ImageImageImage

Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 33,789
And1: 21,795
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#141 » by lilfishi22 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:36 pm

sasquatchBob wrote:I watched Celtics vs Raptors before watching this game and I can confidently say that currently Suns are far from Boston's level. Celtics are very cohesive. This team looks messy. Only thing I know is that we try to outscore the opponent.

Defense is not there at all. I actually like Nurkic as a player. He plays physical and smart. Kind of like a better Saric version. But he's so so slow. I'm not even sure he should start over Eubanks. Eubanks can match Bookers energy and be a solid defender.

Speaking of Booker. He really looks like he CAN run the PG position. CP3 has thought him poise. What an awesome player Booker is! I think he will be one of MVP candidates this year.

It's why the Celtics are widely considered to be the most talented team and were the preseason favourites, even ahead of the Nuggets.
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 33,789
And1: 21,795
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#142 » by lilfishi22 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 10:53 pm

SkyBill40 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Win or lose, some posters bring the same negative Nancy energy. Credits where credits due for the consistency, I'll give them that.

In a season where we're 6-6 when we expect to be 10-2, I'm taking each win as a positive
It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 33,789
And1: 21,795
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#143 » by lilfishi22 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:13 pm

enigmatics wrote:
sunsbum wrote:Too much expectations from suns fans so far. As Juice said it’s a brand new team. Vogel is still figuring out rotations, defense isn’t there yet, roleplayers have to figure how to play along side 2 superstars. I’ve definitely seen some improvement. Can’t expect it overnight and once we get going we may take another step back when Beal gets healthy and integrates himself.

Another thing, I know Book is severely underrated around the league and on other boards but damn this guy just keeps getting better. No reason a single suns fan should ever have anything bad to say about him…


The issue I think for the pessimists and perhaps even some cautiously optimistic fans - they sold this team as championship material.

The moment they scrapped together a Big 3 they immediately were gonna be held accountable. They didn't help themselves that they clearly acquired damaged goods in Beal, especially for a team that is extremely top heavy that had never played together.

There's a realization/realignment of expectations happening that is uncomfortable for a lot of people based on the above. I myself have gone from "they need time" to "they need time, but the warts they do have are obvious."

Every contender or fringe contender is sold on this even though in reality only one team can actually win the championship. Unless that isn't the goal like lottery teams or teams looking to make a jump to the next level, teams are going to publicly sell their championship ambitions.

As for the warts, they can be dealt with, this is a long season and I don't believe anyone expects this team at the end of the season will look exactly the same as the team right now.
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 33,789
And1: 21,795
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#144 » by lilfishi22 » Sat Nov 18, 2023 11:44 pm

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2333554
A bit late to the game but vote for your Nashty of the game !
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame
User avatar
SkyBill40
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,058
And1: 3,888
Joined: Oct 24, 2014
Location: Phoenix
       

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#145 » by SkyBill40 » Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:33 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
SkyBill40 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Win or lose, some posters bring the same negative Nancy energy. Credits where credits due for the consistency, I'll give them that.

In a season where we're 6-6 when we expect to be 10-2, I'm taking each win as a positive
It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind
I know we haven't always seen eye to eye, but I agree with you.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app
User avatar
bigfoot
Suns Forum Anti-Tank Commander
Posts: 9,572
And1: 6,179
Joined: Sep 16, 2010
 

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#146 » by bigfoot » Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:59 am

lilfishi22 wrote:
SkyBill40 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Win or lose, some posters bring the same negative Nancy energy. Credits where credits due for the consistency, I'll give them that.

In a season where we're 6-6 when we expect to be 10-2, I'm taking each win as a positive
It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind


Yep!! Thing is the Suns could easily roll 10 straight wins and be ahead of the Nuggets who are 9-3. That's how early it is in the season. honestly it won't be until mid-January before this team has had enough time together to make a legitimate assessment. On the positive side of things

1) KD is still a 1a/b option
2) Booker at point guard looks to be working as he is averaging 10.2 assists per game. He is at a completely different level than last year in the way he plays
3) Grayson was a great pickup in the DA trade. I would be surprised if he is not the fifth starter when Beal returns

Honestly the big issue for the Suns is to sort out individual and team defense. It needs to improve significantly.
Iceman36
Sophomore
Posts: 183
And1: 320
Joined: Aug 22, 2014
 

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#147 » by Iceman36 » Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:10 am

I Like it to hear some neutral (realistic) opinions in here despite the constant whining and trolling (Quality of the Suns section on this board is moving massive downward).Go on guys!
Iceman36
Sophomore
Posts: 183
And1: 320
Joined: Aug 22, 2014
 

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#148 » by Iceman36 » Sun Nov 19, 2023 7:31 am

One more take:
I loved our old team! It was real,true love: Great guys, great chemistry and a loveable squad!
This year feels like we are a drafted expansion team, with only Book (our true Nr. 1, franchise and best player) left. So many new guys getting used to each other and nearly complete new coaching staff. Without Book beeing injuried we would easily stand 10:2 and nearly everything would be fine. But we aren´t and saw the things we have to work on. And I feel, we are heading in the right direction. I think until the ASG, everything will gel and we will see, what this current squad ist really capable of.

Analogie: Vegas Golden Knights. From expansion team to Stanley Cup. ;-)
AtheJ415
Head Coach
Posts: 6,411
And1: 5,373
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#149 » by AtheJ415 » Sun Nov 19, 2023 12:20 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
SkyBill40 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Win or lose, some posters bring the same negative Nancy energy. Credits where credits due for the consistency, I'll give them that.

In a season where we're 6-6 when we expect to be 10-2, I'm taking each win as a positive
It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind


Then name them. Tell me, where has this team improved aside from Booker returning? Give specifics.
sunsbg
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,177
And1: 4,216
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#150 » by sunsbg » Sun Nov 19, 2023 1:47 pm

On a boring cold weather outside Sunday rewatching 4Q noticed Book was not called for 8s violation with 8min left. He should be more careful when bringing the ball up the court. Not yet in his instincts probably. So far he's been great with 10.5a/3.5to, but especially in the playoffs when the game slows down, I hope they move the ball faster to create better looks than in those last second shots at the end of the game. They should run more of those Spain PnRs they ran on s few consecutive possessions in 1st Q.
User avatar
bigfoot
Suns Forum Anti-Tank Commander
Posts: 9,572
And1: 6,179
Joined: Sep 16, 2010
 

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#151 » by bigfoot » Sun Nov 19, 2023 11:20 pm

AtheJ415 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
SkyBill40 wrote:It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind


Then name them. Tell me, where has this team improved aside from Booker returning? Give specifics.


1. KD is significantly better than Bridges and Cam Johnson. This should not even been in question.

2. The jettison of DA for any decent center is a major plus. Nurk is better than decent too. He will average twice as many assists and free throws than Ayton while providing the same scoring and rebounding. More consistent minutes are in the cards as lazy play is a thing of the past. Eubanks is a big improvement too over Bizzy or Landale,

3. Beal and CP3 are wash right now because of Beal's inury. I believe that once Beal is back he will be a major improvement over CP3.

4. Yuta, Eric Gordon, Grayson Allen, and Bates Diop are all better than the Suns players in last season's playoffs including Cam Payne, Damion Lee, Torrey Craig, Landry Shamet, and Terrence Ross.

5. Contributions from young players ... Goodwin and Little seem to be long term solutions for role players needed to surround Book, KD3, and Beal. They have both earned time in the rotations already this season. They are also legitimate trade pieces that could be used at the trade deadline.
User avatar
sunsbum
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,165
And1: 4,814
Joined: May 16, 2007
Location: Portland
     

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#152 » by sunsbum » Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:01 am

I just want to see the defense improve, it shouldn’t take a full squad to play D.
I hate this team.
Maze
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,413
And1: 966
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#153 » by Maze » Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:08 am

I always hear how Jordan Clarkson's an inefficient chucker, but he always seems to play like Michael Jordan against the Suns.i'm hoping to see the real Jordan Clarkson tonight.
AtheJ415
Head Coach
Posts: 6,411
And1: 5,373
Joined: Jul 07, 2014

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#154 » by AtheJ415 » Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:21 am

bigfoot wrote:
AtheJ415 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind


Then name them. Tell me, where has this team improved aside from Booker returning? Give specifics.


1. KD is significantly better than Bridges and Cam Johnson. This should not even been in question.

2. The jettison of DA for any decent center is a major plus. Nurk is better than decent too. He will average twice as many assists and free throws than Ayton while providing the same scoring and rebounding. More consistent minutes are in the cards as lazy play is a thing of the past. Eubanks is a big improvement too over Bizzy or Landale,

3. Beal and CP3 are wash right now because of Beal's inury. I believe that once Beal is back he will be a major improvement over CP3.

4. Yuta, Eric Gordon, Grayson Allen, and Bates Diop are all better than the Suns players in last season's playoffs including Cam Payne, Damion Lee, Torrey Craig, Landry Shamet, and Terrence Ross.

5. Contributions from young players ... Goodwin and Little seem to be long term solutions for role players needed to surround Book, KD3, and Beal. They have both earned time in the rotations already this season. They are also legitimate trade pieces that could be used at the trade deadline.


I'm not talking about the offseason moves. I'm talking about these supposed game by game improvements -- meaning how this team with the players we have had available have improved, so that there is no reason to worry. Because we haven't. And when asked about the team's inexcusable struggles, the team has basically just blamed injuries even when losing to a god awful Spurs team on repeat. The only way we have improved is Booker coming back which has helped with everything because he is a top 5 player, but that again is not a game by game improvement.

What I would LIKE to see, is the team making fewer mental and effort level errors, and the rotations improving, and actual running of real offensive sets instead of KD / Booker dribbling until a double comes. I would be playing KBD way more than Goodwin, Gordon, and maybe Okogie. He is a 2 way player. We started running Spain sets more last game so we'll see, but the effort level by certain guys has been a major concern.
User avatar
lilfishi22
Forum Mod - Suns
Forum Mod - Suns
Posts: 33,789
And1: 21,795
Joined: Oct 16, 2007
Location: Australia

Re: Game 12: Phoenix Suns (5-6) @ Utah Jazz (4-7) |ESPN| In-Season Tournament| 11/17 

Post#155 » by lilfishi22 » Mon Nov 20, 2023 1:42 am

AtheJ415 wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:
SkyBill40 wrote:It's a slow burn. You've been around long enough to know as much.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

That's why I look at the big picture but also look for improvements and areas of weaknesses game by game whereas others seem to be stuck in the mindset that they weren't happy with the KD/Beal trades (fine opinion to have) so anything short of being 10-2 and a finished product on Day 1 is a disaster.

I know we're 6-6 and it's not where I hoped we'll be nor has our play or coaching been particularly impressive as a whole but it's a marathon. I'm not writing this (and subsequent) seasons off, as some seem to already have, just because we're not having the absolutely ideal start. And I can damn near guarantee even if we were 10-2 or 11-1 or 12-0, some will still look to the Nuggets or the Celtics or whoever else and have already decided they we have no chance in hell.

Like I don't care if anyone has a dissenting opinion, that's fine to have but I don't see the point of watching this iteration of the Phoenix Suns if you've already prejudged this team, seemingly in the offseason, and only jump on here to spell disaster. My view is that we're not a finished product, we have legitimate weaknesses we may not be able to address without a trade/signing and it's entirely possible Vogel isn't the coach to take us to a title but we're in mid-November and unlike a bunch of other posters, I'm keeping an open mind


Then name them. Tell me, where has this team improved aside from Booker returning? Give specifics.


But here's a list of changes we've made to try and improve:

- We've experimented with different line ups and in particular, gotten KBD a lot more minutes and while playing him in the 4th where his length and defense has been an asset.

- After a decent first few games Okogie stopped hitting shot entirely and we had to bring him back to the bench. He's been on a shorter leash from a shooting standpoint and more importantly, we've greatly reduced the number of minutes he's shared with Goodwin. Goodwin has benefited imo by not having another non-shooter like Okogie out there who defenses can help off. As a result, Goodwin has shot better from 3 in the 4 games leading up to Book's return.

- We've also reduced the Nurk minutes from around 28mpg down to just under 25mpg which is close to where I expect they should be. Those minutes have gone to Eubanks who started the first 8-10 games on about 18mpg and now it's sitting at around 20mpg. Those increased minutes and opportunities has been good for Eubanks who has been getting more time with some of the starting players.

- We tried to rest KD earlier in the 3rd quarter so he can start the 4th and give us a bit of a boost from the beginning of the 4th rather than 6-8min into the 4th. But that is not the norm and under normal circumstances, we do want to finish the 3rd quarter strong and have someone like Book/Beal start the 4th and bring KD at the 6-8min mark whilst Book/Beal take a short rest before finishing out the game. This hasn't yielded the results we've wanted but we're clearly trying to do something to address our 4th quarter woes.

Ultimately, there is far too small a sample size especially when you want to take out 4 games out of the sample size of 12 while also having one blow out against the Jazz which skews the data even more. Not to mention Beal playing a good amount of minutes and playing a fairly significant role while also not playing particularly well which further skews the data. So it would be difficult to say a single move has definitely yielded concrete positives because there are far too many differentiating factors game by game like opponent, individual play etc on such a small sample size. Also improvements aren't always linear. Making one move that works against one team and against one scheme might not work for the next 2 teams.
lilfishi22 wrote:More than ever....we are in the championship or bust endgame

Return to Phoenix Suns