Andre Miller

[geiger]

Brand actually did speak about wanting to come back to the East coast for family reasons. Numerous articles where he said that.

And Cleveland did try to sign Miller before trading him, but he didn't particularly negotiate with them - he asked for more money than he got from Denver - sort of forced a trade. He couldn't wait to get out of LA and he and Brand didn't fit so great there either. Everyone on the Clippers bad mouthed him after he left, saying he played the whole year like a guy who couldn't wait to leave in free agency.

I think the Sixers would consider signing Miller to a 2 or maybe 3 year deal for about $6 to $8 million a year - maybe front loading the deal, but I am not so sure they are as sure as you are that he wants to stay here.

Agree 100% on Hinrich. It think if we do that deal, we should also be sending some contract their way. I proposed Miller, Dalembert and Rush or Marshall for Hinrich, Nocioni, Noah and Simmons. They get cap some cap space for 2010 and get shorter contracts and a legit center. We get Hinrich, who is a pretty decent fit with Williams and defensively at from shooting the 3, but isn't as good a player, scorer, or pure PG, but also get a serviceable back up forward who has a declining contract, which is a bit on the long side, but goes down every year, and a possible replacement for Dalembert at C in Noah - he and Speights would give us at least a potentially decent C combo.

[corwin]

Nice job in analyzing other team's needs Fixer. If most of those conclusions are true, that allows Ed to have a reasonable chance to re-sign Miller. He'll definitely get more than MLE from us if he wants to stay. I don't see why they can't offer him 20 to 25 million or so over 3 years with a significant buyout during the 3rd year if they want to move him then. Let's face it, if he is allowed to expire (we're than short a player). Unless Green, Evans or Dalembert are moved, this team is pretty much locked up just under the luxury tax for he next 3 years. I can live with that because I think most of the pieces are already her & I believe that Green & Evans can be moved for players who may be better fits as shooters, i.e. Matt Carroll or Kapono. I also think Ed will either be able to keep Ivey as a back-up PG or draft one this year to plug in that hole. I do worry about a developmental center if Dalembert is moved because I think that Speights & Jason Smith will each be more of a 4/5. That's pretty much why I advocate for a developmental center in any deals on the trade board & could see Noah, Ajinca, McGee or DeAndre Jordan as players coming back in deals with those teams. In any case, I'm not that impressed with the personnel of most of the other teams in the East & feel that we should be at worst a playoff team for the next 3/4 years.

[geiger]

If we offer him $25 over 3, you can forget about using the full MLE. We'd be relying on internal improvement and getting luck with our first round pick.

Don't think Javalee is leaving DC any time soon and Ajinca can't play. He'll be out of the league in 2 seasons. Another brilliant job by Jordan. Not sure DeAndre is available or that he's any great shakes. Clippers have Kaman, so they aren't looking for Dalembert and certainly don't want Miller.

If all you want is to be a playoff team, than we should keep Miller. If you want to compete for a title, we likely will have to move him if a good deal comes up. Chicago and Portland are probably our best trading partners.

[docwasoverated]

I didn't want t make my confusing, long winded post even more so

That would be an ideal scenario- allowing them to get a PG and use the MLE. They need to clear at least 4M of his 10M contract in order to use the full MLE and still not go over the tax.

i watched the portland/sixers game and the blazers need two things or they probably dont make the playoffs. a decent pg and heart. miller and evans is what they need. with all their potential assets they could get hinrich for us from chicago.we get a better outside shooting pg and a slightly better defender plus lose some salary( evans) while clearing more minutes for speights.i would hold firm on this deal because portland needs this. and it will help them.ok the cap people can look at this but we dont want back any other chit players( blake)or bad contracts

[tk76]

I am onboard with your plan to get Hinrich.

Do keep in mind that with Hinrich they would be too close to the tax to make an MLE signing this summer unless they somehow clear more cap space. You mention Evans, but I think his contract is a poison pill to almost any deal. Kimbo is not going anywheere.

[geiger]

Sixers are in a bad spot with contracts that Billy King left them. There is no way to get around it. Fact of the matter is, with the cap and the luxury tax likely to go down, and with most teams gearing up to free up cap space for the free agent class of 2010, I don't think anyone will take Dalembert, Evans, or Green off our hands unless we take worse players on contracts that run just as long or longer. No one wants deals that go past 2010. Being that we're also not dealing Brand right now, and that presumably we want to build around Iguodala and Williams, who are both nearly impossible to trade this season because of they are BYC players, and that Young and Speights are the future, that doesn't give Sixers a lot of room for making moves. Marshall, Theo, Rush, and Ivey are guys who next you a 2nd round pick. Smith isn't getting dealt while he's out for the year with a torn ACL. That pretty much leaves Miller as the only viable trading commodity that could net us something of value in return. As TK notes, the question becomes as to whether you think you can re-sign Miller and for how many years and at how much, and whether he's a better fit here than Hinrich. If we get Hinrich, we likely will not be able to give anyone the full MLE.

The good thing about Hinrich's deal is that it goes down in value - he is making $10 this year, $9.5 next year, then $9, and $8. That being said, if the Bulls want to free up more salary and desire Miller's expiring contract, or if we get involved in a three team trade, if the Sixers add Hinrich, and a first round pick, that's that. No MLE signing. All we can do is sign a few guys for the minimum. We'll be a luxury tax team. Presuming Ivey exercises his player option, and Smith replaces Marshall on the roster, we'll have to either re-sign Theo to another one year deal for the minimum or find a similar player, and will have to replace Rush with another one year minimum signing.

Then again, if we try to re-sign Miller, to allow us to use the MLE, he would have to agree to a deal that pays him in the $5 to $5.5 million range - basically under the MLE. That's not likely, and if he does, he'll want 4 to 5 years guaranteed, even though he's turning 33 this season. So then, long term, for the next 3 seasons, would you rather have Miller or Hinrich at the point?

No question that Miller is the better player and the better point guard, but I actually think Hinrich might end up being the better fit here. He can play more effectively with Lou, he's a better perimeter defender, and he's got solid three point range. He's still not a great shooter and can't get in the lane or run the team like Miller, but we're increasingly more reliant on Iggy and Williams to create for both themselves and others, and in time, Young likely will need the ball a bit as well. With Blake out for a while, I'm not sure what other deal are out there for the Sixers. They might be forced to stay pat.

Just goes to show you how stupid Billy King's moves were. If we kept Steven Hunter, who comes off the books after 2010, we would have little trouble moving him, even though he's shot and isn't even playing, but we can't move Evans. He signed an undersized role playing SG to a 5 year guaranteed deal after an ACL injury when no one else was going to pay him over the minimum. And he gave Sammy both too much money and too many years based on everything we know about him. Now the Sixers have their hands tied. We basically have to hope and pray that we can get a good deal for Miller and get very lucky with our first round pick for the third year in a row and find a gem who is ready to step in and contribute right away.

[freshie2]

Miller is a tough situation. I've never been a big fan of Hinrich, but agree with Geiger that a deal of Miller/Sam/Rush for Hinrich/Noah/Hughes may be something to consider. Miller has tremendous value, but if he's not here long term you really waste an asset by not moving him. If Iguodala and Thad continue to develop and play at a high level, Hinrich is more than adequate at the point for the foreseeable future. You take a little bit of a gamble that Noah matures, but if he matures, he gives you a player with a better game IQ than Sam who still contributes in a similar manner (defense/rebounding). Looking to next season, you have a big man rotation of Brand/Evans/Speights/Smith/Noah...not a dominant center, but very good depth/athleticism across the front with a bright future (I was really high on what Smith would bring off the bench this season...hoping he continues to develop before next season).

To me, the issue is maintaining the identity of this team while building around the core of young players (Lou/Iguodala/Thad/Speights)...fit the other pieces in around those 4 to make it work. Ivey has played very well of late as well, and is under contract for another season...his signing may prove to be a steal as well. The jumper has improved, and he's a high energy/defense first presence out there. If Thad and Iguodala prove to be the consistent scoring duo, a player like Ivey could be a fit at the point as well.

[IversonsMother]

Anybody that wants Hinrich over Miller at pg is absolutely crazy IMO.

[sixerswillrule]

Younger? Yes
Better outside shooter? Yes
Better defender? Yes

Not so crazy...

[geiger]

Miller is a free agent at the end of the season and he turns 33 this season. Sometimes, it pays to think a few months into the future. The reason why Sixers have been a bad franchise over the years is precisely because they haven't done that.

[IversonsMother]

Younger? Yes
Better outside shooter? Yes
Better defender? Yes

Not so crazy...

Younger? Yes
Better outside shooter? Yes
Better defender? No
Better point guard? No
Better on the break? No
Better player? No

For some reason, people on this board over rate his defense. I have watched him since college, have had the league pass several years and have watched him play a lot. His defense is not good at all. He gets lit up quite regularly.

If Miller says he absolutely is not coming back, i would consider the move. If we can snag Miller for another two years, I would keep him in a heartbeat.

[Philly76ersFan]

Hinrich is unquestionably a better defensive player than Miller. He is not the better player overall however, and is certainly not the better point guard. The biggest two problems with Miller are his age - he turns 33 this season, and hardly any point guards don't decline pretty steeply by the time they hit that 34 to 35 area of their career, and the fact that he has shown little interest in talking about an extension and might walk away after the season, forcing Sixers to fill two holes while having financial flexibility to only deal with one, and likely signing a far inferior player as well. Having Hinrich would be both a good fit in terms of his play and his age, and in terms of providing long term stability and ability to plan. However, we than would not have the flexibility to use our MLE next season and would have to find a smooth shooting swingman with our first round pick.

[sixerswillrule]

Have you watched Miller defend this season? There are very few point guards that can't easily get right by him. You must be the only one who believes that Miller is the better defender. People on this board? How about everyone everywhere, because Hinrich is know league-wide as an above average defender. Miller has become a below average defender.

Hinrich from 06-07 IS just as good, if not better, than Miller. And with all of the talent that he would be surrounded with on this team, I see no reason why can't return to that same form if he were to come here. Even if that weren't true and Hinrich could never be as good as Miller, that still doesn't mean that he couldn't make us a better team. With Brand here, Hinrich is the better fit. And that's the bottom line. When Brand comes back now, I would love for him and Miller to play well together. But I just don't see that happening. This is all disregarding the fact that he is FIVE YEARS YOUNGER. I would swap Miller for Hinrich in a heartbeat...

[IversonsMother]

I would argue that Miller is just as good a defender as Hinrich, actually, in the last few minutes of games, Miller usually steps up his d and is a better defender... I'm telling yas, I have watched Hinrich for a while, if he were here it would not be long before everyone is complaining..


Not too mention, he is not a fast break point guard. If we had him, we would be in a worse position than before. Half the team fast break players, half as half court players.

I still think we can find a way to win with Brand here. Whether it means cutting his minutes, or bringing him off the bench.

[Philly76ersFan]

Hinrich can run on the fast break. What does it mean that he's not a fast break PG? Any NBA PG can run the fast break. He has no issues with speed or quickness and he's definitely a better defender at the point than Miller. It's not even close on the defensive end. Hinrich is far superior to Miller defensively at both PG and SG. He's quicker, longer, he moves his feet better, and he is more involved. He's not as good at throwing the long outlet pass, but I'm not sure if anyone in the NBA is as good as MIller in that. And Sixers absolutely must win with Brand. He is a center piece player and a key cog for the future. He has a long contract and while it might take him until the end of this season to get his legs back, he's a very good player, a legit 18 to 20 point a game player who also plays solid defense, blocks shots, rebounds, and is a good guy in the locker room.

Below is the scouting report on both in terms of defense.

Defensively, Miller was adequate but hardly exceptional. He had to guard shooting guards fairly often because he was paired with Louis Williams or Kevin Ollie in the backcourt quite a bit, and seemed to struggle with that assignment. It would help if he were in better shape, but he does help out on the boards and gave a decent effort.

Hinrich is an agile defender who can guard either backcourt spot, though he gives up inches at the 2 and tends to get into foul trouble at that position -- his 3.82 fouls per 40 minutes were the most of any point guard who played at least 2,000 minutes. He takes charges, too, earning 28 offensive foul calls last season.

Most telling part of the report on Hinrich comes at the end - "[H]e may need to go somewhere that has a quality penetrator and creator at the 2 so he doesn't have to take on that role. Certainly he still has value, but this team may no longer be the best fit for his skills."

Now of any team that has a quality penetrator who is a solid distributor, like say a team with an Andre Iguodala?

Again, no question that Miller is the better overall player and the better PG. At the end, it will come down to his contract and his age. Always better to be prepared and be forward thinking and plan for the future. The Sixers biggest problem as a team has been failure to anticipate the future and plan for 2 to 3 years ahead.

[IversonsMother]

I'm not gonna argue. I know what I have seen with my own eyes. I'm not gonna go by some random scouting report. Neither is a great defender. I would take whoever could run the team better, which in my opinion, is Miller.

[bigdavid]

Age is simply a number. Miller keeps himself in great shape and could play another 3to 5 years, He is a smart point guard and has a great move to the rim.

Great point guards do not go alomg very often and Miller is a great one, We must re-sign him.

[The Guilty Party]

It's not up to just us as far as whether he re-signs here. Presumably, we need to convince Miller to not only stay on the East Coast but we will also need to convince him that he will like playing for our new coach (Eddie Jordan??).

I have little faith that Miller wants to stay here hence I'd look to move him at the deadline. If he or his agent gives Ed a STRONG indication that he would re-sign, my strategy would change.

[Don]

I would take whoever could run the team better, which in my opinion, is Miller.

You're not alone. I believe most analysts and fans understand that Miller is the better pg and can run the team better in the short run. Age isn't just a number, and there is clearly a dropoff for most players during the mid-30's. I think that has been discussed quite a bit on other thread on this site over the past many months. If we're planning for the next 5 years, Hinrich MAY be a possibility, but I don't envision him in the short term to just step in and become that pg that's going to make this team an immediate contender for the East. I'm not saying I definitely don't want him, but it's a tough call. I think Miller might still be good for the next couple of years, although I don't expect him to suddenly develop an outside shot like Iguadala's done recently.

[Don]

This is the question: Are we trying to win right away, or are we building towards becoming very good, and is Miller or Hinrich the one to guide the team to greatness? Honestly I don't know that either will run the team well enough to becoming a champion. That's just my feeling, not based in any facts.

Consider that none of the recent champions had an incredible distributor/shooter like a Kidd, Nash, Stockton or Paul. The only one I can think of is Magic back in the 80's, and he was a solid all-around superstar. So all that rambling to say that I think the cast of Dre(seems there already), Thad, Will, and Speights really have to blossom in order for the team to truly contend. In that sense, we would be looking at the future of a few years from now, and hence I would probably gamble taking Hinrich if there are no better possibilities for pg.