Andre Miller

[Don]

I would hesitate in taking back Hinrich for Miller, especially because I'm wary of injured players. If possible to get one, I'd prefer a younger, taller pg to go along with Lou, like Farmar(not a great shooter) or Rudy Fernandez (may not very fast). Those type of players give us youth and size. Portland's got a glut at their guard position. They need a floor general and experienced veteran. We have a couple of good passers in Williams and Iguadala. As someone else stated on another post, Williams did very well against Houston.

[docwasoverated]

Well, I guess I know why I do not understand it. It is way too complicated and I will just fall back on my basic premise ... leave it to Sixer management to do that stuff. They will do what they think is best and that will have to suffice. They made a fantastic move when they got Miller and they will probably handle things fine from here also.

dude,,two years after the sixers traded for miller,the nuggets were able to trade iverson for billips!what fanastic move are you seeing?! its obvious you and many on this site are ai haters but do you actually think that miller is better than billips? hows that trade look now...sucker!!

[tk76]

Huh? The AI trade was about clearing salary, getting picks and rebuilding. It was never about getting back superior talent.

As for Billups, we'll see how good he is his 35 in 2011-12 and still on the books for 14M. He's a great PG, but limits their financial flixibility whereas AI was a 22M expiring. That cap space probable could have been turned into a number of good young players had Denver not been chock full of so many horrible contracts. As it stands, Detroit plans on making a run at 2 stud FA's in 2010, and could get the last laugh big time if they land Lebron and Bosh.

Gong back to the Sixers AI trade, the team (right or wrong) decided it was not going to be able to build around AI, so went about trying to clear his 22M salary. You never expect to get back equal talent in that type of deal. If anything, many thought they should have tried to get back more expirings instead of Miller (so they could tank and get a higher pick.)

In the end it was a mixed bag. Miller and Joe Smith probably cost the team a shot at Oden or Durant (who went to the teams with the 6th and 7th worse records when the Sixers had the 12th pick, but had the 2nd worst record at the time of the trade.) But Thad was a steal at 12. They used the other picks for Jason Smith and cash (selling the second #1.)

Miller turned out to be a better player than expected, and surprisingly was not traded last year- but he was never billed to be better than AI.

[docwasoverated]

huh? so you agree with dond that it was a great trade and you have confidence that the sixers will handle the opcoming miller decision?

[tk76]

I don't know, but it's not the same management, so what does AI have to do with it?

[Skates]

huh? so you agree with dond that it was a great trade and you have confidence that the sixers will handle the opcoming miller decision?

It was not a great trade for the Sixers, a great trade is where you blow away the other team outcome-wise, like the Gasol trade for the Lakers last year. Given that AI was not a guy a lot of teams would touch, his salary and age, the Sixers trade was a good one in that it gave the team what it needed and took away what it could no longer live with. Comparing it to the billups trade is apples and oranges. Ai was an expiring contract who could still play for the rest of the year, Billups is the superior talent with a too long contract. Again, not a great trade for wither team. Unless you are suggesting that the Pistons would have traded us Billups several years ago, plus some other players to balance the trade out, there is no use in comparing the two deals.

As for my confidence in how they handle Miller, well that is likely to be the key to Stefanski's success or failure here. I can't say I am optimistic, in large part because their is a lack of good PG's in the league in general and even a breater lack of available ones.

[dbodner]

I can't say I am optimistic, in large part because their is a lack of good PG's in the league in general and even a breater lack of available ones.

I can't imagine a scenario where you get a PG (at least, a semi-established one) back for Miller. At best you get a project (think Crittenton type before he was dealt). Maybe Hinrich as an outside possibility if they're looking for a salary dump or you package him with Dalembert.

[The Sixer Fixer]

I can't imagine a scenario where you get a PG (at least, a semi-established one) back for Miller. At best you get a project (think Crittenton type before he was dealt). Maybe Hinrich as an outside possibility if they're looking for a salary dump or you package him with Dalembert.

Agree - I think there's very few non-project PG's who could be had in a deal for Miller. The only names that come to mind are Hinrich (as we have all discussed), Fleton, Ridnour and Tinsley (oh and Marbury, lmao).

Felton is not really a Larry Brown type PG and they have Augustine in waiting as the future. Felton is a RFA this year so they may be looking to move him before they have to decide on resigning him. Having said that, I have no interest in Felton on this team. He's an awful shooter and that's not what we need from that position.

Ridnour is not a legit replacement for Miller so I would not see a deal there.

Tinsley is a team cancer so I want him no where this young team.

My ideal scenario would have us getting a guy like Brad Miller for A. Miller. I think he's the type of player who would fit really well next to Brand. Sacramento needs a PG bad (Udrih sucks - they did sign him to a long deal though). Now would Andre re-sign there? Don't know, but with teams trying to save money for 2010, then maybe there's not a lot of great offers out there for him. Miller is going to be competing with PG's (or combo's) like Kidd, Iverson, Bibby, Felton, Jack and Sessions so who know what the offers will look like.

If we get B. Miller that makes Sam expendable for a project PG and help somewhere else (or maybe for Hinrich +).

[docwasoverated]

I don't know, but it's not the same management, so what does AI have to do with it?

i am not sure it isnt the same management...seems like alot of the same faces...with the exception of ed s.anyway my point is that most on this board think denver got a steal getting billips. they are the same people who liked the iverson/miller trade .haters

[tk76]

Personally, I think Detroit did better than Denver. AI could end up helping Detroit make a run this year if they ever mesh, but more important is his huge expiring contract. In 2 years Detroit will now be able to go after 2 max players. Billups is a good older player, but the back end of his deal will really limit Denver- who is already in a financial hole. Why they unloaded Camby for nothing just to take on Billups much longer deal is confusing.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Nothing earth shattering in this article (it was from last week), but I didn't see it posted anywhere so I figured I would offer it up. Talks about the idea or moving/resigning Miller.

http://www.courierpostonline.com/articl ... 6/sports03

The part that I found most interesting was that there really hasn't been any talks w/ Ed and Miller's agent on a new deal (we knew this a few months back, but nothing has changed). It was specualted, in the article, that's because neither side is sure they want Miller as a Sixer next year.

Miller also said he hasn't talked about a contract extension. Stefanski said he has talked to Miller's agent, Andy Miller (no relation), but that "both sides haven't decided what they want to do."

That could indicate that Miller isn't sure he wants to stay with the Sixers, just as much as the Sixers aren't sure they want him back.

"It's not really important right now," Miller said.

Having seen Miller's level of play over the last month or so, I'm falling back into "let's keep Miller" opinion. Everyone was hard on the fact that Iggy and Brand were not working before Brand got hurt, but the truth is Miller was just as much at fault during that stretch . He was god awful up through the end of November. Fact is, he then turned it around big-time (as did Iggy). Some may say..."see that means Miller and Brand can't play together", but think about last year...Miller did the exact same thing (iguodala did too). He got off to a bad start last year and then turned his season completely around. So can it be that Miller is just a slow starter and it's not about the fact that Brand and him or Brand and Iggy don't work? Miller is getting older so it's not surprising to see someone like him get off to slow starts. Both years he was working with a new set of starters next to him which I'm sure contributed to the slow starts as well.

At this point, I think a 2-3 yr extention for a reasonable amount might be the right move. He's probably still our best PG option for the next couple years. The best PG's in this years college class are all very young (or recently learning the position) so I don't think we can expect anyone to step in as a rookie and make a big impact. There's a lot worse things than learning the PG position from Miller.

If this team can sign a legit SG I really think the makeup of this team can work. Will that mean eventually moving someone else (maybe even Iggy or Thad) to aquire that SG? Possibly, but I say lets just let this thing play out a little longer before we go moving Miller without a clear replacement ready. That legit SG (I'm talking about a dead eye shooter) doesn't even have to be a starter IMO. It just needs to be a player who will play 30+ MPG between the SG/SF positions. Someone who we can mix and match differnt lineups with. I really think Mike Miller is an ideal fit for that role. I know people worry about Lou's minutes in that but I think there's enough to go around. It may require Lou playing some more PG, but the minutes are there.

[geiger]

Except that he might want longer than 2 years and what exactly is a reasonable amount? You expect him to take less money to stay here? He doesn't fit in particularly well with Brand. Never has. He can't run the pick and roll. He's a nice player though, but it's a huge risk to go into free agency without being sure that he wants to be back and will take a two year contract at reasonable money that would allow us to use the MLE and our first round pick without being a luxury tax team.

[The Sixer Fixer]

Except that he might want longer than 2 years and what exactly is a reasonable amount? You expect him to take less money to stay here? He doesn't fit in particularly well with Brand. Never has. He can't run the pick and roll. He's a nice player though, but it's a huge risk to go into free agency without being sure that he wants to be back and will take a two year contract at reasonable money that would allow us to use the MLE and our first round pick without being a luxury tax team.

There's a good chance he will come at a discount over what he would typically get. I don't mean a discount to re-sign here, I just mean a discount in general because I doubt there's going to be a lot of team lining up to offer him a huge deal (years or $$). With so many teams holding onto cap space for 2010, that takes some teams out of the mix. Then factor in a lot of teams already have their starting PG and how many teams does that leave? If some of these teams are in rebuilds, I doubt they will be situations that Miller wants to go to at this stage of his career.

Teams that I can't see having any interest in Miller are Boston, New Jersey, Toronto, Chicago, Detroit, Indiana, Charlotte, Cleveland, Washington, Orlando, New Orleans, San Antonio, Denver, Oklahoma City, Utah, LA Clippers and Phoenix. All those teams have their young future PG or a guy better currently than Miller.

That leaves these teams...
1 - NY Knicks - are they blowing their FA $$ on Miller. No way. They are out
2 - Milwaukee - set to be well over the cap next year so unless they get expirings, it won't happen.
3 -Atlanta - Bibby is a FA, would they prefer Miller over trying to re-sign Bibby?
4 - Miami - another team not looking to sign anyone (unless it's a stud - Boozer?) to long term deals before 2010.
5 - Dallas - Kidd is a FA - again, do they go after Miller vs. trying to retain Kidd? Over the cap anyhow.
6 - Houston - Alston stinks, but I think they will be over the cap too so can they make an offer?
7 - Memphis - do they give up on Conley (should IMO, he sucks). Is Miller a good fit there? Don't see it.
8 - Minnesota - do they give in and say Foye can't play the point? Another young team...does Miller fit?
9 - Portland - they will still have Blake, Bayless and Sergio under contract. Don't see Miller as a target for them.
10 - Golden St. - do they trade/dump Ellis or anyone else? If not, the won't have the cap space.
11 - LA Lakers - way over the cap. No chance they could sign him for more than the MLE.
12 - Sacramento - they signed Udrih to a long term deal and are over the cap as of now. Don't see the fit.

That's the 29 teams besides us.

Out of that list I would say VERY FEW are legit locations for Miller. I'd say the only teams that could even pull it off if they wanted to (and I doubt some do) are Atlanta, Miami, Memphis, Minnesota, Portland, Sacrmaento and us. I really don't see Memphis, Minnesota or Sacramento being of interest to Miller (or them in him).

So that leaves just Atlanta, Miami (Chalmers is a nice player, they may just stay with him since Wade does most of the ball handling anyhow) and Portland. Are any of those teams throwing a big offer Miller's way? Not likely. Of course teams can make moves that may change the current makeup of their team between now and FA, but I think the reality is that guys like Bibby, Miller and Kidd may just resign with their current teams because they will the the ones who can offer the best deals. With not a lot of options for those guys, their price should be down some. Is 7-8 mil/yr too much in your eyes?

[geiger]

The question will be years on the contract and where Miller wants to be. He's a West Coast guy who lives in the midwest and has lived there for many years. He wanted out of Cleveland, forcing them to deal him, went home to LA and then left after one season. He seems to prefer living in the Midwest and you can't just discount that. Clippers didn't account for Brand being an East Coast guy and look how that worked out for them. I hear what you're saying, but if Houston for example gave him 4 years at the full MLE, does it make sense for the Sixers, and does he agree to come back here for the same money? Same thing with Dallas - Kidd and Miller could play in the same back court there because Kidd primarily defends SGs anyway and while they would not be a very good long distance shooting back court, they compensate for that with Dirk. Any variety of things could happen is my only point. If you're not sure that you can retain Miller for a reasonable amount of years, than it makes more sense to move him now, when his value is high, and get something in return. If on the other hand, Sixers have had conversations with Miller and his agent, and they feel he'll take a two year extension for reasonable money here and that he fits with the current team - and Brand in particular - than it makes sense to keep him unless we can do better in a trade.

There are teams out there who would be interested and can make a decent offer. I still believe Portland, especially with the Miles situation likely to cost them $8 million off next year's cap space, would be open to moving Miller for Blake, Webster and Frye. Blake isn't as good a player as Miller but he and Webster give us shooting at reasonable money and allow us to have the cap space and luxury tax flexibility to still use our MLE and our first round pick and are younger. There might be other teams out there.

Basically, Sixers will have to make a decision on information that they have and we don't - namely, long term fit of Miller here, whether they are reasonably sure they can keep him for a reasonable amount of years if they believe he's a fit here and with minimal risk of losing him for nothing, and the value of offers that we might get if Miller is on the market. I can't proclaim that I know the answer to those questions. Personally, I really do like Miller and think he's a very good player, and is underrated for what he does, but I also think he's not the best long term fit here and that we can't have a starting line-up with 3 guys without a consistent deep jumper and three point shot together with Brand. And I do there is a big risk that Miller leaves in the off-season unless we're willing to overpay and give him more years - to the point where his desire to be closer to home is balanced out by additional money or contractual security. However, I'm also of the opinion that unless there is an offer that makes some sense for us long term, you don't just move a very good player without having at least something to show for him in the long term.

[The Sixer Fixer]

The question will be years on the contract and where Miller wants to be. He's a West Coast guy who lives in the midwest and has lived there for many years. He wanted out of Cleveland, forcing them to deal him, went home to LA and then left after one season. He seems to prefer living in the Midwest and you can't just discount that. Clippers didn't account for Brand being an East Coast guy and look how that worked out for them.

I think your facts are a litte off on Miller's history. I don't recall Miller ever being unhappy in Cleveland and asking out. What I do rememeber is that he was a pending RFA after the upcoming season. He wanted Cleveland to commit to a huge extenstion before he became a RFA. The Cavs were not prepared to give him that much money and the fear of not being able to re-sign him forced them to deal him to the Clippers. After that season with LA he was a RFA along with Brand, Maggette and Odom. The Clippers being the cheap team they were decided to match the offer Brand got in FA (also resigned Maggette and let Odom walk), but they did not match the one that Denver threw at Miller so he left.

Miller is a man of few words so I think it's hard to accurately say he wants to play out West more than here. I have seen no actual evidence of that. I think he was unhappy when he first came here because in general most players do not want to be traded. I think with Miller he wants to play in a system that pushed the ball up the court (read that a few times about him). He has that here. I think some players say they would rather play out West because the pace of the game out there has this stigma that it's faster paced. Fact is, there's some teams in the East that play that style too.

Also, on Brand, I don't particularily think his preference was to come back East. He said in this press conference that his wife was happy to come back because her family is still out here. With a baby on the way, I'm sure she liked the idea of being close to them. I don't think Brand ever said his preference was to come out East. I just think those other factors made it easier to accept. The thing Brand emphasized he liked about the Philly offer was that it was the "Philly Max" and that made him feel appreciated. A team wanted him so bad that they were willing to clear cap space (Carney/Booth deal) to offer him everything they could. That was compared to the Clips situation where they screwed around with him some and didn't initially offer him the most they could. I think Brand felt somewhat betrayed by them. Maybe the truth is he was impartial to whether he played out West or East and it was more about the surrounding circumstances.

On MIller, ultimately until someone can show me a legit replacmeent for Miller, I'm not prepared to move him just cause we are afraid he will walk for nothing. If that happes, we deal with it then. I see very few PG's on the market that would be good replacements for him.

Don't like Felton (he's a pending RFA anyhow). I would not trade Miller straight up for Hinrich. There would have to be something else incldued. Hinrich has a long contract and no fit on the Bulls and we should exploit that if we deal with them. He's not as good as Miller and it would not make sense to pay him 9-10 million/yr to downgrade. Who else is out there....don't want junk like Conley for him. I predicted Conley was going to struggle in the NBA and that's looking like the case. A small PG who can't shoot...not a good thing in the NBA. I'd rather have a much cheaper (in trade value) and IMO better player in Sergio Rodriguez or Sessions if we go that route. What other names are out there? Earl Watson...ugh. Ridnour...double ugh. Tinsley....no way! I don't think the Blazers would have any interest in Miller and Blake is not a good replacement anyhow. If they want to part with Bayless then maybe I will listen. I really don't see Miller fitting in what the Blazers are trying to do though and can't see them moving young pieces for a player who likely would only be there for half a season.

Basically right now I would rather take the approach to resing Miller to a deal of 3 yrs or less and draft a young PG to groom under Miller for a couple years. Worst case, Miller walks and we start either Lou or Ivey next year and still try to find the future PG in the draft. If someone wants to move a key peices to our future for Miller (at PG, SG, or C), then sure, deal him, but the names that are being thrown around are not difference makers IMO. Expiring contracts should be in high demand and we need to make sure we get great value for it and not just some role player who has a long bad contract.

[geiger]

Brand actually did speak about wanting to come back to the East coast for family reasons. Numerous articles where he said that.

And Cleveland did try to sign Miller before trading him, but he didn't particularly negotiate with them - he asked for more money than he got from Denver - sort of forced a trade. He couldn't wait to get out of LA and he and Brand didn't fit so great there either. Everyone on the Clippers bad mouthed him after he left, saying he played the whole year like a guy who couldn't wait to leave in free agency.

I think the Sixers would consider signing Miller to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal for about $6 to $8 million a year - maybe front loading the deal, but I am not so sure they are as sure as you are that he wants to stay here.

Agree 100% on Hinrich. It think if we do that deal, we should also be sending some contract their way. I proposed Miller, Dalembert and Rush or Marshall for Hinrich, Nocioni, Noah and Simmons. They get cap some cap space for 2010 and get shorter contracts and a legit center. We get Hinrich, who is a pretty decent fit with Williams and defensively at from shooting the 3, but isn't as good a player, scorer, or pure PG, but also get a serviceable back up forward who has a declining contract, which is a bit on the long side, but goes down every year, and a possible replacement for Dalembert at C in Noah - he and Speights would give us at least a potentially decent C combo.

[corwin]

Nice job in analyzing other team's needs Fixer. If most of those conclusions are true, that allows Ed to have a reasonable chance to re-sign Miller. He'll definitely get more than MLE from us if he wants to stay. I don't see why they can't offer him 20 to 25 million or so over 3 years with a significant buyout during the 3rd year if they want to move him then. Let's face it, if he is allowed to expire (we're than short a player). Unless Green, Evans or Dalembert are moved, this team is pretty much locked up just under the luxury tax for he next 3 years. I can live with that because I think most of the pieces are already her & I believe that Green & Evans can be moved for players who may be better fits as shooters, i.e. Matt Carroll or Kapono. I also think Ed will either be able to keep Ivey as a back-up PG or draft one this year to plug in that hole. I do worry about a developmental center if Dalembert is moved because I think that Speights & Jason Smith will each be more of a 4/5. That's pretty much why I advocate for a developmental center in any deals on the trade board & could see Noah, Ajinca, McGee or DeAndre Jordan as players coming back in deals with those teams. In any case, I'm not that impressed with the personnel of most of the other teams in the East & feel that we should be at worst a playoff team for the next 3/4 years.

[geiger]

If we offer him $25 over 3, you can forget about using the full MLE. We'd be relying on internal improvement and getting luck with our first round pick.

Don't think Javalee is leaving DC any time soon and Ajinca can't play. He'll be out of the league in 2 seasons. Another brilliant job by Jordan. Not sure DeAndre is available or that he's any great shakes. Clippers have Kaman, so they aren't looking for Dalembert and certainly don't want Miller.

If all you want is to be a playoff team, than we should keep Miller. If you want to compete for a title, we likely will have to move him if a good deal comes up. Chicago and Portland are probably our best trading partners.

[docwasoverated]

I didn't want t make my confusing, long winded post even more so

That would be an ideal scenario- allowing them to get a PG and use the MLE. They need to clear at least 4M of his 10M contract in order to use the full MLE and still not go over the tax.

i watched the portland/sixers game and the blazers need two things or they probably dont make the playoffs. a decent pg and heart. miller and evans is what they need. with all their potential assets they could get hinrich for us from chicago.we get a better outside shooting pg and a slightly better defender plus lose some salary( evans) while clearing more minutes for speights.i would hold firm on this deal because portland needs this. and it will help them.ok the cap people can look at this but we dont want back any other chit players( blake)or bad contracts

[tk76]

I am onboard with your plan to get Hinrich.

Do keep in mind that with Hinrich they would be too close to the tax to make an MLE signing this summer unless they somehow clear more cap space. You mention Evans, but I think his contract is a poison pill to almost any deal. Kimbo is not going anywheere.