Game 4: San Antonio Spurs (1-2) @ Phoenix Suns (2-1) l Tuesday l 7:00pm l TNT

[lilfishi22]

I'm not going to be doom and gloom after tonight, but this was a winable game. Maybe I'm a blind hater, but Grayson made some real dumb decisions late in that game.

Nah, not a hater. You can appreciate his blazing hot start but I heard on a podcast he did most of that box stat line damage in like the first 17min of playing time and then he was a -20 in the second half. He really couldn't do much once the Spurs went with the zone and forced him to make decisions in no-man's land.

Oh he 100% looked dreadful against the zone and waltzed into getting his ass swatted a couple of times by Wemby.

This game came down to unforced "what the hell were they thinking" turnovers. Take better care of the ball and we're not talking about this game as a loss. I understand Vogel wants the offense playing fast, but without a true primary ball handler right now the stupid TO's are going to remain a problem if they push too much. KD and Gordon were responsible for basically half of those TO's btw.

Turnovers has been the elephant in the room since the preseason, aside from the obvious injury issues we've been dealing with. We're 3rd last in the league when it comes to turning the ball over and dead last in turnover percentage (16.1% of our posessions end in the turnover). KD is averaging a team high 4.3 a game, EG/Eubanks/Nurk are all around 2 a game, and it's just the fact that we've leaned so heavily on KD to do his scoring thing (in high volume) and expect him to also create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team as well that is causing a lot of these carelessness from these guys.

A lot of these issues will be fixed as the guys get to know each other better on the court and obviously having Book/Beal back so we can stagger the guys who can actually create well but imo it doesn't negate the need for a back up PG because there will be more games where we're missing 1 or 2 of the Big 3 and you still need a capable guy who can run an offense and put guys in their spots to do positive things out on the court.

I think our offense really just lacks that extra wrinkle right now, that extra bit of variation to keep defenses on their toes. Right now, you basically know what you're gonna get from our guys and there's a common theme.

Gordon: A lot of 3's and attacking the rim. Essentially no midrange game
GA: spot up shooting, occasional attacking close outs. No midrange game
Nurk: Either shoot wide open 3's or tries to score in the paint. No midrange game
KD: Our most versatile scorer but he's also never been a guy you go to for absolute volume. He plays within an offense, not a guy you forcefeed shots.
Yuta: primarily a shooter, so-so at attacking the close out. No midrange game
Okogie: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks. No midrange game
Goodwin: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks but will also occasional get to the rim. Essentially no midrange game
Eubanks: Does nothing outside of the restricted area. Absolutely no midrange game

There's no one on this team right now outside of KD that is comfortable operating in the midrange. It's either get to the basket or shoot the 3, which is totally fine because those are the most efficient types of shots but you also make it easier on the defense because they can play right up on you and then drop all the way back to the rim to protect the rim knowing we won't do much in that midrange aside from pass it back out and resetting the possession.

And the thing is, a lot of these turnovers come from getting to the midrange and making bad/lazy/desperate passes to a cutter or back out and they just lead to a lot of extra possessions/FB points for the opposition. Having a PG who can actually make the clean pass and set guys up will do wonders for the rest of the team.

[Saberestar]

Nah, not a hater. You can appreciate his blazing hot start but I heard on a podcast he did most of that box stat line damage in like the first 17min of playing time and then he was a -20 in the second half. He really couldn't do much once the Spurs went with the zone and forced him to make decisions in no-man's land.

Oh he 100% looked dreadful against the zone and waltzed into getting his ass swatted a couple of times by Wemby.

This game came down to unforced "what the hell were they thinking" turnovers. Take better care of the ball and we're not talking about this game as a loss. I understand Vogel wants the offense playing fast, but without a true primary ball handler right now the stupid TO's are going to remain a problem if they push too much. KD and Gordon were responsible for basically half of those TO's btw.

Turnovers has been the elephant in the room since the preseason, aside from the obvious injury issues we've been dealing with. We're 3rd last in the league when it comes to turning the ball over and dead last in turnover percentage (16.1% of our posessions end in the turnover). KD is averaging a team high 4.3 a game, EG/Eubanks/Nurk are all around 2 a game, and it's just the fact that we've leaned so heavily on KD to do his scoring thing (in high volume) and expect him to also create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team as well that is causing a lot of these carelessness from these guys.

A lot of these issues will be fixed as the guys get to know each other better on the court and obviously having Book/Beal back so we can stagger the guys who can actually create well but imo it doesn't negate the need for a back up PG because there will be more games where we're missing 1 or 2 of the Big 3 and you still need a capable guy who can run an offense and put guys in their spots to do positive things out on the court.

I think our offense really just lacks that extra wrinkle right now, that extra bit of variation to keep defenses on their toes. Right now, you basically know what you're gonna get from our guys and there's a common theme.

Gordon: A lot of 3's and attacking the rim. Essentially no midrange game
GA: spot up shooting, occasional attacking close outs. No midrange game
Nurk: Either shoot wide open 3's or tries to score in the paint. No midrange game
KD: Our most versatile scorer but he's also never been a guy you go to for absolute volume. He plays within an offense, not a guy you forcefeed shots.
Yuta: primarily a shooter, so-so at attacking the close out. No midrange game
Okogie: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks. No midrange game
Goodwin: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks but will also occasional get to the rim. Essentially no midrange game
Eubanks: Does nothing outside of the restricted area. Absolutely no midrange game

There's no one on this team right now outside of KD that is comfortable operating in the midrange. It's either get to the basket or shoot the 3, which is totally fine because those are the most efficient types of shots but you also make it easier on the defense because they can play right up on you and then drop all the way back to the rim to protect the rim knowing we won't do much in that midrange aside from pass it back out and resetting the possession.

And the thing is, a lot of these turnovers come from getting to the midrange and making bad/lazy/desperate passes to a cutter or back out and they just lead to a lot of extra possessions/FB points for the opposition. Having a PG who can actually make the clean pass and set guys up will do wonders for the rest of the team.

It’s too early in the season to make a trade, we probably can do it next to the trade deadline...but who is in your mind other than McConnell (,we couldn't get him) and Tyus Jones (probably too valuable)? There is a realistic target?

[lilfishi22]

Listening to Vogel post game press conference, sounds like he believes it was a good decision to just inbound the ball to our 95% FT shooter, so I guess he is correct. Durant did get hacked and the refs just swallowed their whistle. I think even at that point the Spurs would be trying to foul so they can run a play after FTs, and refs just missed it.

Yeah, you can't anticipate a steal and if KD has it, he's the best person to have it. It would have been very hard to inbound it with Wemby there if we had a timeout.

Hindsight is 20/20.

We will have some bad losses, especially when missing 2 of our best 3 players.

Could it be argued that he wasn't protecting the ball enough though? The way he's holding it strikes me as a bit lazy given the circumstance.

I'd argue he momentarily lost focus after getting struck in the face.

[lilfishi22]

The reality is many are jumping to completely irrelevant excuses for individual mind-boggling decisions by Vogel. No coach fails to call timeout when KD gets trapped there. Few coaches watch a lead evaporate like that, allow such terrible 3 point defense the entire 2nd half, and such lazy half-assed turnovers. Booker and Beal have 0 to do with all of those things occuring. Their brilliance should not have to overcome our coach making idiotic decisions or allowing the lack of intensity we have now repeatedly shown once we get a lead.

Vogel owes all of us an apology and anybody saying it is somehow okay to lose these games in the manner we have is a loser. You should not lose when up 20+ to teams you are better than even without Booker and Beal. Expectations should not be that we should lose any game that 2 of our 3 stars are out. The Spurs absolutely suck as a team and we had a commanding lead and said, "enough is enough" and half assed the rest of the game while our coach watched it until we only led by 5.

None of this should be okay. To anybody. **** Vogel

Who do you prefer between Vogel, Monty, Igor, Triano or Hornacek?

He'd go Earl Watson because no one is worse than Vogel in the history of basketball.

[bwgood77]

The reality is many are jumping to completely irrelevant excuses for individual mind-boggling decisions by Vogel. No coach fails to call timeout when KD gets trapped there. Few coaches watch a lead evaporate like that, allow such terrible 3 point defense the entire 2nd half, and such lazy half-assed turnovers. Booker and Beal have 0 to do with all of those things occuring. Their brilliance should not have to overcome our coach making idiotic decisions or allowing the lack of intensity we have now repeatedly shown once we get a lead.

Vogel owes all of us an apology and anybody saying it is somehow okay to lose these games in the manner we have is a loser. You should not lose when up 20+ to teams you are better than even without Booker and Beal. Expectations should not be that we should lose any game that 2 of our 3 stars are out. The Spurs absolutely suck as a team and we had a commanding lead and said, "enough is enough" and half assed the rest of the game while our coach watched it until we only led by 5.

None of this should be okay. To anybody. **** Vogel

Who do you prefer between Vogel, Monty, Igor, Triano or Hornacek?

He'd go Earl Watson because no one is worse than Vogel in the history of basketball.

Oh yeah, how could I forget the yoga master?

[lilfishi22]

Oh he 100% looked dreadful against the zone and waltzed into getting his ass swatted a couple of times by Wemby.

This game came down to unforced "what the hell were they thinking" turnovers. Take better care of the ball and we're not talking about this game as a loss. I understand Vogel wants the offense playing fast, but without a true primary ball handler right now the stupid TO's are going to remain a problem if they push too much. KD and Gordon were responsible for basically half of those TO's btw.

Turnovers has been the elephant in the room since the preseason, aside from the obvious injury issues we've been dealing with. We're 3rd last in the league when it comes to turning the ball over and dead last in turnover percentage (16.1% of our posessions end in the turnover). KD is averaging a team high 4.3 a game, EG/Eubanks/Nurk are all around 2 a game, and it's just the fact that we've leaned so heavily on KD to do his scoring thing (in high volume) and expect him to also create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team as well that is causing a lot of these carelessness from these guys.

A lot of these issues will be fixed as the guys get to know each other better on the court and obviously having Book/Beal back so we can stagger the guys who can actually create well but imo it doesn't negate the need for a back up PG because there will be more games where we're missing 1 or 2 of the Big 3 and you still need a capable guy who can run an offense and put guys in their spots to do positive things out on the court.

I think our offense really just lacks that extra wrinkle right now, that extra bit of variation to keep defenses on their toes. Right now, you basically know what you're gonna get from our guys and there's a common theme.

Gordon: A lot of 3's and attacking the rim. Essentially no midrange game
GA: spot up shooting, occasional attacking close outs. No midrange game
Nurk: Either shoot wide open 3's or tries to score in the paint. No midrange game
KD: Our most versatile scorer but he's also never been a guy you go to for absolute volume. He plays within an offense, not a guy you forcefeed shots.
Yuta: primarily a shooter, so-so at attacking the close out. No midrange game
Okogie: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks. No midrange game
Goodwin: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks but will also occasional get to the rim. Essentially no midrange game
Eubanks: Does nothing outside of the restricted area. Absolutely no midrange game

There's no one on this team right now outside of KD that is comfortable operating in the midrange. It's either get to the basket or shoot the 3, which is totally fine because those are the most efficient types of shots but you also make it easier on the defense because they can play right up on you and then drop all the way back to the rim to protect the rim knowing we won't do much in that midrange aside from pass it back out and resetting the possession.

And the thing is, a lot of these turnovers come from getting to the midrange and making bad/lazy/desperate passes to a cutter or back out and they just lead to a lot of extra possessions/FB points for the opposition. Having a PG who can actually make the clean pass and set guys up will do wonders for the rest of the team.

It’s too early in the season to make a trade, we probably can do it next to the trade deadline...but who is in your mind other than McConnell (,we couldn't get him) and Tyus Jones (probably too valuable)? There is a realistic target?

No I agree there isn't really an option right now (I looked), it's more the decision to not go after one in the offseason after trading away our only halfway decent PG (Cam). It's something we should certainly look to add during the season, perhaps when the freshly signed FA's become eligible to trade in Dec

[Jdiddy701]

Do you guys know that it’s okay for players and coaches to make mistakes? Like no one is perfect.. did you guys know that?

I have no idea why everyone is turning on Vogel already. Actually I do know.. when a team loses it’s always the coaches fault! Do you guys remember me saying that last year? Give it freaking time and let us get guys back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jdiddy701]

Read on Twitter

?s=46&t=e2jUjMUourhO2823KONxMg

And the NBA is a joke. How the hell do they stand by on that not being a foul? KD was bleeding from the hit and was being held after the turnover. Tre Jones even reacted as if he fouled him. What a joke.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[enigmatics]

Do you guys know that it’s okay for players and coaches to make mistakes? Like no one is perfect.. did you guys know that?

I have no idea why everyone is turning on Vogel already. Actually I do know.. when a team loses it’s always the coaches fault! Do you guys remember me saying that last year? Give it freaking time and let us get guys back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#1 - This is a PACKED western conference and every single game counts
#2 - Vogel repeated the sins of the Laker game (literally two games later) and horribly mismanaged the end (should've fouled the Spurs when the Suns were up three with less then 30 seconds to go and should've called a timeout to get the ball up to half court when up by 1)
#3 - Staying to long with the 2nd unit he's conconcted when they're pissing away big leads in the 2nd half

I'm not turning on him - but I'll call crap like that out every single time I've seen it.

[garrick]

Nah, not a hater. You can appreciate his blazing hot start but I heard on a podcast he did most of that box stat line damage in like the first 17min of playing time and then he was a -20 in the second half. He really couldn't do much once the Spurs went with the zone and forced him to make decisions in no-man's land.

Oh he 100% looked dreadful against the zone and waltzed into getting his ass swatted a couple of times by Wemby.

This game came down to unforced "what the hell were they thinking" turnovers. Take better care of the ball and we're not talking about this game as a loss. I understand Vogel wants the offense playing fast, but without a true primary ball handler right now the stupid TO's are going to remain a problem if they push too much. KD and Gordon were responsible for basically half of those TO's btw.

Turnovers has been the elephant in the room since the preseason, aside from the obvious injury issues we've been dealing with. We're 3rd last in the league when it comes to turning the ball over and dead last in turnover percentage (16.1% of our posessions end in the turnover). KD is averaging a team high 4.3 a game, EG/Eubanks/Nurk are all around 2 a game, and it's just the fact that we've leaned so heavily on KD to do his scoring thing (in high volume) and expect him to also create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team as well that is causing a lot of these carelessness from these guys.

A lot of these issues will be fixed as the guys get to know each other better on the court and obviously having Book/Beal back so we can stagger the guys who can actually create well but imo it doesn't negate the need for a back up PG because there will be more games where we're missing 1 or 2 of the Big 3 and you still need a capable guy who can run an offense and put guys in their spots to do positive things out on the court.

I think our offense really just lacks that extra wrinkle right now, that extra bit of variation to keep defenses on their toes. Right now, you basically know what you're gonna get from our guys and there's a common theme.

Gordon: A lot of 3's and attacking the rim. Essentially no midrange game
GA: spot up shooting, occasional attacking close outs. No midrange game
Nurk: Either shoot wide open 3's or tries to score in the paint. No midrange game
KD: Our most versatile scorer but he's also never been a guy you go to for absolute volume. He plays within an offense, not a guy you forcefeed shots.
Yuta: primarily a shooter, so-so at attacking the close out. No midrange game
Okogie: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks. No midrange game
Goodwin: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks but will also occasional get to the rim. Essentially no midrange game
Eubanks: Does nothing outside of the restricted area. Absolutely no midrange game

There's no one on this team right now outside of KD that is comfortable operating in the midrange. It's either get to the basket or shoot the 3, which is totally fine because those are the most efficient types of shots but you also make it easier on the defense because they can play right up on you and then drop all the way back to the rim to protect the rim knowing we won't do much in that midrange aside from pass it back out and resetting the possession.

And the thing is, a lot of these turnovers come from getting to the midrange and making bad/lazy/desperate passes to a cutter or back out and they just lead to a lot of extra possessions/FB points for the opposition. Having a PG who can actually make the clean pass and set guys up will do wonders for the rest of the team.

Our bench players that aren't playing are also no mid range players, KBD, Azubuike, Bol Bol.

[Revived]

Worst part about going to NBA games is you never know who is going to play. I don’t think Beal and Booker are even injured, more precautionary than anything. That’s BS for fans.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Nah Beal is definitely injured. I don’t know if you saw those clips from Twitter where they showed him shooting around and mfer could basically barely even stand. The way he was walking and how his motions looked reminded me of my 81 year old grandma who also had severe back problems before she passed away last year.

Booker I think will probably come back sometime this month (November). But Beal I honestly don’t think will be back before Christmas at the very earliest. More likely is probably late Jan/February. The damn Wizards may have sold us a lemon.

It's always nice to have a medical professional on the forum.

You know I actually am one right? And I’m far from the only one on realgm. Maybe half of the regular posters Heat sub are residents and physicians and I’m sure we have some here too lol. But anyway, I don’t know Beal’s actual diagnosis and regardless of your cute snarky remark, anyone with two functioning eyes can probably see what I see. It’s called speculation and it’s what everyone on this forum and all forums do as we’re just fans.

[lilfishi22]

Oh he 100% looked dreadful against the zone and waltzed into getting his ass swatted a couple of times by Wemby.

This game came down to unforced "what the hell were they thinking" turnovers. Take better care of the ball and we're not talking about this game as a loss. I understand Vogel wants the offense playing fast, but without a true primary ball handler right now the stupid TO's are going to remain a problem if they push too much. KD and Gordon were responsible for basically half of those TO's btw.

Turnovers has been the elephant in the room since the preseason, aside from the obvious injury issues we've been dealing with. We're 3rd last in the league when it comes to turning the ball over and dead last in turnover percentage (16.1% of our posessions end in the turnover). KD is averaging a team high 4.3 a game, EG/Eubanks/Nurk are all around 2 a game, and it's just the fact that we've leaned so heavily on KD to do his scoring thing (in high volume) and expect him to also create scoring opportunities for the rest of the team as well that is causing a lot of these carelessness from these guys.

A lot of these issues will be fixed as the guys get to know each other better on the court and obviously having Book/Beal back so we can stagger the guys who can actually create well but imo it doesn't negate the need for a back up PG because there will be more games where we're missing 1 or 2 of the Big 3 and you still need a capable guy who can run an offense and put guys in their spots to do positive things out on the court.

I think our offense really just lacks that extra wrinkle right now, that extra bit of variation to keep defenses on their toes. Right now, you basically know what you're gonna get from our guys and there's a common theme.

Gordon: A lot of 3's and attacking the rim. Essentially no midrange game
GA: spot up shooting, occasional attacking close outs. No midrange game
Nurk: Either shoot wide open 3's or tries to score in the paint. No midrange game
KD: Our most versatile scorer but he's also never been a guy you go to for absolute volume. He plays within an offense, not a guy you forcefeed shots.
Yuta: primarily a shooter, so-so at attacking the close out. No midrange game
Okogie: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks. No midrange game
Goodwin: Super flakey 3PT shot, will get in there for offensive rebounds and putbacks but will also occasional get to the rim. Essentially no midrange game
Eubanks: Does nothing outside of the restricted area. Absolutely no midrange game

There's no one on this team right now outside of KD that is comfortable operating in the midrange. It's either get to the basket or shoot the 3, which is totally fine because those are the most efficient types of shots but you also make it easier on the defense because they can play right up on you and then drop all the way back to the rim to protect the rim knowing we won't do much in that midrange aside from pass it back out and resetting the possession.

And the thing is, a lot of these turnovers come from getting to the midrange and making bad/lazy/desperate passes to a cutter or back out and they just lead to a lot of extra possessions/FB points for the opposition. Having a PG who can actually make the clean pass and set guys up will do wonders for the rest of the team.

Our bench players that aren't playing are also no mid range players, KBD, Azubuike, Bol Bol.

That's why I don't understand people calling for Vogel's head 4 games into the season because he didn't play these end of the bench guys. Just because you have players at the end of the bench, doesn't necessarily mean they are the answer nor do they become the answer because some fans thinks Vogel should've played them. Any bum off the street can criticise a coach but I trust a coach who's been in the coaching circles for 22years (and won a championship, NBD) over some dude on the internet who thinks he knows more about basketball because he's an NBA fan and has the benefit of hindsight.

I think we've got a good ragtag group of role players that has never played with each other before trying to figure it out without anyone on the court who has experience running an offense when KD is out. Okogie isn't that guy, Goodwin isn't that guy, Gordon isn't that guy, Grayson Allen isn't that guy....

The funny thing is, I see a lot of complaints about KBD not getting any burn as if he would've made a difference in this game but I don't see anyone calling for Vogel to play Saben Lee, who is the closest damn thing about a PG. I want KBD to get some burn because I really liked the signing but if he isn't getting minutes, there probably is a reason.

[enigmatics]

That's why I don't understand people calling for Vogel's head 4 games into the season because he didn't play these end of the bench guys. Just because you have players at the end of the bench, doesn't necessarily mean they are the answer nor do they become the answer because some fans thinks Vogel should've played them. Any bum off the street can criticise a coach but I trust a coach who's been in the coaching circles for 22years (and won a championship, NBD) over some dude on the internet who thinks he knows more about basketball because he's an NBA fan and has the benefit of hindsight.

I think we've got a good ragtag group of role players that has never played with each other before trying to figure it out without anyone on the court who has experience running an offense when KD is out. Okogie isn't that guy, Goodwin isn't that guy, Gordon isn't that guy, Grayson Allen isn't that guy....

The funny thing is, I see a lot of complaints about KBD not getting any burn as if he would've made a difference in this game but I don't see anyone calling for Vogel to play Saben Lee, who is the closest damn thing about a PG. I want KBD to get some burn because I really liked the signing but if he isn't getting minutes, there probably is a reason.

Don't know how these guys will respond until they get some run. Btw it was KBD and Metu people were asking for not Bol Bol and Buike.

Plus we aren't talking about the Spurs shaving a few points off the lead - we are talking puking up a near 20pts advantage and for the 2nd time in 2 games.

[Mulhollanddrive]

I don't really mind the defensive lapses, individual mistakes etc they will average out over 100 games.

The issue is Vogel is not known as an offensive coach and our offensive scheme looks really simple / inefficient at the moment. So when things get tight or Durant is swarmed there is no complexity to test defenses, this is especially needed when talent is missing.

Under Monty we had a dozen different movements to create good shots without needing individual bailouts.

Or if it's more point guard related then that's on Jones like the last 3 years.

Our defense is excellent we probably relaxed thinking it was Utah again, the sample size shows we're still elite as should be with an 80% top 10 defense coach over 10 seasons.

Our shooters like Allen suffer most without ball movement and system, our 3 point percentage shows that too.

Everyone can play we have the talent (10 minutes doesn't change that) but can Vogel coach offense it's been a question for over a decade.

[lilfishi22]

That's why I don't understand people calling for Vogel's head 4 games into the season because he didn't play these end of the bench guys. Just because you have players at the end of the bench, doesn't necessarily mean they are the answer nor do they become the answer because some fans thinks Vogel should've played them. Any bum off the street can criticise a coach but I trust a coach who's been in the coaching circles for 22years (and won a championship, NBD) over some dude on the internet who thinks he knows more about basketball because he's an NBA fan and has the benefit of hindsight.

I think we've got a good ragtag group of role players that has never played with each other before trying to figure it out without anyone on the court who has experience running an offense when KD is out. Okogie isn't that guy, Goodwin isn't that guy, Gordon isn't that guy, Grayson Allen isn't that guy....

The funny thing is, I see a lot of complaints about KBD not getting any burn as if he would've made a difference in this game but I don't see anyone calling for Vogel to play Saben Lee, who is the closest damn thing about a PG. I want KBD to get some burn because I really liked the signing but if he isn't getting minutes, there probably is a reason.

Don't know how these guys will respond until they get some run. Btw it was KBD and Metu people were asking for not Bol Bol and Buike.

Plus we aren't talking about the Spurs shaving a few points off the lead - we are talking puking up a near 20pts advantage and for the 2nd time in 2 games.

If a guy isn't giving the coaching staff confidence and is making mistakes in practice (a lot of behind the scenes we don't actually see) and that's leading to that player not earning PT, the absolute best time to expect change is....during a real game?

With regards to losing the 20pt lead, it shouldn't have happened, I agree but you make it sound like it can't happen and it's a mortal sin if does it does happen. Every team, even a bottom 3 team in the league can get hot, can get stops and can go on a run. That's what happened.

Does Vogel deserve criticism for this game? Yes. Should he receive some criticism for every game W or L? Yes, because no coach is perfect and even in blow outs you can find things you can criticise him for, as with any coach. But I just find it kind of head scratching to condemn him 4 games into the season, again, with a new team, new system and without a full squad. He deserves plenty of criticism but the suggestion that he doesn't know what he's doing at all (not saying you're suggesting that) while some internet dude does is nothing short of comedy to me.

Now if he doesn't improve and learn from these mistakes he's made by 30-40 games into the season (ie we have had enough time to gel etc) and we're regularly blowing 20-30pt leads then yeah we have a problem. But it's game 4, everyone in the league is trying out different line ups/schemes to see what works, what doesn't, can a line up figure things out, what is the team missing etc and they are doing that in a very low stake part of the season. And it's OK, we have time this season to try and address those issues, either through trades, signings, changing schemes, etc etc it's not to end of the world to lose a game in October.

[bwgood77]

Nah Beal is definitely injured. I don’t know if you saw those clips from Twitter where they showed him shooting around and mfer could basically barely even stand. The way he was walking and how his motions looked reminded me of my 81 year old grandma who also had severe back problems before she passed away last year.

Booker I think will probably come back sometime this month (November). But Beal I honestly don’t think will be back before Christmas at the very earliest. More likely is probably late Jan/February. The damn Wizards may have sold us a lemon.

It's always nice to have a medical professional on the forum.

You know I actually am one right? And I’m far from the only one on realgm. Maybe half of the regular posters Heat sub are residents and physicians and I’m sure we have some here too lol. But anyway, I don’t know Beal’s actual diagnosis and regardless of your cute snarky remark, anyone with two functioning eyes can probably see what I see. It’s called speculation and it’s what everyone on this forum and all forums do as we’re just fans.

I guess we will see if your expert diagnosis from a little video footage is correct.

[Slim Charless]

Nurkic (who had a double double - 10pts, 12 boards, 2 blks) was not the reason the Suns lost the game you big goofy queef nor would DA have won it for them. In fact both the Suns centers combined for 15pts, 21 boards, and 4 blocks. The Suns offense would've been even more stagnant in the 2nd half than it already was without Nurkic being able to run the screen game and distribute the ball - while only 4 assists on the stat sheet that number could've been twice that had the guys hit their shots. He also hit two big 3 point shots in the 4th quarter something DA wouldn't know a thing about.

Regarding defensive efficiency both leave a lot to be desired so far - DA is 18th in the league and Nurkic is 22nd. The minutes aren't 1:1 comparable but Eubanks has a 99 rating and DA's is 100.

Queef? What are you twelve? Lmao


This will a process for all of you. Just like last year when everyone of you guys attacked me for saying Monty sucks and will be fired and then, slowly but surely the whole board was on my side by the end.

This is no different. Nurk is a liability. Health wise, and actual ability to move/cover in space.

I never brought up Ayton but since you wanna talk about him. I assume you saw that he had 20+ boards the other day?

Almost like their coach knew to have him in the paint instead of out on the perimeter guarding wings in space. Maybe having your big not on the 3 point line is a good idea. Gee, I wonder who said THAT all year long?

Lololololol. It's all good bro, I'm not even mad at you because I know that 6 months from now you'll be saying the same things I am now.

23 boards vs. one of the worst rebounding teams in the NBA right now. Guess how many free throw attempts that led to or points? ZERO free throws and a whopping 10 pts. How does that even happen when you're crushing a team that badly on the boards? That happens when you're woefully offensively inadequate and don't have elite NBA players feeding you.

The Suns didn't lose the game vs. the Spurs because of f-in rebounds bro and collectively Nurk/Eubanks put up just as good a night if not better than DA vs. Toronto.

Nurk isn't actually moving and covering "in space". They have him in drop. For the teams that attempt to exploit that is the very reason they have Eubanks as his backup (who's quicker on his feet). The Suns didn't trade for him to set the world on fire for his defense. Nurk has been a key to keeping the offense moving due to his ability to run it in the high post and set LEGITIMATE screens. DA could never and would never. Nurk also hasn't even played with the Big 3 yet, which will further unlock those abilities.

K.

[AtheJ415]

Do you guys know that it’s okay for players and coaches to make mistakes? Like no one is perfect.. did you guys know that?

I have no idea why everyone is turning on Vogel already. Actually I do know.. when a team loses it’s always the coaches fault! Do you guys remember me saying that last year? Give it freaking time and let us get guys back.


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I don't expect perfection, but I damn well expect slightly above cataclysmically awful. Vogel has been inexcusably terrible and it needs to be called it. Period

[AtheJ415]

I don't really mind the defensive lapses, individual mistakes etc they will average out over 100 games.

The issue is Vogel is not known as an offensive coach and our offensive scheme looks really simple / inefficient at the moment. So when things get tight or Durant is swarmed there is no complexity to test defenses, this is especially needed when talent is missing.

Under Monty we had a dozen different movements to create good shots without needing individual bailouts.

Or if it's more point guard related then that's on Jones like the last 3 years.

Our defense is excellent we probably relaxed thinking it was Utah again, the sample size shows we're still elite as should be with an 80% top 10 defense coach over 10 seasons.

Our shooters like Allen suffer most without ball movement and system, our 3 point percentage shows that too.

Everyone can play we have the talent (10 minutes doesn't change that) but can Vogel coach offense it's been a question for over a decade.

We gave up 70 points to a terrible Spurs team in the 2nd half. I mean, I do agree we are going to be an elite defense but we look awfully comfortable / lazy for an 11th place in the conference team. Devin Booker can save us. He shouldn't have to though. We should win the games where we overmatch the other team with the talent remaining, and the prior 2 games we should have done that. Vogel has been awful. He has to be better or has to take a step back for us to get close to where we want to be.

[Puff]

I prefer Monty as our head coach and Doncic as the leading man.