Ghost of Kleine wrote:dremill24 wrote:
Calm down there turbo...perhaps he didnt say that the swaps dont move to the end of the first round because its not true? They wont be incurring penalties on picks that were already traded. They will be unable to trade their '32 1st if they remain over the 2nd apron by the end of the upcoming season. That will be the first time 2nd apron draft pick penalties are enforced. The swap rights for picks before that are still dependent on the records of the teams involved. It'll be the worst of the 3 picks...but wouldnt be 30th unless one of the 3 teams has the best record in the league.
First off, How'd you know my nickname man? J/k.....lol
But I believe we're going to disagree on a few points here:
perhaps he didnt say that the swaps dont move to the end of the first round because its not true?
But it is absolutely true, all you have to do is look at the 2nd apron penalties for NBA teams man!
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-second-apron-explained-salary-cap-team-spending/efo6htjzzmzrswoncvvlbmhiAll of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:
- No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
-Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:
-Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
-Teams cannot include cash in a trade
-Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
-First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
- A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHO.htmlSo when looking at our next three seasons, this last season, as well as the next two, we're well over the 2nd apron $182 million tax line. And my point of discussion is again the picks swaps here that begin in 2026 for us because picks 2025, 2027, and 2029 are already traded away to Brooklyn. But again, I'm talking about our pick swaps which begin for us in 2026 and going forward in alternating years going forward to 2030. So during that time, unless we drastically reduce our payroll and break up our "big three" which is highly unlikely given Ishbias' "All in" every year statement, we'll continue operating over the 2nd apron. And that's the basis of determination for our teams' pick being moved to the last pick (#30) of the first round per multiple articles and the updated CBA info itself.
They won't be incurring penalties on picks that were already traded.
Again, per my posts, we're talking about the pick swaps that still have yet to begin in 2026, not the picks that we've already traded to Brooklyn. I'll concede that I misstated the part about the swaps beginning in 2025 when they actually begin in 2026. But that honestly changes nothing about the facts that our pick swaps beginning in 2026, and going forward (up to 2030) as long as we maintain our 2nd apron payroll, which again is very likely given Ishbias' "ALL IN EVERY YEAR" statements will be penalized as a 2nd apron team and our pick will be moved to the last pick of the first round or pick #30.
They will be unable to trade their '32 1st if they remain over the 2nd apron by the end of the upcoming season.
I don't at all disagree with you on this point, And I even mention this same point in a different post response to Garricks' post reply too. But again, where discussing the draft details for the corresponding pick swaps for alternating years, because the picks from the BRK KD trade are already traded and irrelevant to my points in my post as Brooklyn owns those picks. Which again is why I reference the picks swaps in my post because that's what BOTH Ishbia and Gerald Bourget are referencing themselves as us still having draft assets going forward. At no point have I claimed that we don't either! My argument has always been the omitted details surrounding those swaps as stated in my post.
But I do disagree with you that 2032 will be the first time those penalties are enforced! Again, clearly, per the above-referenced article, and even the updated information of the CBA itself, it states that for any team which exceeds the 2nd apron threshold of $182,5 million in (which we already clearly have at $190+ million going forward)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHO.html and will obviously continue to do so if you believe Ishbias' "ALL IN EVERY YEAR" statements from his press conference. And as a 2nd apron team operating well above the $182 threshold and even further above it once Allens' new deal is added, we resign O'neale, Likely extend KD for around 60 million or more per annum, and then fill out our roster, short of Ishbia abruptly changing course, we'll very obviously maintain our 2nd apron status. Meaning, that this next season will be our 2nd year in it and again, our pick swaps which begin in 2026 will trigger that 2nd apron penalty which will stay in effect until we obviously drop back below that threshold. So we'll absolutely incur those penalties well before 2032 beginning in 2026 when our pick swaps begin. Yes, I'll concede that I had the first pick swap wrong stating it as 2025, my bad! I apologize for that mistake. However, that misstatement doesn't at all change the facts or basis of my argument referencing the alternating pick swaps. It still is what it is per the information referenced above.
The swap rights for picks before that are still dependent on the records of the teams involved. It'll be the worst of the 3 picks...but wouldn't be 30th unless one of the 3 teams has the best record in the league.
Again, I agree with you that the swap rights are determined by individual team records involved in the swaps, that's not a point of contention that I'm arguing here. I also agree that the pick we receive will be the worst of the 3 as mentioned in various articles:
https://arizonasports.com/story/3546524/nba-draft-order-finalized-suns-pick-no-22-overall-after-tiebreakers/#:~:text=The%20Suns%20do%20not%20own,the%20Durant%20and%20Beal%20deals.
The Suns do not own a 2025, 2027, or 2029 first-rounder after the Kevin Durant trade, while in 2026, 2028, and 2030 they get the least favorable pick via swaps from the Durant and Beal deals.
But our pick absolutely would be #30 BECAUSE again, the corresponding 2nd apron penalties are based upon that team's 2nd apron salary status as we are clearly in that tier and will be going forward. And the penalties that move that pick to the last pick of the first round (pick #30) really have nothing to do with a team's competitive record because it's based on overall salary commitment under the new CBA. Now if your corresponding argument is that we'd somehow get a better pick in the swap between the three teams, per the conditions of the swaps, we'd get the "least favorable of" the three picks, and under those conditions
IF we weren't already a 2nd apron team, then those penalties wouldn't apply, and we might have a chance to get a slightly better pick than 30 IF both of those other two teams didn't fall in that specific range. But again, WE ARE a 2nd apron team, and aside from maybe the pick in 2025 (which we don't own anyways), 2026 and the rest of our 5 pick swaps would fall under those penalties and thusly be moved to the last (30th) pick for that round. The whole 3 team conditions that apply to those pick swaps are ultimately completely separate from our apron penalties which would still supersede any outlier outcomes for us landing a least favorable pick from one of those other two teams even if those other two teams finished above the 30th pick range. Because once the least favorable range is determined, and we obtain that pick range, it's still immediately moved to the last pick of that round per the CBA penalties.
So I do kind of get your suggested argument! But my understanding is still that whatever pick outcome of the swaps we ultimately receive because our 2nd apron threshold has been/is exceeded, we'll still trigger those corresponding penalties listed above. So even if we somehow finished worse than those other two teams in Washington or Memphis, which is highly unlikely (maybe a very slight outlier chance with Memphis) we'd still take possession of said pick and then that pick (under our acquisition would still trigger the penalties once it's determined to become ours (as long as we still fall under the conditions of those 2nd apron penalties.
(PHNX) and Aaron Edwards in a short 6-7 minute video discuss the tough questions around our teams' offseason. 
