Game 21: Suns @ Lakers - IST Quarters

[Revived]

People can talk about the last timeout play all they want but bottom line is that Suns should have never even been in that situation to begin with.

If Suns make playoffs, we better be praying to god that we don’t have to face the Lakers. Because they will absolutely beat the hell out of the Suns. The Lakers didn’t even play well and still were in control of the game the whole night. They would beat Phoenix like 4-1 in the playoffs. And no, old broken ass Bradley **** Beal isn’t gonna save ****.

LeBron and AD know exactly how to attack Frank Vogel’s defense and system and they’ve shown that time and time again. Obviously they have inside knowledge from having played for Vogel for several years. Vogel hasn’t been able to adjust to this at all.

And I love Booker quite a bit but this same trend of him wetting the bed in elimination games needs to stop. It’s clearly a mental thing for him at this point because his face looked scared the whole night. Forget the missed shots, Book looked like how he was on the verge of busting out crying from the start of the game. He needs to realize he’s a big time player and that he doesn’t need to be so damn scared of the moment. I’m sure he’ll go off on the Kings for like 60 pts or whatever next game on maybe 80% shooting or something but it doesn’t matter, because Booker now has earned a very well-earned reputation of being a massive choker in any type of elimination games.

James Jones needs to get off his ass and realize that this team needs a PG in the worst of ways. Trade for TJ McConnell or something. The amount of absolutely brain dead turnovers that this team has in so many games in this young season has desperately highlighted the need for another ball handler.

[spanishninja]

People can talk about the last timeout play all they want but bottom line is that Suns should have never even been in that situation to begin with.

If Suns make playoffs, we better be praying to god that we don’t have to face the Lakers. Because they will absolutely beat the hell out of the Suns. The Lakers didn’t even play well and still were in control of the game the whole night. They would beat Phoenix like 4-1 in the playoffs. And no, old broken ass Bradley **** Beal isn’t gonna save ****.

LeBron and AD know exactly how to attack Frank Vogel’s defense and system and they’ve shown that time and time again. Obviously they have inside knowledge from having played for Vogel for several years. Vogel hasn’t been able to adjust to this at all.

And I love Booker quite a bit but this same trend of him wetting the bed in elimination games needs to stop. It’s clearly a mental thing for him at this point because his face looked scared the whole night. Forget the missed shots, Book looked like how he was on the verge of busting out crying from the start of the game. He needs to realize he’s a big time player and that he doesn’t need to be so damn scared of the moment. I’m sure he’ll go off on the Kings for like 60 pts or whatever next game on maybe 80% shooting or something but it doesn’t matter, because Booker now has earned a very well-earned reputation of being a massive choker in any type of elimination games.

James Jones needs to get off his ass and realize that this team needs a PG in the worst of ways. Trade for TJ McConnell or something. The amount of absolutely brain dead turnovers that this team has in so many games in this young season has desperately highlighted the need for another ball handler.

yeah, 10 turnovers in the first quarter is a joke. we were lucky to be still in the game at halftime, let alone all the way down to the wire. Vogel knew exactly the kind of treatment the Lakers would get with playing physical and he didn't seem to do anything to counter.

[King4Day]

Just to vent a bit.
What hurts about yesterday is that they took almost 30 more shots than us and ONLY beat us by 3.
I want to say, "ok we clean that up and we'll be good in the future". But how many times do we have to say that until we determine that this is simply who this team is? One who is highly turnover prone, gives up big offensive boards, and fails in clutch time.

We have yet to have a season defining win. Our best wins were against the Warriors twice. The rest were against average to below average teams.
Against good teams, we've had chances to win them all, but came up short every time. Every single time. It's why that first loss against the Spurs, I'm still not over. Secure the ball and you win. Win the games you should not lose. But turnovers have defined the season.

I'm not at the point of feeling this is a lost season. Beal does have to return and we need to see if the rest of the roster returning to place will help.
If by the all-star break we are still struggling like this, it's likely a short playoff run for us with a lot of question marks going into the offseason.

Annnnyway.

I mean realistically speaking, how many people here actually think the Suns will win a championship this season? While trying to be completely unbiased, who do you think has a better chance of winning a title, the Suns or the Lakers? I mean if you’re being real with yourself, that answer should’ve been obvious even before last night’s game.

We make the Lakers look a lot better than they are. And they were trash last night. It took them 28 more shots to win by 3pts.
They aren't title contenders. Neither are we, but if I had to pick, I don't see either getting past round 2 right now.

[Saberestar]

I mean realistically speaking, how many people here actually think the Suns will win a championship this season? While trying to be completely unbiased, who do you think has a better chance of winning a title, the Suns or the Lakers? I mean if you’re being real with yourself, that answer should’ve been obvious even before last night’s game.

I do.

This team is gonna be unstoppable with Book, Beal and KD together. Yeah, health is a concern but you can say the same about every other contender. Any team missing an All-Star will be out of the championship race.

You actually can’t say the same about every other contender because no other contender has a team as injury prone as the Suns. Look up the amount of games Booker/KD/Beal/Gordon/Nurkic/Little etc have missed over the course of their career and compare it to players on the other contenders that you speak of.

I am too lazy to find all the games missed by players on other rcontenders but I can give you a few names...

Celtics? Porzingis
Nuggets? Murray and KPJ
Bucks? Middleton
Lakers? AD
Pelicans? Zion, Ingram and McCollum
Sixers? Embiid, Oubre

[Revived]

I do.

This team is gonna be unstoppable with Book, Beal and KD together. Yeah, health is a concern but you can say the same about every other contender. Any team missing an All-Star will be out of the championship race.

You actually can’t say the same about every other contender because no other contender has a team as injury prone as the Suns. Look up the amount of games Booker/KD/Beal/Gordon/Nurkic/Little etc have missed over the course of their career and compare it to players on the other contenders that you speak of.

I am too lazy to find all the games missed by players on other rcontenders but I can give you a few names...

Celtics? Porzingis
Nuggets? Murray and KPJ
Bucks? Middleton
Lakers? AD
Pelicans? Zion, Ingram and McCollum
Sixers? Embiid, Oubre

Cool you can name like 1 or 2 players from those teams that are injury prone? That’s nice. Meanwhile Suns have like 6-7 of its top rotation players who are injury prone as I mentioned.

But forget all that, we can keep it very simple. Look at the top 3 players of all other teams. And compare that to the durability of Booker/KD/Beal. Besides the Pelicans (who I don’t think anyone actually considers a title contender), none of those teams you mentioned have that.

[bwgood77]

It's one game, on the road, against the Lakers (who yes, will always get beneficial calls at home...but something we just have to deal with)..I never freak out after 1 game, but do hope we bounce back to beat the Kings.

Book had a horrible game and we still almost won.

I couldn't see when exactly that timeout was called at the end. Was it a few seconds before Grayson picked it up? If it was called earlier when they were all fighting for it, by the time Grayson picked it up there probably wouldn't have been enough time left anyway.

But at best it goes into OT at that point but it would have had to have been a quick bucket.

And then we still got a great opportunity with KD taking an open 3, but of course it is an airball....and he had a good shooting night. I know Book has been terrible in elimination games, but going back to any non GS days, KD has been bad in close games that were close outs or games facing elimination. They had 3 chances against the Warriors that one year and I know Westbrook was the biggest factor, but KD was there too.

He will have big playoff games but sometimes in close ones, in the moment, when it comes down to the wire, he must get nervous or something. In GS they were all blowouts....both Book and KD are good in those when there isn't the pressure.

So I hope in the playoffs the games are not close or we never are facing an elimination game if we go far. I imagine we will at some point win an elimination game, but so many stars have won quite a few of them....Jokic and Denver were down 3-1 in the bubble to the Clips and came back...I think they were down 3-1 to Utah too that year so they won at least 3 but maybe 6 elimation games.

Most of the big stars have risen to that occasion to do it...even young ones like Luka, so hopefully we can get over that hurdle. Harden has the same problem...and he even does closing out series. Very glad we don't have him.

[KLEON]

People can talk about the last timeout play all they want but bottom line is that Suns should have never even been in that situation to begin with.

If Suns make playoffs, we better be praying to god that we don’t have to face the Lakers. Because they will absolutely beat the hell out of the Suns. The Lakers didn’t even play well and still were in control of the game the whole night. They would beat Phoenix like 4-1 in the playoffs. And no, old broken ass Bradley **** Beal isn’t gonna save ****.

LeBron and AD know exactly how to attack Frank Vogel’s defense and system and they’ve shown that time and time again. Obviously they have inside knowledge from having played for Vogel for several years. Vogel hasn’t been able to adjust to this at all.

And I love Booker quite a bit but this same trend of him wetting the bed in elimination games needs to stop. It’s clearly a mental thing for him at this point because his face looked scared the whole night. Forget the missed shots, Book looked like how he was on the verge of busting out crying from the start of the game. He needs to realize he’s a big time player and that he doesn’t need to be so damn scared of the moment. I’m sure he’ll go off on the Kings for like 60 pts or whatever next game on maybe 80% shooting or something but it doesn’t matter, because Booker now has earned a very well-earned reputation of being a massive choker in any type of elimination games.

James Jones needs to get off his ass and realize that this team needs a PG in the worst of ways. Trade for TJ McConnell or something. The amount of absolutely brain dead turnovers that this team has in so many games in this young season has desperately highlighted the need for another ball handler.

I totally agree with you that we need a PG but lets not act as if this Suns team can't whip L.A arse. The only thing that worries me is the damn REFS

[sunsbg]

Nurk sucks so bad against AD. He should have a lot better game against below the rim player like Sabonis on Friday, with Kings being a potential opponent in the playoffs. Both teams look like 4-5 seed material to me. There is a chance Beal makes us look a lot better, but who knows in what shape he comes back and how many games he remains healthy.

[King4Day]

It's one game, on the road, against the Lakers (who yes, will always get beneficial calls at home...but something we just have to deal with)..I never freak out after 1 game, but do hope we bounce back to beat the Kings.

Book had a horrible game and we still almost won.

I couldn't see when exactly that timeout was called at the end. Was it a few seconds before Grayson picked it up? If it was called earlier when they were all fighting for it, by the time Grayson picked it up there probably wouldn't have been enough time left anyway.

But at best it goes into OT at that point but it would have had to have been a quick bucket.

And then we still got a great opportunity with KD taking an open 3, but of course it is an airball....and he had a good shooting night. I know Book has been terrible in elimination games, but going back to any non GS days, KD has been bad in close games that were close outs or games facing elimination. They had 3 chances against the Warriors that one year and I know Westbrook was the biggest factor, but KD was there too.

He will have big playoff games but sometimes in close ones, in the moment, when it comes down to the wire, he must get nervous or something. In GS they were all blowouts....both Book and KD are good in those when there isn't the pressure.

So I hope in the playoffs the games are not close or we never are facing an elimination game if we go far. I imagine we will at some point win an elimination game, but so many stars have won quite a few of them....Jokic and Denver were down 3-1 in the bubble to the Clips and came back...I think they were down 3-1 to Utah too that year so they won at least 3 but maybe 6 elimation games.

Most of the big stars have risen to that occasion to do it...even young ones like Luka, so hopefully we can get over that hurdle. Harden has the same problem...and he even does closing out series. Very glad we don't have him.

Even when you pause it at the time Bron calls time, it's clearly still loose (even if time is called the second his hands go together to request timeout).

Read on Twitter

[King4Day]

After seeing that video, and then seeing this response, where the ref says 'after video review'....
They were caught with their pants down. Amazing the lengths the NBA will go through to not admit an egregious error.
Again, we all know the suns put themselves in this spot, but c'mon now. I'm fine with them saying, the ref thought he had control. I get the game moves fast. But to flat out lie and say, 'upon video review, reaves had control, when he clearly did not', that's what is alarming to me.

Read on Twitter

[Puff]

My favorite team is ANYONE playing the Lakers, especially if it is the Phoenix Suns who are playing them.

Monty Williams from 2020 thru 2023 including playoffs 12 wins five losses versus the Lakers. Still hated the 5 losses but enjoyed the 12 wins.

With our championship coach Frank (no adjustments ever in the 4th quarter) Vogel - we are 0 and 3.

I can put up with losing 2 games to the Spurs, who can't beat anyone, but I cannot stand to lose to the Lakers anytime anywhere.

It is probably a good thing we lost, as we probably would have got rolled by New Orleans. I will be rooting for Willie Green to take care of the business that was above the skill level of our championship coach.

[pj0tr]

Book looked petrified going against the Lakers defense and the Lakers knew it.

Psychologically, the Lakers own us right now and in particular Devin Booker.

[sunsbum]

Book looked petrified going against the Lakers defense and the Lakers knew it.

Psychologically, the Lakers own us right now and in particular Devin Booker.

Petrified? Interesting. I saw another sloppy performance by the suns, nothing really out of this world by the Lakers. The word is out that if you play physical with Book and KD they will get rattled so thats what teams seem to be doing. Again, 22 turnovers wins you 0 games.

[bwgood77]

Spoiler:

It's one game, on the road, against the Lakers (who yes, will always get beneficial calls at home...but something we just have to deal with)..I never freak out after 1 game, but do hope we bounce back to beat the Kings.

Book had a horrible game and we still almost won.

I couldn't see when exactly that timeout was called at the end. Was it a few seconds before Grayson picked it up? If it was called earlier when they were all fighting for it, by the time Grayson picked it up there probably wouldn't have been enough time left anyway.

But at best it goes into OT at that point but it would have had to have been a quick bucket.

And then we still got a great opportunity with KD taking an open 3, but of course it is an airball....and he had a good shooting night. I know Book has been terrible in elimination games, but going back to any non GS days, KD has been bad in close games that were close outs or games facing elimination. They had 3 chances against the Warriors that one year and I know Westbrook was the biggest factor, but KD was there too.

He will have big playoff games but sometimes in close ones, in the moment, when it comes down to the wire, he must get nervous or something. In GS they were all blowouts....both Book and KD are good in those when there isn't the pressure.

So I hope in the playoffs the games are not close or we never are facing an elimination game if we go far. I imagine we will at some point win an elimination game, but so many stars have won quite a few of them....Jokic and Denver were down 3-1 in the bubble to the Clips and came back...I think they were down 3-1 to Utah too that year so they won at least 3 but maybe 6 elimation games.

Most of the big stars have risen to that occasion to do it...even young ones like Luka, so hopefully we can get over that hurdle. Harden has the same problem...and he even does closing out series. Very glad we don't have him.

Even when you pause it at the time Bron calls time, it's clearly still loose (even if time is called the second his hands go together to request timeout).

Read on Twitter

Oh, I definitely thought the timeout should not have been awarded. I just wasn't sure where the ball was when it was called. So it appears it was called when Grayson was about to get it so he would have had like 5 seconds and could have put it up or gotten it to Book. There may have been more time on the clock. Horrible call there..not sure we would win in OT though. Book and KD had 5 fouls.

[SunsRback4Good]

Book looked petrified going against the Lakers defense and the Lakers knew it.

Psychologically, the Lakers own us right now and in particular Devin Booker.

Petrified? Interesting. I saw another sloppy performance by the suns, nothing really out of this world by the Lakers. The word is out that if you play physical with Book and KD they will get rattled so thats what teams seem to be doing. Again, 22 turnovers wins you 0 games.

Of course Booker was petrified he showed the same look throughout the game like a deer in the headlights does. Btw, this is the same guy who despised being double teamed in a meaningless scrimmage game. Also, doesn’t help when Booker & KD have no handles whatsoever so they will continue to get pushed around especially in playoffs causing stupid Turnovers which will cost us games. Hate Monty all you want, but at least he had a successful system unlike Vogel who continues to be oblivious on how to change a game play.

[garrick]

Book looked petrified going against the Lakers defense and the Lakers knew it.

Psychologically, the Lakers own us right now and in particular Devin Booker.

Petrified? Interesting. I saw another sloppy performance by the suns, nothing really out of this world by the Lakers. The word is out that if you play physical with Book and KD they will get rattled so thats what teams seem to be doing. Again, 22 turnovers wins you 0 games.

Of course Booker was petrified he showed the same look throughout the game like a deer in the headlights does. Btw, this is the same guy who despised being double teamed in a meaningless scrimmage game. Also, doesn’t help when Booker & KD have no handles whatsoever so they will continue to get pushed around especially in playoffs causing stupid Turnovers which will cost us games. Hate Monty all you want, but at least he had a successful system unlike Vogel who continues to be oblivious on how to change a game play.

That's why KD and Book aren't the powerhouse a lot of people are hyping it up to be.

KD especially after the 2021 season just hasn't been that guy in the clutch or elimination games that can carry a team to a win singlehandedly.

Both Book and KD get rattled by tough defense and aren't elite finishers around the basket so they can't get around their limitations in the same manner that a prime Harden could by drawing a lot of fouls off drives and getting to the line a lot. Both are turnover prone as well which isn't ideal when you don't have any true point guards to run plays.

[SunsRback4Good]

https://youtu.be/NHeyfgdFdV8?si=N4OItQpPQSrXPsqJ

Pretty embarrassing professional athletes can’t properly box out for a rebound. Five Suns players in the paint can’t grab a rebound over Lebron or three guys over AD. The Suns never seem to have physical players instead sign snowflakes to score instead of doing the dirty work. Besides PJ Tucker what enforcer have the Suns had on their roster in the past decade?

[garrick]

https://youtu.be/NHeyfgdFdV8?si=N4OItQpPQSrXPsqJ

Pretty embarrassing professional athletes can’t properly box out for a rebound. Five Suns players in the paint can’t grab a rebound over Lebron or three guys over AD. The Suns never seem to have physical players instead sign snowflakes to score instead of doing the dirty work. Besides PJ Tucker what enforcer have the Suns had on their roster in the past decade?

To be fair we are playing people out of position like EG should never have to guard LBJ or Wemby and we have players like Allen at times playing SF when he should be a pure SG and our forwards are way undersized to play the PF position full time with tweeners like Little, Yuta and KBD being 3&D small forwards who aren't really great at rebounding.

This has been JJ's MO though because he never found a true replacement for Jae instead opting to slide Cam Johnson as the starting PF and he traded away Dario for not even half a season for Bazley who was also a pretty slim forward although he had some decent athleticism.

[lilfishi22]

After seeing that video, and then seeing this response, where the ref says 'after video review'....
They were caught with their pants down. Amazing the lengths the NBA will go through to not admit an egregious error.
Again, we all know the suns put themselves in this spot, but c'mon now. I'm fine with them saying, the ref thought he had control. I get the game moves fast. But to flat out lie and say, 'upon video review, reaves had control, when he clearly did not', that's what is alarming to me.

Read on Twitter

The rule also says you can't use any part of a player's leg to intentionally move (ie kick away) or secure the ball. Tiven literally said pinning the ball to Reeves leg constitutes control

https://official.nba.com/rule-no-10-violations-and-penalties/#:~:text=A%20player%20shall%20not%20kick,fist%20is%20not%20a%20violation.

Section IV—Strike the Ball

A. A player shall not kick the ball or strike it with the fist.
B. Kicking the ball or striking it with any part of the leg is a violation when it is an intentional act. The ball accidentally striking the foot, the leg or fist is not a violation.
C. A player may not use any part of his leg to intentionally move or secure the ball.

PENALTY:
If the violation is by the offense, the ball is awarded to the opposing team on the sideline nearest the spot of the violation but no nearer to the baseline than the free throw line extended.
If the violation is by the defense while the ball is in play, the offensive team retains possession of the ball on the sideline nearest the spot of the violation but no nearer the baseline than the foul line extended.
If the violation occurs during a throw-in, the opposing team retains possession at the spot of the original throw-in with all privileges, if any,

But whatever

[lilfishi22]

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=2337952


Tough L but Vote for your Nashty!