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Qwigglez wrote:

sunskerr wrote:Not gonna lie I think of the guys we got in the trade he's the one Im most excited to see. In theory he fits like a glove with the shooting and defense, lots of dirty work even if he is a dirty player. Skill set is a Vogel-type of guy. We were missing someone like Allen without Crowder and Paul. And he's under 30 years old which is always a nice plus. With all three of our stars being shooters its a perfect situation for him.

I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Interesting comparison, they have some common attributes for sure.

Raja Bell was more strictly a 3&D player, he couldn't dribble the ball and wasn't a good passer but he was great as a perimeter defender and as a catch-and-shoot sniper.

Grayson is an all-around SG who excells at 3p shooting but can do a bit of everything at a solid level.

He played a big role on the Bucks so we know that we have a rotation player ...not sure about starting, I would prefer a bigger player next to Beal and Book but I think he can earn the spot at some point of the season.

Saberestar wrote:

Qwigglez wrote:

sunskerr wrote:Not gonna lie I think of the guys we got in the trade he's the one Im most excited to see. In theory he fits like a glove with the shooting and defense, lots of dirty work even if he is a dirty player. Skill set is a Vogel-type of guy. We were missing someone like Allen without Crowder and Paul. And he's under 30 years old which is always a nice plus. With all three of our stars being shooters its a perfect situation for him.

I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Interesting comparison, they have some common attributes for sure.

Raja Bell was more strictly a 3&D player, he couldn't dribble the ball and wasn't a good passer but he was great as a perimeter defender and as a catch-and-shoot sniper.

Grayson is an all-around SG who excells at 3p shooting but can do a bit of everything at a solid level.

He played a big role on the Bucks so we know that we have a rotation player ...not sure about starting, I would prefer a bigger player next to Beal and Book but I think he can earn the spot at some point of the season.

Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Watched some of his vision and his stats and he actually shoots better with a defender close to him and has a quick release doesn't need much space. Think that will be suited to the 2nd unit and maybe as a closer.

Imagine Beal, Gordon, Allen, Watanabe, Eubanks in the 2nd unit it's just going to a lot of drive and kick out for 3s and he can take the best bench wing on defense.

bwgood77 wrote:

Saberestar wrote:

Qwigglez wrote:
I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Interesting comparison, they have some common attributes for sure.

Raja Bell was more strictly a 3&D player, he couldn't dribble the ball and wasn't a good passer but he was great as a perimeter defender and as a catch-and-shoot sniper.

Grayson is an all-around SG who excells at 3p shooting but can do a bit of everything at a solid level.

He played a big role on the Bucks so we know that we have a rotation player ...not sure about starting, I would prefer a bigger player next to Beal and Book but I think he can earn the spot at some point of the season.

Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Got absolutely spanked by Tatum (and Boston) in last years playoffs on defense. Sure, some of that was just bad coaching/scheming on the Bucks part, and Tatum was playing really good, but he is not some kind of defensive stopper. He will (could) be a really good bench piece tho, so I am glad to have him.

Bogyo wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

Saberestar wrote:Interesting comparison, they have some common attributes for sure.

Raja Bell was more strictly a 3&D player, he couldn't dribble the ball and wasn't a good passer but he was great as a perimeter defender and as a catch-and-shoot sniper.

Grayson is an all-around SG who excells at 3p shooting but can do a bit of everything at a solid level.

He played a big role on the Bucks so we know that we have a rotation player ...not sure about starting, I would prefer a bigger player next to Beal and Book but I think he can earn the spot at some point of the season.

Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Got absolutely spanked by Tatum (and Boston) in last years playoffs on defense. Sure, some of that was just bad coaching/scheming on the Bucks part, and Tatum was playing really good, but he is not some kind of defensive stopper. He will (could) be a really good bench piece tho, so I am glad to have him.

There's only so much a perimeter defender can do against a top 10 offensive talent.

He'll make it tough on anyone else, which is what we need after losing Bridges and Crowder.

NapoleonII wrote:

Bogyo wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:
Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Got absolutely spanked by Tatum (and Boston) in last years playoffs on defense. Sure, some of that was just bad coaching/scheming on the Bucks part, and Tatum was playing really good, but he is not some kind of defensive stopper. He will (could) be a really good bench piece tho, so I am glad to have him.

There's only so much a perimeter defender can do against a top 10 offensive talent.

He'll make it tough on anyone else, which is what we need after losing Bridges and Crowder.

While yes, there are levels to this. He is a scrappy/bit dirty defender but he is not that good honestly. Boston built a strategy to get him on Tatum and beat the Bucks like that - you can't/dont want to do that against a good defender. Again, he I am happy that he is on the team, and I think he could have a very important role off the bench, but he is not an all-defensive team candidate by any means, he is way below Majerle, Bridges and Crowder levels.

Bogyo wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:

Saberestar wrote:Interesting comparison, they have some common attributes for sure.

Raja Bell was more strictly a 3&D player, he couldn't dribble the ball and wasn't a good passer but he was great as a perimeter defender and as a catch-and-shoot sniper.

Grayson is an all-around SG who excells at 3p shooting but can do a bit of everything at a solid level.

He played a big role on the Bucks so we know that we have a rotation player ...not sure about starting, I would prefer a bigger player next to Beal and Book but I think he can earn the spot at some point of the season.

Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Got absolutely spanked by Tatum (and Boston) in last years playoffs on defense. Sure, some of that was just bad coaching/scheming on the Bucks part, and Tatum was playing really good, but he is not some kind of defensive stopper. He will (could) be a really good bench piece tho, so I am glad to have him.

It's Tatum. Dude is a top 10 player in the league and top 3 at his position. Tatum is also 4-5in taller than Allen. I'm not saying Allen is better than people think he is defensively but Tatum is cooking everyone.

lilfishi22 wrote:

Bogyo wrote:

bwgood77 wrote:
Poor man's Majerle (though better from 3).

Got absolutely spanked by Tatum (and Boston) in last years playoffs on defense. Sure, some of that was just bad coaching/scheming on the Bucks part, and Tatum was playing really good, but he is not some kind of defensive stopper. He will (could) be a really good bench piece tho, so I am glad to have him.

It's Tatum. Dude is a top 10 player in the league and top 3 at his position. Tatum is also 4-5in taller than Allen. I'm not saying Allen is better than people think he is defensively but Tatum is cooking everyone.

Not debating that part, but if Simmons is still having a woody remembering that and yelling "get Tatum on Allen" should tell you that I'm kinda right about the subject in general. (In his reaction pod covering the trade... btw he kinda hates the trade overall for the Suns - but then again he doesn't really seem to know the full depths of the Ayton situation, and basically doesn't really acknowledge the fact that some of the missed games of Nurkic were due to tanking, etc...)
Greyson Allen is a good/scrappy/dirty defender. But Greyson Allen is not a defensive cornerstone some are trying to make him out to be.

From last month:

Grayson Allen always committed to getting better! Been training for almost three years now! Way to shoot this week. See you next month. -Stay locked in!

Grayson Allen looks like he hits the gym in the morning, is a politician in the afternoon, and a hooper at night.

Qwigglez wrote:

sunskerr wrote:Not gonna lie I think of the guys we got in the trade he's the one Im most excited to see. In theory he fits like a glove with the shooting and defense, lots of dirty work even if he is a dirty player. Skill set is a Vogel-type of guy. We were missing someone like Allen without Crowder and Paul. And he's under 30 years old which is always a nice plus. With all three of our stars being shooters its a perfect situation for him.

I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

TunaFish wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

They don't have any plans to get under the tax apron is my impression. I think the new owner Matt Ishbia is taking a different approach. He seen the tremendous growth of the Warriors franchise value and they have been over the tax for a while now. I would assume Ishbia is trying to replicate that business model and he understands he'll still be making loads of money even with the extra taxes.

TunaFish wrote:

Qwigglez wrote:

sunskerr wrote:Not gonna lie I think of the guys we got in the trade he's the one Im most excited to see. In theory he fits like a glove with the shooting and defense, lots of dirty work even if he is a dirty player. Skill set is a Vogel-type of guy. We were missing someone like Allen without Crowder and Paul. And he's under 30 years old which is always a nice plus. With all three of our stars being shooters its a perfect situation for him.

I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

We are comfortable over the 2nd apron and that's by design. The trade added salary and I believe with tax, it was like +$5m overall. This trade wasn't about reducing our tax obligations or getting under the 2nd apron however it does give us more flexibility to do so should we decide to. Prior to the trade, we essentially had 4 super massive salaries which are difficult to move and with this trade, we took one of those big salaries and turned them into multiple smaller, easier to move salaries.

So if we're $6.5m over the 2nd apron (I'm assuming you're right, I haven't looked since the trade), and we're looking to get under, we couldn't do it before without moving one of the big salaries because the vet min contracts isn't going to move the needle. But with the smaller, more manageable deals, we could move Little (team friendly rookie extension deal) or Allen ($8m expiring) for tax relief and possibly get under the 2nd apron this year.

Qwigglez wrote:

TunaFish wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

They don't have any plans to get under the tax apron is my impression. I think the new owner Matt Ishbia is taking a different approach. He seen the tremendous growth of the Warriors franchise value and they have been over the tax for a while now. I would assume Ishbia is trying to replicate that business model and he understands he'll still be making loads of money even with the extra taxes.

You could be right as the Warriors seem to be headed down this path. However, you trade Ayton essentially for Nurkic and you save 15 million. Now you are a lot closer to being under the Tax 2nd apron by about 6.5 million and in a single trade unloading Allen, you are under the apron. Sure looks like that is on the horizon but if the 2nd apron is really not a threat, so be it.

lilfishi22 wrote:

TunaFish wrote:

Qwigglez wrote:
I posted in the general trade speculation threat, but I think Grayson Allen could potentially be our modern day Raja Bell. Does the dirty work, guards the opposing teams best perimeter player, and hits the three. I think he might come out as our starting SF, or even slide Booker to SF and have Allen as SG. I think having him start will give the Suns their best 5-man unit in terms of offensive output (along with EG replacing him in a much more limited sample size).

Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

We are comfortable over the 2nd apron and that's by design. The trade added salary and I believe with tax, it was like +$5m overall. This trade wasn't about reducing our tax obligations or getting under the 2nd apron however it does give us more flexibility to do so should we decide to. Prior to the trade, we essentially had 4 super massive salaries which are difficult to move and with this trade, we took one of those big salaries and turned them into multiple smaller, easier to move salaries.

So if we're $6.5m over the 2nd apron (I'm assuming you're right, I haven't looked since the trade), and we're looking to get under, we couldn't do it before without moving one of the big salaries because the vet min contracts isn't going to move the needle. But with the smaller, more manageable deals, we could move Little (team friendly rookie extension deal) or Allen ($8m expiring) for tax relief and possibly get under the 2nd apron this year.

That is the point I was trying to make that Allen may well be a method of getting under that apron. I suppose it depends on whether the Phoenix FO really can afford to be over the 2nd apron with the penalties that imposes.

TunaFish wrote:

lilfishi22 wrote:

TunaFish wrote:
Perhaps I am not understanding something about the new CBA but Phoenix is 6.5 mil over the second apron and Grayson Allen has a 8 mil contract. How will Phoenix get under the punitive tax apron unless they unload somebody and Allen looks to me to be a prime candidate. Is there another plan?

We are comfortable over the 2nd apron and that's by design. The trade added salary and I believe with tax, it was like +$5m overall. This trade wasn't about reducing our tax obligations or getting under the 2nd apron however it does give us more flexibility to do so should we decide to. Prior to the trade, we essentially had 4 super massive salaries which are difficult to move and with this trade, we took one of those big salaries and turned them into multiple smaller, easier to move salaries.

So if we're $6.5m over the 2nd apron (I'm assuming you're right, I haven't looked since the trade), and we're looking to get under, we couldn't do it before without moving one of the big salaries because the vet min contracts isn't going to move the needle. But with the smaller, more manageable deals, we could move Little (team friendly rookie extension deal) or Allen ($8m expiring) for tax relief and possibly get under the 2nd apron this year.

That is the point I was trying to make that Allen may well be a method of getting under that apron. I suppose it depends on whether the Phoenix FO really can afford to be over the 2nd apron with the penalties that imposes.

It's all about optionality. And we obviously would rather have the flexibility and the option than not. I personally think we were a very top-heavy team salary wise and at some point, that just can't continue because improving the team would almost need to be a multi team trade which is always exponentially more complex than a straight trade with another team. We saw an opportunity to get depth and become less top heavy which allows us to have more options should we want to trade to improve the team or find tax relief.

I hope we trade him.

I hear ya. Can't stand his dirty mug.

I'm sure Grayson is going to be the replacement for PJ Tucker and DA. Half the fans will love him and half hate him. Just like when Danny Ainge came to the Suns ... I'm already a fan.

He seems like an odd dude in his interview. Something about his body language. Closed off maybe?