, and all the other SGs to that list, since you already include plenty of guards. While you are at it, add more PFs as well.

[76ersFan1]

the PER stat can only be used for so much, a lot of these energy players like evans who have impressive numbers like that for their PER stats would not be as effective if he got brands minutes. I bet if evans and brand played equal minutes throughout a year brand would end up with more rebounds. If evans was as effective as he was for 35 minutes a game as he is for 10 minutes he would be a starter

[76ersFan1]

well iguodala can be considered SG too considering thats what he will most likely play next year. all those players have played SF in their lives, Iverson and monta ellis havent which is why i did not add them but i added guys like kobe bryant who is a SG but can cover SFs and play the position