Beyond EJ- Time for the Nuclear Option

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

I know what the Chris Webber ERA was. I know what kind of player he was. To say Elton Brand= Chris Webber in production is just being very, very heavily shortsighted.

Do you want me to remind you? Firstly, take a look at Brand's past five games

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/p ... layerId=91

Elton Brand has done a terrific job battling in the low-block and drawing contact this season. Two things Webber NEVER did in his time in Philadelphia. Infact, remember 2-3 years ago his first game against the Sacramento Kings? It was ironic. We needed a tip-in for the win, A.I deliberately misses the free throw and Webber couldn't make the bunny.

That literally signified what Webber was. a 6'10 shooting guard that was a waste of a roster-spot. Webber shot jumpers, not because it was his bread and butter. But because it was all he could do. He was a player on a hobbled leg for the rest of his career.

Elton Brand is a multi-dimensional player. His jumpshot opens up driving lanes, which inevitably turn into free throws or dunks, we've seen Brand be very aggressive as this season's developed.

Elton Brand has given this team a dimension this year, and quite frankly it's unfair to Elton Brand: He does what he needs to do to come back. He plays well, and fans still want him gone. Philadelphia fans have wanted E.B. Gone since 9-14 of a year ago.

In all honesty: We were always a couple of pieces away. And none of the poor perimeter defense, poor substitutions and roster flaws are Elton Brand's fault.

Fans have long wanted him gone, I appreciate him. I appreciate him because he brings a level of play to the team. He wants to win.

More then I can say for a douchebag who abandoned us on a season where the team was horrible and where he stunk it up on his way to his retirement.

Say what you will about the cap, etc. But Brand is No Webber. On and off the court.

[tk76]

You missed the point...

CWebb was averaging 21ppg, 9.7 blks, 5.5 asst and 1.5 st for the Kings the year he was traded to the Sixers. He was putting up huge numbers. He was productive at a level well above any Sixer big man since Barkley.

The point is putting up big numbers as a PF on a losing team does not always equate to still being the star player you once were.

I think with the right coach Brand could put up 20/10/2 this year just like his career average. But it would be a less impactful 20/10/2 because he would still not be the player he once was. Just like with CWebb and his huge numbers before the trade.

...The Kings just know how to showcase a star big who has lost his lift. And EJ is an idiot.

[Mojo7]

You missed the point...

CWebb was averaging 21ppg, 9.7 blks, 5.5 asst and 1.5 st for the Kings the year he was traded to the Sixers. He was putting up huge numbers. He was productive at a level well above any Sixer big man since Barkley.

The point is putting up big numbers as a PF on a losing team does not always equate to still being the star player you once were.

I think with the right coach Brand could put up 20/10/2 this year just like his career average. But it would be a less impactful 20/10/2 because he would still not be the player he once was. Just like with CWebb and his huge numbers before the trade.

...The Kings just know how to showcase a star big who has lost his lift. And EJ is an idiot.

Agreed. So, if Brand can show that he is performing at a respectable level, and CLE is trailing BOS, ORL and LA, on a level with ATL, do you think they might bite? Considering James might start squawking a little bit and pushing for moves?

Also, just to be clear: The only way I'm talking GSW is for Randolph, maybe Biedrens too.

[Dedicated_76ers_fan]

How do we automatically come to the assumption that Brand's not the player he once was? What kind of proof do we have of that?

Is Brand our #1 option? Hell, the fact that we start Willie Green over him should answer that question.

Elton Brand has been getting his points off being at the right place at the right time. By drawing contact, by making free throws.

He's been doing what any elite big man would do. And only, only in Philadelphia can it be said he's "not the player he once was".

[tk76]

So, if Brand can show that he is performing at a respectable level, and CLE is trailing BOS, ORL and LA, on a level with ATL, do you think they might bite? Considering James might start squawking a little bit and pushing for moves?

No. I think Cleveland would be fearful of losing James and then being stuck with Brand and his contract.

But like we discussed elsewhere, maybe they'd consider Iguodala/Brand for Shaq/Z. then we cut Shaq and Z so they can return to Cleveland. Giving away Iguodala could be the sweetener needed to get completely out from under both of their contracts in once fell swoop.

Would be a huge financial risk for the cCavs, and the Sixers would be falling on their sword in the hope of rebuilding from scratch with the young guys.

[tk76]

How do we automatically come to the assumption that Brand's not the player he once was? What kind of proof do we have of that?

1. No proof, just my opinion. I could be wrong, but its a discussion board.

2. Even if Brand was 100% back to his prime I'd still look at the rest of the roster and the cap numbers and conclude he should be unloaded if possible.

[ChuckS]

[quote] "Trade away both Iguodala and Brand. Do whatever is necessary to get out from those contracts- even if it costs talent and leaves the team a disgrace. As long as you hold onto 1st round picks."


It will never make sense to me to try to get better by getting rid of our best players.

We got rid of Wilt and Moses after winning championships primarily because of them. We dumped Barkley for three players arguably better than any we will get in any draft. We dumped $20 million of Ivy's salary, and yet here we are.

When are we going to stop doing these things? Teams that win championships do so because of good players and not cap space or youngsters who will never be as good as them.


[quote] "I'm not trying to minimize what Iguodala brings. I call it the nuclear option for a reason. You detroy any chance of winning for a long time in the hope that starting from scratch is better than being painted into a corner with expanding contracts."


Has anyone been watching for the last few decades? This is already a wasteland. Yeah! We really need a nuclear option.

I suggest doing something stupid like the Spurs and Lakers. How about keeping our best players while developing young backups, or making wise trades to replace older veterans with those who can still perform.

It seems to me that the league's better teams find a way to survive and perpetuate even with the restrictions of the cap and luxury tax. I think fans worry too much about financial contracts and too little about talent. Of course this would not be necessary with good GMs who could be trusted with such concerns.

[tk76]

I suggest doing something stupid like the Spurs and Lakers. How about keeping our best players while developing young backups, or making wise trades to replace older veterans with those who can still perform.

It seems to me that the league's better teams find a way to survive and perpetuate even with the restrictions of the cap and luxury tax. I think fans worry too much about financial contracts and too little about talent. Of course this would not be necessary with good GMs who could be trusted with such concerns.

Fair points, but that implies someone will trade you Shaq or give you the rights for Kobe in exchange for Vlade. It assumes you get the #1 overall twice like the Spurs (who won only 20 games in 1996 (tanking after Robinson went down?) and only 21 games in 1988 in order to land Robinson and Duncan. How good are they without those two horrible losing seasons?

The more common road to success is to lose 60 games, then draft an MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Howard, Wade, Duncan, Robinson and ride them to a finals appearance within 4 years.

[tk76]

IMO the model good franchise is Utah. They rarely have down years, and only make a few mistakes (AK47.) That gets you well executed basketball and the playoffs but no rings and rarely to the Finals... sort of sounds like the Andy Reid era.

I'd love to have the Sixers be that consistently successful. but still it does not get you a parade because they have not been lucky enough to land a top 5 superstar in the draft (or by trade.)

[bebopdeluxe]

Really would have liked to see what this squad could have done with a real GD coach.

Word, bro.

I voted for the nuclear option, but I would first prefer seeing what this squad could do with a coach with a clue. I really do think that a lineup of Jrue/Iggy/Thad/EB/Speights (with Iggy merely becoming an average stationary shooter and Speights becoming an average defender) could be the foundation of a 50+ win team WITH A COACH THAT HAS A FREAKING CLUE.

[Mojo7]

So, if Brand can show that he is performing at a respectable level, and CLE is trailing BOS, ORL and LA, on a level with ATL, do you think they might bite? Considering James might start squawking a little bit and pushing for moves?

No. I think Cleveland would be fearful of losing James and then being stuck with Brand and his contract.

But like we discussed elsewhere, maybe they'd consider Iguodala/Brand for Shaq/Z. then we cut Shaq and Z so they can return to Cleveland. Giving away Iguodala could be the sweetener needed to get completely out from under both of their contracts in once fell swoop.

Would be a huge financial risk for the cCavs, and the Sixers would be falling on their sword in the hope of rebuilding from scratch with the young guys.

I don't know. They seem pretty desperate. It really depends on their status in Feb. If they are in the lower end of the elites and struggling to stay above water, so to speak, I think they could bite. Especially if the visible hole in their situation is a big that can score, defend and space the floor(a rich man's Joe Smith), yet be humble enough to play within the team. If LeBron is rumbling about going elsewhere...

If CLE is flying high in Feb, then all bets are off.

[KKell2507]

I know im in the extreme minority here, but i truly think this team as currently constructed is VERY talented. I see this current team really only missing two things: structure as a team and great preformances in the clutch.

1. The structure as a team is in reference to the coaching. This team hasnt had a legitimate coach with legitimate standards that held players accountable for the most important aspect of basketball: defense. There is no doubt in my mind that we would be battling up in the top of the east if Larry Brown or someone of similar defensive magnitude was coaching this team. They finally have the scoring this year that if they had any sort of defense they would be winning basketball games. Theyve got 6 guys that could score 20 pts on a night if its needed(AI, Iggy, Lou, Thad, Brand, Speights). Give that to Larry Brown and this team would be battling up in the east around where Atlanta is right now.

2. There missing great performances in the clutch. Weve lost so many games that people seem to forget that nearly every single one has been very close and come down to the last few possessions in the game. Its when we needed a clutch defensive stop or a clutch hoop late that we dont get it and end up losing the game. A defensive minded coach would help the clutch defense because they would just being playing defense in general. As far as on offense, AI could still be that guy for this year as we havent really seen him in that situation yet since hes come back.

I dont know what the best option is to do player wise, but i do know one thing, a defensive coach would have this team playing good basketball no matter what player changes we made.

[Mojo7]

I suggest doing something stupid like the Spurs and Lakers. How about keeping our best players while developing young backups, or making wise trades to replace older veterans with those who can still perform.

It seems to me that the league's better teams find a way to survive and perpetuate even with the restrictions of the cap and luxury tax. I think fans worry too much about financial contracts and too little about talent. Of course this would not be necessary with good GMs who could be trusted with such concerns.

Fair points, but that implies someone will trade you Shaq or give you the rights for Kobe in exchange for Vlade. It assumes you get the #1 overall twice like the Spurs (who won only 20 games in 1996 (tanking after Robinson went down?) and only 21 games in 1988 in order to land Robinson and Duncan. How good are they without those two horrible losing seasons?

The more common road to success is to lose 60 games, then draft an MJ, Shaq, Hakeem, Ewing, Howard, Wade, Duncan, Robinson and ride them to a finals appearance within 4 years.

1st, Jordan, Robinson, Ewing did not get to the Finals within 4 years (7 for MJ, 11 for Robinson, 9 for Ewing). In fact, of your list, the only one who got there within 4 years without another member of your list was Howard, who lost. LeBron meets that standard as well. So, in order to create this rapid turnaround and win, we'd have to draft a superstar, then acquire another superstar on top of it.

2nd, there is another model out there. The reason the Pistons model worked for 2 seasons in a row was because they were an elite defensive team that played efficient offense and had a closer. That's what's needed. Championship teams don't require guys who can drop 50, not in this era. Could it help? Sure. But its not required. Championship teams tend to be high-level on both offense and defense or elite-level on one side of the ball while being solidly consistent & effective in the other.

Its like Football in that way; you could be the Rams or the Ravens, who both won Super Bowls tilted heavily on one side. Or you could be the Steelers or the Pats, who were more balanced.

Hoops examples of "Ravens" types during this decade would be the Pistons & Celtics. The "Rams" would be 09 Lakers. The Steelers/Pats type teams would be the Lakers Three-peat, The Spurs title teams or the 2006 Heat.

Now, could the Sixers mimic that? Granted, given their roster, they'd probably be better off going for the "Ravens/Pistons" model, hopefully moving toward the Spurs type of sustained contention built primarily on elite D.

IMO, the better questions are:

1) Do you think they could be an elite defensive team?

Assuming the right coach is brought in, yes. Jrue/Dala at the guard is a lockdown on the perimeter. A true defensive anchor is needed, but there are potential players like that who might be available(Aldrich, Favors, Alabi). Who knows, maybe use your expiring deals next year to snag Gortat from Orlando, if he keeps bitching. Or, if you could use Brand to pry Randolph loose, that could work too.

2) Assuming they find a def mastermind capable of raising them to elite-level D, does the talent currently exist on the roster that could be potentially become a solidly efficient offensive unit?

IMO, I see 2 20 ppg scorers in Thad & Speights and 1 perfect complementary fill-in-the-blanks type in Iguodala, plus a promising future floor leader in Jrue. They could get there, with the right coaching and player development.

3) Do you believe the future closer(s?) is already here?

Mind you, I am not saying having the closer means having a guy go spread-iso for the last 2 min of every game. I'm saying a guy, who if you run a play that gets him a good look, you have confidence he will make a winning play, pass or shot. Dala has hit numerous big shots in both the reg and post-season, Thad has a game-winner in the post-season too. Speights hit clutch shots vs Boston & LA Clippers down the stretch. All I am willing to say right now is maybe on that. Jury is still out.

[P2K]

Pistons' model worked ONCE. People really need to stop bringing them up. That team was a once in a blue moon squad coming out of a bad conference.

You're not getting past the Dancing LeBrons, Celtics, Magic or even the Hawks with the talent on this team, even with a legit coach. Iguodala is not a player to build around, nor is anyone else on this team.

I know some are stubborn to the concept, but you have to have a superstar. The league is built around that concept.

[ChuckS]

[quote] "I know some are stubborn to the concept, but you have to have a superstar. The league is built around that concept."


We had one for ten years and made one finals. We've won two championships in over forty years. This blow everything up and suffer for ten more years is just ridiculous for me. I might not have ten more years. And after a few decades of that you might not want ten more years.

Doesn't anyone just enjoy watching good basketball anymore? I understand championships can give us something we are missing in our personal lives, but fans wanting bad basketball by plan, or intent, just does not make sense to me. It seems antithetical to what sports should be about.

It should be such a beautiful team game. I will not discount the Detroit model. Is it more fun to watch New Orleans than Atlanta this year? How many Shaqs are there and what are the chances of getting one of the few in the lottery, and especially in the one year you have the number one pick? How did the Clippers do even with some great picks? I think the secret of enjoyable basketball is more the good team part, than the superstar thing.

There can also be beauty in watching five good players, playing good team ball, for a good coach. A potential superstar will always seek such a destination. I'm surprised that with so many statisticians on this board that we believe the odds of tanking to get a superstar are so good just because it happened with Duncan. Hell, even if we get lucky and draft one, he will most likely want to go to LA or NY for the shoe dollars before he is ready to provide a championship.

If we legitimately suck and land a good player who ultimately leads us to a championship, I will not object, although it is hard for me to trust to luck, and I will not enjoy the losing part. But to intentionally self inflict horrible basketball just seems wrong to me on so many levels, but primarily because of my love for the game itself.

[76ers76ers]

Pistons' model worked ONCE. People really need to stop bringing them up. That team was a once in a blue moon squad coming out of a bad conference.

You're not getting past the Dancing LeBrons, Celtics, Magic or even the Hawks with the talent on this team, even with a legit coach. Iguodala is not a player to build around, nor is anyone else on this team.

I know some are stubborn to the concept, but you have to have a superstar. The league is built around that concept.

Agreed, once the refs and the league know one is a superstar...........the treatment will come. Therefore a winning formula!!

[83SixersRocked]

I didnt vote. I just don't know anymore.

I'd spare the nuke for the coaching staff and wrap em in a long string of firecrackers, it'd be more entertaining that way. Raffle off the match that gets to light 'em, they may make a few bucks. Bring in Thibodeau (and keep McKie).

I dont think there are any doable trades that change the 6ers quickly, unless its something like Iguodala and Sam for McGrady and Battier, letting McGrady walk at the end of the year (he's an expiring, yes?). And I havent thought through hat would be next. As Mojo said, Gortat would be nice. Do we match up?

Im off to CO to freeze my nads off for a few days, maybe that'll put some perspective on it. Have a Merry Christmas everybody. "We'll get 'em next year".

[76ers76ers]

Would the Spurs trades Jefferson, and Ginobli for Iggy and Brand. Their lineup would be:
C-Duncan
PF-Brand
SF-Igoudala
SG-Mason
PG-Parker

Not bad of a lineup. And is Ginobli even playing??

[corwin]

I voted no because I don't think the nuclear option is possible. To trade Brand right now would require moving at least one of the young guys. Bad move. I really don't see Brand as lacking in value & I think his game is slowly coming around. However, he is seen as negative value on these boards & will not be easily moved until he continues to play well. Iguodala could be moved but teams are going to want to send back significant salary.

The real problem is the coach & front office. ES will not fire EJ so we're stuck with a mediocre & clueless coach for at least this year. I think the team should play out the string, try to trade Dalembert (as teams need a center & as his salary kicker shrinks he should be easier to move) & then clean house over the summer. That means firing the FO & coach. Then allow a new GM & a defensive minded coach to come in & decide if Brand, Iguodala, Williams or Young should be moved. I would imagine that offers & the draft pick will help decide who goes & who stays.

[tk76]

Mojo, you are right about the details of my exaggerated statement- but the general premise holds true.

It may have taken more than four years for many of the top 5 picks for 60+ loss teams to get to the finals... but most of those teams were very good and legit contenders within 4 years:

Shaq: 21 win team -> finals in 2 years
Howard: 21 win team -> 52 wins, conf finals 4 years, Finals 5 years
Ewing: 23 win team -> 52 wins, conf semi-finals 3 years
Jordan: 27 win team -> 50 wins win team -> conf finals in 4 years
Robinson: 21 win team -> 56 wins, conf semi-finals in 1 year!
Duncan: 20 win (tanking) team -> 56 wins, conf semi-finals in 1 year, Won Finals next year
Iverson: 18 win team -> 49 wins, conf semi-finals in 4 years, Finals 5 years
Lebron: 17 win team -> 50 wins, conf semi-finals in 3 year, finals 4 years
Wade: 25 win team -> 59 wins, conf finals in 2 years!, won finals in 3 years
Hakeem: 29 win team -> 51 wins, Finals in 1 year!


This list accounts for the majority of NBA champions in the past 20+ years. They had a 20-26 win season and were quickly in the hunt within 1-4 years (most cases 3 years.) Sure there were extenuating circumstances. Just like there are for the Sixers (they have much more talent than a typical 25 win team.)

And I realize lots of teams stay bad and go to the lottery year after year... But we are talking about the teams that have won- and these teams all were very bad and turned it around quickly after they bottomed out and got a top 5 pick.

The Sixers last top 5 pick was AI.