Around the NBA - 23-24 Other playoff series

[garrick]

Denver showing they are way superior to us by avoiding a sweep and spanking the Wolves.

It also helps the Wolves weren't allowed to manhandle the Nuggets and they went ice cold from the field.

[Fo-Real]

Knicks/Pacers is a joy to watch. Great basketball by both teams. Great defenders everywhere, precise plays and passing and BIG shots hit by both teams!! Its exciting!!

[mkot]

Been saying it that you beat this Wolves team playing uptempo style. They are terrible on transition defense and Malone made the change unlike Vogel

The Suns don't have the personnel to make the adjustments necessary. The Wolves is not a good offensive team so it had to start from the defensive end and we simply don't have good defensive personnel to do it. And we also don't have a historic offensive system versatile and resilient enough to counter the Wolves historic defensive schemes.

The Nuggets had the Wolves defense figured out in G3, the ball pressure obviously did not bother them as much as it did in G2 (some normal whistles and a healthier Murray helped too) so in G4 the Wolves doubled down and sent KAT, Kyle Anderson and Naz Reid to pressure Aaron Gordon up full court and let Gobert meet the ball in the middle. Big mistake and Gordon went off. They even tried NAW and Conley with quicker feet but Gordon just took them to the weight room for easy layup or dunk. He made some jumpers that he usually misses but he mostly feeds off iso on mis-match, dunks/layups off the Jokic Murray pnr, so I don't see much regression there if the Wolves don't have another plan to counter the Orlando days Aaron Gordon. MPJ and KCP made 0 3s in G4 so that's the scary part.

We are very far away from being on the same tier as these two teams are, defensively and offensively. We also lack the toughness to fight back adversity and physicality and it starts with our leader(s).

[garrick]

Been saying it that you beat this Wolves team playing uptempo style. They are terrible on transition defense and Malone made the change unlike Vogel

The Suns don't have the personnel to make the adjustments necessary. The Wolves is not a good offensive team so it had to start from the defensive end and we simply don't have good defensive personnel to do it. And we also don't have a historic offensive system versatile and resilient enough to counter the Wolves historic defensive schemes.

The Nuggets had the Wolves defense figured out in G3, the ball pressure obviously did not bother them as much as it did in G2 (some normal whistles and a healthier Murray helped too) so in G4 the Wolves doubled down and sent KAT, Kyle Anderson and Naz Reid to pressure Aaron Gordon up full court and let Gobert meet the ball in the middle. Big mistake and Gordon went off. They even tried NAW and Conley with quicker feet but Gordon just took them to the weight room for easy layup or dunk. He made some jumpers that he usually misses but he mostly feeds off iso on mis-match, dunks/layups off the Jokic Murray pnr, so I don't see much regression there if the Wolves don't have another plan to counter the Orlando days Aaron Gordon. MPJ and KCP made 0 3s in G4 so that's the scary part.

We are very far away from being on the same tier as these two teams are, defensively and offensively. We also lack the toughness to fight back adversity and physicality and it starts with our leader(s).

It all goes back to Booker being atrocious in passing out of double teams and KD is also notorious for coughing up the ball under pressure so the Wolves were able to hound and let us cough up the ball.

We lack the ball handling and the size needed to retaliate against bully ball and rolling out a 3 guard lineup doesn't help at all.

[garrick]

Been saying it that you beat this Wolves team playing uptempo style. They are terrible on transition defense and Malone made the change unlike Vogel

The Suns don't have the personnel to make the adjustments necessary. The Wolves is not a good offensive team so it had to start from the defensive end and we simply don't have good defensive personnel to do it. And we also don't have a historic offensive system versatile and resilient enough to counter the Wolves historic defensive schemes.

The Nuggets had the Wolves defense figured out in G3, the ball pressure obviously did not bother them as much as it did in G2 (some normal whistles and a healthier Murray helped too) so in G4 the Wolves doubled down and sent KAT, Kyle Anderson and Naz Reid to pressure Aaron Gordon up full court and let Gobert meet the ball in the middle. Big mistake and Gordon went off. They even tried NAW and Conley with quicker feet but Gordon just took them to the weight room for easy layup or dunk. He made some jumpers that he usually misses but he mostly feeds off iso on mis-match, dunks/layups off the Jokic Murray pnr, so I don't see much regression there if the Wolves don't have another plan to counter the Orlando days Aaron Gordon. MPJ and KCP made 0 3s in G4 so that's the scary part.

We are very far away from being on the same tier as these two teams are, defensively and offensively. We also lack the toughness to fight back adversity and physicality and it starts with our leader(s).

Doublepost.

[TeamTragic]

Wolves getting smashed so I guess Vogel was dog **** and KD being pissed was justified.

JUSTICE

[SunsRback4Good]

Wolves getting smashed so I guess Vogel was dog **** and KD being pissed was justified.

JUSTICE

Wolves still spank our azz in 4/5 games even if we had Bud, Spo, Popovich. It’s not about the coach but the way our team is constructed. Wake up and smell the covfee Tragic.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Wolves getting smashed so I guess Vogel was dog **** and KD being pissed was justified.

JUSTICE

Wolves still spank our azz in 4/5 games even if we had Bud, Spo, Popovich. It’s not about the coach but the way our team is constructed. Wake up and smell the covfee Tragic.

This is a spot on assessment!
Our issues run much deeper than just the coach. Our roster construction is horribly flawed with redundancy and positional weaknesses that have gone unaddressed for years and have quite predictably been exploited as many have previously discussed here. On top of that, our culture is complete garbage too, in that we're both soft mentally and physically with no fight, no hunger, no sense of urgency and no professionalism.

Then we trade our promising young core that was ironically equally as close to contention as this faux super team just so the new ownership can make a splashy But very shortsighted move to try and clout chase. Our front office is horribly incompetent. They have no real plans or strategy aside from trying to copy the Prokorov Nets and the recent Brooklyn nets gimmick that failed so badly. They completely lack ingenuity, vision and foresight.

They gave us a lame duck coach who wasn't their first or even 2nd choice in Vogel, and added no legit depth or proper roster balance. Only three redundant one way players eating up 90% of the teams flexibility. This trainwreck is just leaving the station too, and we're all prisoners along for the ride until it derails spectacularly. Long painful rebuild lies ahead! But at least as suns fans, we all share in the misery and idiocy together.

[sunsbg]

Must be feeling great to have Jokic as a leader rather than someone who looks for escape as soon as things don't go his way.

Wolves fans getting Suns fans '21 finals experience right now. At least one other franchise will remain title-less. lol

[garrick]

Must be feeling great to have Jokic as a leader rather than someone who looks for escape as soon as things don't go his way.

Wolves fans getting Suns fans '21 finals experience right now. At least one other franchise will remain title-less. lol

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10120860-nba-rumors-kevin-durant-went-more-than-a-month-without-speaking-to-ex-suns-hc-vogel

Apparently KD wasn't even speaking to Vogel for weeks which kind of explains how KD was often shown sitting off in a corner by himself moping during timeouts during the regular season.

I can't believe we have this coach killer and locker room cancer as our most valuable player and it's not surprise we are a treadmill team without any kind of leadership from Book or KD. It's the worst pairing to have with Booker who isn't a leader himself and has some of the same traits as KD.

Hopefully coach Bud doesn't put up with this nonsense and makes KD so uncomfortable that he asks out for a trade to Miami or somewhere.

[Desertfox]

So we had a coach who wouldn't talk to his players and now we have a player that wont talk to his coach...

[Ghost of Kleine]

Durant not really talking to anyone including his coach and teammates is not too much of a surprise given his history. It's really kind of his M.O. honestly. But in order to make that work successfully, as it did in GS, you really need another strong leader that is vocal and holds everyone accountable!

You also need proper team construction with legitimate depth, utility players to do the dirty work, and players with specific complimentary skillsets that strengthen his overall game and can play off of him. Our team really has none of those things. Our leaders are quiet and passive, even Booker isn't fiery and vocal, so we don't have accountability.

Vogel was hired specifically to work with Ayton defensively and turn him into a defensive anchor for us. But he wasn't even our first or second option for our coach. He was chosen as a consolation after Budenholzer rejected us for the 2nd time!! And then after Nurse chose Philly over us. We knew he was not an offensive coach, which is why we overpaid Young to split duties with him. And then Vogel was given very low end vet min offensive players with no real legitimate defensive players on the roster aside from maybe Okogie.

Our roster was/ is flawed, we have redundancy and overlap instead of depth and balance. And our stars are passive, meek B options instead of actual alphas. We lack heart, willingness to fight or the urgency and professionalism to get things done at a high level. We're missing a lot of key pieces that legit contenders have. No coach out there can fix all of our issues if our stars don't commit to sacrificing their habits.

And the outcome stays the same until we change our roster composition and cultural perspective.

[bwgood77]

Wolves getting smashed so I guess Vogel was dog **** and KD being pissed was justified.

JUSTICE

Wolves still spank our azz in 4/5 games even if we had Bud, Spo, Popovich. It’s not about the coach but the way our team is constructed. Wake up and smell the covfee Tragic.

This is a spot on assessment!
Our issues run much deeper than just the coach. Our roster construction is horribly flawed with redundancy and positional weaknesses that have gone unaddressed for years and have quite predictably been exploited as many have previously discussed here. On top of that, our culture is complete garbage too, in that we're both soft mentally and physically with no fight, no hunger, no sense of urgency and no professionalism.

Then we trade our promising young core that was ironically equally as close to contention as this faux super team just so the new ownership can make a splashy But very shortsighted move to try and clout chase. Our front office is horribly incompetent. They have no real plans or strategy aside from trying to copy the Prokorov Nets and the recent Brooklyn nets gimmick that failed so badly. They completely lack ingenuity, vision and foresight.

They gave us a lame duck coach who wasn't their first or even 2nd choice in Vogel, and added no legit depth or proper roster balance. Only three redundant one way players eating up 90% of the teams flexibility. This trainwreck is just leaving the station too, and we're all prisoners along for the ride until it derails spectacularly. Long painful rebuild lies ahead! But at least as suns fans, we all share in the misery and idiocy together.

Once we get a couple second rounders and undrafted guys, we should rise to the top!

[Desertfox]

Durant not really talking to anyone including his coach and teammates is not too much of a surprise given his history. It's really kind of his M.O. honestly. But in order to make that work successfully, as it did in GS, you really need another strong leader that is vocal and holds everyone accountable!

You also need proper team construction with legitimate depth, utility players to do the dirty work, and players with specific complimentary skillsets that strengthen his overall game and can play off of him. Our team really has none of those things. Our leaders are quiet and passive, even Booker isn't fiery and vocal, so we don't have accountability.

Vogel was hired specifically to work with Ayton defensively and turn him into a defensive anchor for us. But he wasn't even our first or second option for our coach. He was chosen as a consolation after Budenholzer rejected us for the 2nd time!! And then after Nurse chose Philly over us. We knew he was not an offensive coach, which is why we overpaid Young to split duties with him. And then Vogel was given very low end vet min offensive players with no real legitimate defensive players on the roster aside from maybe Okogie.

Our roster was/ is flawed, we have redundancy and overlap instead of depth and balance. And our stars are passive, meek B options instead of actual alphas. We lack heart, willingness to fight or the urgency and professionalism to get things done at a high level. We're missing a lot of key pieces that legit contenders have. No coach out there can fix all of our issues if our stars don't commit to sacrificing their habits.

And the outcome stays the same until we change our roster composition and cultural perspective.

We really do love to hire coaches and then immediately kneecap them. First Igor K with Luka and then Vogel with Ayton...

[Ghost of Kleine]

Wolves still spank our azz in 4/5 games even if we had Bud, Spo, Popovich. It’s not about the coach but the way our team is constructed. Wake up and smell the covfee Tragic.

This is a spot on assessment!
Our issues run much deeper than just the coach. Our roster construction is horribly flawed with redundancy and positional weaknesses that have gone unaddressed for years and have quite predictably been exploited as many have previously discussed here. On top of that, our culture is complete garbage too, in that we're both soft mentally and physically with no fight, no hunger, no sense of urgency and no professionalism.

Then we trade our promising young core that was ironically equally as close to contention as this faux super team just so the new ownership can make a splashy But very shortsighted move to try and clout chase. Our front office is horribly incompetent. They have no real plans or strategy aside from trying to copy the Prokorov Nets and the recent Brooklyn nets gimmick that failed so badly. They completely lack ingenuity, vision and foresight.

They gave us a lame duck coach who wasn't their first or even 2nd choice in Vogel, and added no legit depth or proper roster balance. Only three redundant one way players eating up 90% of the teams flexibility. This trainwreck is just leaving the station too, and we're all prisoners along for the ride until it derails spectacularly. Long painful rebuild lies ahead! But at least as suns fans, we all share in the misery and idiocy together.

Once we get a couple second second-rounders and undrafted guys, we should rise to the top!

LOL! Vieled sarcasm aside! both 2nd rounders and undrafted guys can still offer a positive impact that while obviously may not yield immediate results, in time could cumulatively get things back on the right track! I think we're all aware that our mess can't be cleaned up overnight! However, adding cost-effective young talent is a viable strategy to at the base minimum add tangible depth and legitimate assets WITH PERCEIVED UPSIDE VALUE as opposed to the constant undesirable low outcome diminished value retread cast off options that nobody (aside from our front office really wants).

I mean clearly if these vet min experiments had actual value or perceived scalable value, then they wouldn't be available for the vet minimum now would they? I don't know about you, but I'm tired of watching this franchise ignore the draft while all of the other franchises load up on cost-controlled young complementary talent, develop them, and then flip them for higher value returns that make them significantly better/stronger. And our front office just keeps scouring the bargain bin garbage time players hoping for a very anomalous outcome that these almost out-of-the-league players will significantly outplay their deals and become desirable assets and/or desirable trade assets. Again, there's a reason they're so affordable and available and not commanding bigger contracts/higher salaries. Because they've already established their relative bottom-tier values over significant periods of time.

This is why you rarely (if ever) see vet min players as key pieces in significant trade deals returning impact or high-value talent. Sure I'd prefer first-round picks over 2nds or undrafted options. But we deal within the context of the behavioral tendencies and proclivities of our front office. And IF they yet again trade our first-round pick in a mediocre trade for some middling underperforming talent, then our only options left aside from those already established low-value/low-outcome retreads is the very 2nd round options and undrafted options you're low-key deriding me about. By the way, the MVP that is still playing while our players are on early vacation was a 2nd rounder, and while I agree that is an extreme outlier example for a 2nd rounder, there have still been many very good and impactful players from the 2nd round and even undrafted ranges that really played well for their teams, and/ or have even played significant roles to them getting to a championship:

2nd round steals
Nikola Jokic, Manu Ginobli, Dennis Rodman, Draymond Green, Marc Gasol, Toni Kukoc, Paul Milsap, Gilbert Arenas, Khris Middleton, Jerami Grant, Carlos Boozer, Goran Dragic, Mark Price, Doc Rivers, Jeff Hornacek, Danny Ainge, Bojan Bogdanovic, Isaiah Thomas, Jalen Brunson, DeAndre Jordan, Jordan Clarkson, Montrez Harrell, Steve Kerr, Lance Stephenson, Marcin Gortat, Kyle Korver, Rashard Lewis, Joe Harris, Mehmet Okur, Norman Powell, Danny Green, Lou Williams, Pat Beverly, PJ Brown, Patty Mills, DeAnthony Melton, Gary Trent Jr, Jae Crowder, Steven Jackson, Nick van Excel, Anderson Varejo, Trevor Ariza, Monta Ellis, Malcolm Brogdon, PJ Tucker Herb Jones, Pat Connaughton, Dillon Brooks, Mo Williams, GG Jackson, Toumani Camara and still many others too!

How many of those players would you honestly take in a heartbeat over what we currently have for our bench options?? And then you have undrafted steals, while admittedly more rare, still a cost-effective pathway to add depth and talent better than picked through low-tier vet min options:

Undrafted steals
Ben Wallace, Fred Van Vleet, Alex Caruso, Austin Reeves, Naz Reid, Lugen Dortz, TJ McConnell, Dorian Finney Smith, Gary Payton 2nd, Caleb Martin, Duncan Robinson, Christian Wood, Robert Covington, Seth Curry, Royce O'neale,Maxi Kleber, Daniel Theiss, Jose Alvarado, Torrey Craig, Derrick Jones Jr, Justin Holiday, Kenrich Williams, JaMychael Green, Chris Boucher, Aaron Baynes, Chris "birdman Anderson", Boban Marjonovic', John Starks, Bruce Bowen, Brad Miller, Avery Johnson, Jose Calderon, JJ Barea, Udonis Haslem, Juan Toscano Anderson, Naji Marshall, Joe Ingles, Wesley Matthews, Daniel House, Raja Bell, Jeremy Lin, Matt Delladova, Timofey Mosgov, David Wesley, Andres Nocioni, Kent Bazemore, Kendrick Nunn, Carlos Arroyo, Chucky Atkins, Marquis Daniels, Ime Udoka, Garrett Temple, CJ Watson, Dean Wade, Bryn Forbes, Milos teosodic, Quinn Cook, Langston Galloway, Bo Outlaw, Langston Galloway, and so on and so on........

Sure the draft is a crapshoot to a certain degree! But in the 2nd round and even more so in the undrafted ranges, the overall implied risks vs the high outcome rewards are pretty minimal. Especially if you have an owner that's willing to actually spend and invest. And that minimal risk is mitigated even more by simply researching targeted prospects diligently rather than sidestepping or ignoring such investments. vet mins are a widely-known commodity that again has established their low value by their body of work over time. All ignoring the draft for repeated vet minimum options really tells everyone is that our front office is simply too lazy and/or arrogant to actually do the work like top franchises do to identify hidden talents, and also too lazy to bother developing them as either scalable and desirable assets or as potential impact depth contributory options.

[TeamTragic]

Wolves getting smashed so I guess Vogel was dog **** and KD being pissed was justified.

JUSTICE

Wolves still spank our azz in 4/5 games even if we had Bud, Spo, Popovich. It’s not about the coach but the way our team is constructed. Wake up and smell the covfee Tragic.

I'm not getting your point. We got swept and everyone was pretending the Wolves are a super team when in reality Vogel is a garbage tier coach.

Time to stop making excuses and hire a coaching staff that is actually relevant in the NBA today.

[TeamTragic]

Nuggets scored 9 points in the 4Q before getting blown out by 45 points

[MrMiyagi]

Nuggets scored 9 points in the 4Q before getting blown out by 45 points

We are not the fanbase to throw those stones.

[TeamTragic]

Nuggets scored 9 points in the 4Q before getting blown out by 45 points

We are not the fanbase to throw those stones.

Did we win a championship with a three-time MVP?

[SunsRback4Good]

Nuggets scored 9 points in the 4Q before getting blown out by 45 points

We are not the fanbase to throw those stones.

Did we win a championship with a three-time MVP?

Yes, we did. Next question?