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2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 4 - A Rocky Start

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

Which 2 teams in the top 4 scare you the most in a playoff series?

Clippers
24
52%
Nuggets
17
37%
Thunder
4
9%
Timberwolves
1
2%
 
Total votes: 46

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#41 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Oct 6, 2023 5:45 pm

phx#7 wrote:
Dzon Dilindzer wrote:nurk is unselfish player in every possible way, he will not go after every rebound, a lot of times he will box out

hes just not the player that plays for the stats, he doesnt care about none of that, he just wants to play bball the right way


Boxing out is one of my favorite aspects of his game(also one of the reasons I absolutely love Steven Adams' game) and I think will be a huge boost to the team.

Ayton is probably the only player I never got too upset with for not boxing out, just because with his physical attributes he's still elite at grabbing boards. Overall though I'd rather have the bigs keeping the other team off the boards rather than high rebound numbers.
Yeah Ayton was more of high point rebounder than a box out guy. That happens with guys who are bigger and more athletic than their peers when learning the game. That would lead to some frustrating plays where he would forget to box out and lose an easy rebound but overall Ayton was a good rebounder.

Adams is awesome at boxing out, playing with Russ for the early part of his career really beat that into his head. Never a huge fan of Russ and some of his rebounds were stat padding but I actually thought he got a unfair rap on that because him grabbing a defensive rebound and immediately starting the break is a sound strategy. I think the suns should do more grab and go this year because Book, KD, and Beal are all capable.

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#42 » by enigmatics » Fri Oct 6, 2023 5:57 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:Yeah Ayton was more of high point rebounder than a box out guy. That happens with guys who are bigger and more athletic than their peers when learning the game. That would lead to some frustrating plays where he would forget to box out and lose an easy rebound but overall Ayton was a good rebounder.

Adams is awesome at boxing out, playing with Russ for the early part of his career really beat that into his head. Never a huge fan of Russ and some of his rebounds were stat padding but I actually thought he got a unfair rap on that because him grabbing a defensive rebound and immediately starting the break is a sound strategy. I think the suns should do more grab and go this year because Book, KD, and Beal are all capable.

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Excellent point about DA being a high point rebounder - not a boxout guy. The problem is that's only one aspect to being good on the boards. He relied on it too much (because of his elite athleticism) and was unwilling to really bang to get a board or to free up a teammate to snatch it - that's why his "contested" rebounding numbers aren't all that good.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#43 » by bhawk » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:00 pm

enigmatics wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:Yeah Ayton was more of high point rebounder than a box out guy. That happens with guys who are bigger and more athletic than their peers when learning the game. That would lead to some frustrating plays where he would forget to box out and lose an easy rebound but overall Ayton was a good rebounder.

Adams is awesome at boxing out, playing with Russ for the early part of his career really beat that into his head. Never a huge fan of Russ and some of his rebounds were stat padding but I actually thought he got a unfair rap on that because him grabbing a defensive rebound and immediately starting the break is a sound strategy. I think the suns should do more grab and go this year because Book, KD, and Beal are all capable.

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Excellent point about DA being a high point rebounder - not a boxout guy. The problem is that's only one aspect to being good on the boards. He relied on it too much (because of his elite athleticism) and was unwilling to really bang to get a board or to free up a teammate to snatch it - that's why his "contested" rebounding numbers aren't all that good.


Ayton is a willing banger... just not on the court.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#44 » by enigmatics » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:02 pm

bhawk wrote:
enigmatics wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:Yeah Ayton was more of high point rebounder than a box out guy. That happens with guys who are bigger and more athletic than their peers when learning the game. That would lead to some frustrating plays where he would forget to box out and lose an easy rebound but overall Ayton was a good rebounder.

Adams is awesome at boxing out, playing with Russ for the early part of his career really beat that into his head. Never a huge fan of Russ and some of his rebounds were stat padding but I actually thought he got a unfair rap on that because him grabbing a defensive rebound and immediately starting the break is a sound strategy. I think the suns should do more grab and go this year because Book, KD, and Beal are all capable.

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Excellent point about DA being a high point rebounder - not a boxout guy. The problem is that's only one aspect to being good on the boards. He relied on it too much (because of his elite athleticism) and was unwilling to really bang to get a board or to free up a teammate to snatch it - that's why his "contested" rebounding numbers aren't all that good.


Ayton is a willing banger... just not on the court.


Katt Leya likes this.

:lol:
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#45 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:35 pm

Sh/t … we might even witness an outlet pass or two.

Im so glad to be rid of GrandPaul’s plodding offense. It was stifling. Every rebound DA corralled he was instructed to hand it off to CP. I think that might have been a universal rule.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#46 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:45 pm

sunskerr wrote:
lilfishi22 wrote:Celtics to me feel like the most dangerous team of the lot. Picking up Jrue without giving up White is a helluva move and I'm glad they are on the East. I actually like the Celtics roster a tiny bit more than ours because KP could be a real X-factor. Zinger looked great last year on the Wizards and he's also healthier than he's been since pre-injury. The addition of Jrue replaces a lot of what was lost on the defensive with the Smart trade but they certainly got better offensively because Jrue is comfortably better than Smart on that end of the court and he has championship experience.

Milwaukee with Dame is dangerous but I put them a tier below the Celtis. Warriors, I'm not there yet until I see how they integrate CP3 and/or trade for a true star. Clippers as well, I'm not quite there yet with their health issues, diminishing depth year on year and Lue having half a foot out the door. I'm likely to get some flack but the Nuggets even with Jokic playing like a top 5 player over the last decade feel like they've taken a step back.

I'd go something like this based purely on roster talent

Tier 1: Celtics
Tier 2: Suns, Bucks, Nuggets
Tier 3: Lakers, Clippers, Warriors, Grizz


Yeah thats exactly how the projections/rankings should look.

I agree Celtics look like the best team. There is one weakness though which is depth. They're only 6 deep for sure. It will be up to Pritchard/Hauser to develop, and maybe Wenyen Gabriel (an active big man they'll hope can fill in for Robbo). They've got a big 4 heck maybe that's a big 5 if you like advanced stats darling Derrick White. Also lets be real that KP for Smart + Picks was a swindle in terms of talent. Smart is a great defender but he is a role player and KP is a star. Wizards just wanted out.

I think we are technically better than the Bucks and Nuggets by a bees dick. Beal is our edge in talent. But we can't discount the Nuggets - Jamal Murray could be a real superstar. Just have to check his playoffs numbers to see that. Jokic could be hiding a lot of Murrays real talent in the regular season. They certainly didn't improve in terms of quantity of good players though.

Agree the Lakers/Clippers/Warriors/Grizz are their own tier below. The teams above should not be fearing them provided good health. I think the Grizz could have a chance at being the best in that group though.


I kind of agree with the rankings but would probably combine the top two tiers, and raelly, I think any team could come out on top. Like the Celtics getting Jrue, I think the Grizzlies getting Smart is huge. Their defense is stacked along with Ja. Smart, Bane, JJJ and Adams. Then Clarke off the bench. They could be our achilles heal. Think of Smart on Book, Bane on Beal, and JJJ on KD. Then Adams bullying Nurk (though Nurk would do better against him than Ayton, who probably had his toughest time with Adams). I am always high on Memphis though. They are very tough, mostly young and improving. Glad they didn't get Bridges too.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#47 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:47 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:I never realized how charismatic Brad Beal is. I think he's a great personality fit next to KD and Booker.
Yeah Beals always been viewed as a really good dude, he was really involved with the community in Washington too.

He's definitely no Harden or Kyrie personality wise and that's why I agree I think he's the right type of personality to play with KD and Booker.

Speaking of team personalities I feel like they might need the tough guy vocal leader type like a Crowder or PJ Tucker. Maybe Nurk can kind of fill that or one of the other role players.


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Yeah, Beal may end up being my favorite player with Bridges gone. Very charismatic, funny, will be a great teammate...a lot of personality. Plays hard and has a lot of talent.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#48 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:55 pm

Jdiddy701 wrote:
sunsbum wrote:
spanishninja wrote:
what do you mean by this? in January while Book was out the whole month, Ayton had 3.5 extra FGAs a game compared to the season as a whole. The trouble is his efficiency sank with the increased usage (which is what will happen in Portland) and that's why he ended up still averaging only 18 PPG that month.

and if your argument is that Monty needed to prioritize getting HIM more touches in particular compared to everybody else, then I ask...why? You don't prioritize a finisher over playmakers for touches. This isn't the 90s when forcefeeding a guy down low is the best option on offense. Bigs like Giannis, Embiid, Jokic even Sabonis don't need you to "feed" them to produce. Billups won't be doing that for him either.

The FG% dropped probably because the defense was key'd in on him with book being out I'd imagine. I never really thought about it but it will be interesting to see Ayton play a full season with out the gravity of Paul and Booker. People keep blaming them for the style of offense that wasn't conducive to DA's style of play but how much credit are we not giving them for things like pulling their defenders away from him etc.

I remember BWGOOD praised DA all the time for the gravity he creates for everyone but never mentioned the same for Booker, CP3 or KD. Portland should be really good since DA makes things so much easier for everyone!


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Well Portland has a rookie and a second year player, along with a pretty young Simons and Grant who likes to get his own. The gravity and scoring will help, but they just are not as good.

Yes, of course Book, CP3 and KD were better and require more attention on D (particularly D and Book) but Ayton had gravity. Obviously if watching you saw that when he got the ball he often had a couple defenders in there and was never left open. A lot of people didn't like when he passed out when doubled but it was the right play with an open shooter with our talent. I mean regardless of how much people hate Ayton, once he had the ball, even though he couldn't dribble, he was one of the best shooters/scorers for a C outside of the very best, so he obviously had that gravity.

It's not really huge praise...it's just a fact that his gravity helps. Nurkic, with the worst FG% for bigs, won't create that. He may end up being a better fit for other things he does, and fit in better off the court, and even though I wish we got more for Ayton, I do think the trade needed to be made all things considered.

And I know many probably assume I loved Ayton, but he wasn't one of my favorite players and I didn't want to draft him, and he frustrated me. I just played devil's advocate because I thought even though he was frustrating he took WAY more criticism, bashing than he deserved when other players struggled at times as well. He just seemed like a scapegoat.

I was probably his biggest critic as a rookie and really pissed some people off. So I backed off and then people even ended up getting worse than I had, despite his big improvements each year after his rookie year (except last year when our team was banged up all year and his role turned into something more than it should have been. I never thought he should be a #1 option..and playing with 2nd/3rd stringers, despite more shots, was obviously not going to play as well).
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#49 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 6, 2023 6:58 pm

sunsbum wrote:I think most fans are severely underestimating our roster. Not only do we have 3 unselfish superstars but we have the best bench in the NBA, a defensive minded championship coach and an entire roster of vets who want to win. On paper some teams might have top end pieces that fit together better in a traditional sense but who is standing toe to toe with Book/Beal/KD? Also, there is no way Beal is averaging more than KD this year. I’d offer a signature bet but I know better as I’ve seen these back peddling “predictions” before.


I think we have one of the, if not the best rosters, and our bench is tough. But the thing that makes our bench tough is a good 2nd unit. But if we had, say Booker, KD and Gordon out, or something like that. I don't think our bench could handle winning against starting units if 3 guys had to start, like 3 of Allen, Bates-Diop, Okogie, Yuta, Goodwin, etc. That may seem like a lot of injuries but it did happen last year. Though at the same time we still finished 4th despite only having Bridges and Ayton healthy (among main guys) for long stretches.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#50 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Oct 6, 2023 7:49 pm

bwgood77 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:
MrMiyagi wrote:I never realized how charismatic Brad Beal is. I think he's a great personality fit next to KD and Booker.
Yeah Beals always been viewed as a really good dude, he was really involved with the community in Washington too.

He's definitely no Harden or Kyrie personality wise and that's why I agree I think he's the right type of personality to play with KD and Booker.

Speaking of team personalities I feel like they might need the tough guy vocal leader type like a Crowder or PJ Tucker. Maybe Nurk can kind of fill that or one of the other role players.


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Yeah, Beal may end up being my favorite player with Bridges gone. Very charismatic, funny, will be a great teammate...a lot of personality. Plays hard and has a lot of talent.
The Beal trade happened so early in the off-season I feel people have already forgotten about it. I'm really curious to see him this season because he's never played with players this good before.

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#51 » by BobbieL » Fri Oct 6, 2023 8:09 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:Yeah Beals always been viewed as a really good dude, he was really involved with the community in Washington too.

He's definitely no Harden or Kyrie personality wise and that's why I agree I think he's the right type of personality to play with KD and Booker.

Speaking of team personalities I feel like they might need the tough guy vocal leader type like a Crowder or PJ Tucker. Maybe Nurk can kind of fill that or one of the other role players.


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Yeah, Beal may end up being my favorite player with Bridges gone. Very charismatic, funny, will be a great teammate...a lot of personality. Plays hard and has a lot of talent.
The Beal trade happened so early in the off-season I feel people have already forgotten about it. I'm really curious to see him this season because he's never played with players this good before.

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Except for the Ayton trade - the Suns were basically done on June 30 with their offseason. Maybe Gordon signed post July 4 but Beal was the week end before FA opened. And the Suns signed Bates-Diop, Eubanks, Yuta, et. al that first day within hours

So yes, Beak will be fun to watch. Aldridge speaks very highly of him - good teammate, great in community and obviously can score the ball.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#52 » by Frank Lee » Fri Oct 6, 2023 8:12 pm

Outside of KD, this might be the best team all these guys have ever played on
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#53 » by WeekapaugGroove » Fri Oct 6, 2023 8:29 pm

Well have to see it on the court but Beal is smart, mature and at a point in his career where he's had individual success but not the team success. That really seems like a recipe for a guy who will tailor his game to fit in and win vs trying to get his numbers. B

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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#54 » by bwgood77 » Fri Oct 6, 2023 8:38 pm

WeekapaugGroove wrote:
bwgood77 wrote:
WeekapaugGroove wrote:Yeah Beals always been viewed as a really good dude, he was really involved with the community in Washington too.

He's definitely no Harden or Kyrie personality wise and that's why I agree I think he's the right type of personality to play with KD and Booker.

Speaking of team personalities I feel like they might need the tough guy vocal leader type like a Crowder or PJ Tucker. Maybe Nurk can kind of fill that or one of the other role players.


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Yeah, Beal may end up being my favorite player with Bridges gone. Very charismatic, funny, will be a great teammate...a lot of personality. Plays hard and has a lot of talent.
The Beal trade happened so early in the off-season I feel people have already forgotten about it. I'm really curious to see him this season because he's never played with players this good before.

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Yeah, as you know I didn't like the first trade, but really loved the no brainer Beal trade. I don't know why anyone would have a problem with that one. I would really like our now and future if we had Booker/Beal/Bridges/Cam and all of our firsts going forward. I feel like we could be a contender for a long time....regardless of what we did with Ayton.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#56 » by sunsbum » Sat Oct 7, 2023 12:03 am

bwgood77 wrote:
Jdiddy701 wrote:
sunsbum wrote:The FG% dropped probably because the defense was key'd in on him with book being out I'd imagine. I never really thought about it but it will be interesting to see Ayton play a full season with out the gravity of Paul and Booker. People keep blaming them for the style of offense that wasn't conducive to DA's style of play but how much credit are we not giving them for things like pulling their defenders away from him etc.

I remember BWGOOD praised DA all the time for the gravity he creates for everyone but never mentioned the same for Booker, CP3 or KD. Portland should be really good since DA makes things so much easier for everyone!


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Well Portland has a rookie and a second year player, along with a pretty young Simons and Grant who likes to get his own. The gravity and scoring will help, but they just are not as good.

Yes, of course Book, CP3 and KD were better and require more attention on D (particularly D and Book) but Ayton had gravity. Obviously if watching you saw that when he got the ball he often had a couple defenders in there and was never left open. A lot of people didn't like when he passed out when doubled but it was the right play with an open shooter with our talent. I mean regardless of how much people hate Ayton, once he had the ball, even though he couldn't dribble, he was one of the best shooters/scorers for a C outside of the very best, so he obviously had that gravity.

It's not really huge praise...it's just a fact that his gravity helps. Nurkic, with the worst FG% for bigs, won't create that. He may end up being a better fit for other things he does, and fit in better off the court, and even though I wish we got more for Ayton, I do think the trade needed to be made all things considered.

And I know many probably assume I loved Ayton, but he wasn't one of my favorite players and I didn't want to draft him, and he frustrated me. I just played devil's advocate because I thought even though he was frustrating he took WAY more criticism, bashing than he deserved when other players struggled at times as well. He just seemed like a scapegoat.

I was probably his biggest critic as a rookie and really pissed some people off. So I backed off and then people even ended up getting worse than I had, despite his big improvements each year after his rookie year (except last year when our team was banged up all year and his role turned into something more than it should have been. I never thought he should be a #1 option..and playing with 2nd/3rd stringers, despite more shots, was obviously not going to play as well).
I think we all know that DA played in the same space as 2 of our superstars. I honestly can say I don't know how much that impacted any of them individually. But I think it will be something to keep an eye on. Lets be honest, there were times when KD was sitting in a corner waiving his hands for a shot... is that going to change? Whos the linchpin here? Beal, Book or KD? Whos going to bend at the knee? I have a feeling it will (and should IMO) be brad but we don't know, and I think thats why the rest of the NBA world is holding their breath on the suns.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#57 » by Jdiddy701 » Sat Oct 7, 2023 12:31 am

I still can’t believe we got Bradley Beal for a broken down Chris Paul and Landry Shamet. Seriously think about that! There were a lot of people that said the Suns are fools to take on Beal’s contract. Can’t wait to see what those people have to say soon.

Can you imagine how Miami is feeling? They thought they were going to get Dame so they moved on from
Beal. Still can’t believe the Suns got Beal for scraps.


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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#58 » by SunsRback4Good » Sat Oct 7, 2023 2:12 am

Jdiddy701 wrote:I still can’t believe we got Bradley Beal for a broken down Chris Paul and Landry Shamet. Seriously think about that! There were a lot of people that said the Suns are fools to take on Beal’s contract. Can’t wait to see what those people have to say soon.

Can you imagine how Miami is feeling? They thought they were going to get Dame so they moved on from
Beal. Still can’t believe the Suns got Beal for scraps.


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If I was gay, Beal would be my perfect partner. There’s just something about him that completely turns me on. The dark complexion is an add on for sure.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#59 » by grumpysaddle » Sat Oct 7, 2023 3:40 am

The more videos I watch breaking down Nurkic's passing, the more I like the trade. If he's motivated to stay in shape and healthy, and the Suns utilize him correctly, he could lead the team in assists. Also, I like that he isn't scared to hit some guys and that he has a silky looking stroke from 3. He'll be better at offensive rebounds and probably defensive ones than the other guy we had.
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Re: 2023-24 Season Discussion and Speculation 3 - Post Free Agency Discussion 

Post#60 » by Bogyo » Sat Oct 7, 2023 6:08 am

bwgood77 wrote:
sunsbum wrote:I think most fans are severely underestimating our roster. Not only do we have 3 unselfish superstars but we have the best bench in the NBA, a defensive minded championship coach and an entire roster of vets who want to win. On paper some teams might have top end pieces that fit together better in a traditional sense but who is standing toe to toe with Book/Beal/KD? Also, there is no way Beal is averaging more than KD this year. I’d offer a signature bet but I know better as I’ve seen these back peddling “predictions” before.


I think we have one of the, if not the best rosters, and our bench is tough. But the thing that makes our bench tough is a good 2nd unit. But if we had, say Booker, KD and Gordon out, or something like that. I don't think our bench could handle winning against starting units if 3 guys had to start, like 3 of Allen, Bates-Diop, Okogie, Yuta, Goodwin, etc. That may seem like a lot of injuries but it did happen last year. Though at the same time we still finished 4th despite only having Bridges and Ayton healthy (among main guys) for long stretches.


I think we have the best roster for sure. I don't necessarily think we have the best top 7 which really counts in game 6-7 of the WCF and the Finals.

Here is hoping that everybody will be healthy then and we had enough time to gel by then.
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