ImageImageImage

Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT

Moderators: bwgood77, Qwigglez, lilfishi22

User avatar
grumpysaddle
RealGM
Posts: 20,682
And1: 14,017
Joined: Feb 22, 2009
Location: San Diego
   

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#181 » by grumpysaddle » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:42 am

Golanator wrote:
grumpysaddle wrote:Just finished watching. 1. I **** hate losing to the Mavs. 2. That was a bad loss knocking us down to the play-in. 3. Why did we go to the small lineup soooooo long. We got absolutely destroyed on the boards in the second half. The small lineup is good in spurts, but we needed Nurk in there. We won the first half with Nurk and then inexplicably went away from it for basically the entire second half.


Mavs started the 2nd half on a 15-0 run with Nurk in there.

Vogel had to try something different. But yeah probably went to it too long.

The bigger issue was Eubanks killing us again in his limited minutes in the 1st half. I would have liked to see Thad Young in his place.

Yeah, I'm not mad at trying something different there, but it happened too long. The Mavs just started that 3rd quarter super hot from 3.
Image
garrick
Head Coach
Posts: 6,374
And1: 3,099
Joined: Dec 02, 2006
     

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#182 » by garrick » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:43 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:Having/maintaining optimism as some still do on here is important and of course encouraging, as long as it doesn't cross over to overrationalizing and diluding themselves to unecessary losses that are critical in "tiebreaker" situations and seeding determinations. I for my part understand that this was just another game against a team playing really good basketball at the right time. And I also understand that the game was somewhat close up until the middle of the 4th. Lastly, I also understand that we didn't have Beal yet again and weren't at full strength.

BUT.................... Here's what else I and others who are rightfully frustrated and concerned understand too:

1- The suns STILL HAVE THE WORST 4TH QUARTER NET RATING in the entire league after 2/3 of the season.

2- We still aren't closing out key games that could imminently affect our seeding as well as any potential ability to exercise even a modicum of load management heading into the postseason.

3- This may have just been another close loss against a good team that's playing really well! BUT again, legit contenders close out key games and now that's just another western conference rival that has taken the season series from us and will own the "tiebreaker" when positions are determined.

4- People use coping mechanisms to delude the facts and rationalize our underwhelming losses. But, These losses aren't just a result of losing a close game to a "hot team playing great basketball at the right time". Our 4th quarter and the Mavs gaining the upper hand are representative of THE SAME LINGERING ISSUES that we had and apparently still haven't remedied going all the way back to the start of the season. We've given away far too many winnable games just by the virtue of lackluster effort, taking other teams for granted and thinking we'll just coast to a win! And then getting embarrassed. Consistently making the exact same basic mistakes that were prevalent issues at the start of the season too. How many legit championship teams or legit contenders do these things and casually give away games or series matchups?? And if we're not true championship contenders, then what was the trade really for???

5- Again........why did we MORTGAGE OUR FUTURE OVER THE NEXT DECADE ???? What was our fanbase sold on all summer post trades?? Was it to be a pretty good team that can win a bunch of games and maybe make the playoffs as a 1st or 2nd round exit? Or was it to be a LEGIT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. Injuries or not, We could still actually choose to ............ REBOUND, ROTATE AND DEFEND THE PERIMETER, NOT BE SO CARELESS WITH THE BALL, PUT FORTH SOMETHING BETTER THAN A HALF AZZ DISINTERESTED EFFORT!!!.

This game was lost not just because we struggled to score (yet again in the 4th). But moreoverby yet again being careless with the ball, going small against their bigger frontcourt players and losing possessions that resulted in 2nd chance points and threes. AND worst of all, our defense on the perimeter sagging off their shooters continually to double and triple Luka and then NOT PUTTING FORTH THE EFFORT to recover and challenge better on the perimeter, often passively standing there and daring them to shoot!

So it's not that the sky is falling at all but rather that people are really frustrated to see professional basketball players commit the same mistakes over and over again without any consistent improvement, then put out mediocre apathetic efforts when we we sold on this team being a LEGIT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER!! But contenders close out key games (especially with playoff seeding ranmnifications). All season we've been seeing the distimct difference from teams that ARE actually contenders playing to the level expected of them and not folding or giving away games. I'm not frustrated about them not winning the title this year, because I for my part know they're once again not legit contenders and will most likely get booted in the first or second round due to intentionally unaddressed positional depth issues, AND lack of size, athleticism, and physicality that is prevalent in the playoffs. I've excepted all of this already. However I do and will get upset or frustrated at experienced vet players and superstar level players making the same dumb mistakes over and over again all season, putting in poor effort in key moments in the games, and not figuring out even basic fundamentals of basketball after already 2/3 of the season have passed.

The sky isn't falling at all, but it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about this team being/playing like they're a full tier below actual contention considering all that was given up to sell the fanbase on them being LEGITIMATE CONTENDERS. They can be better, play better, and just need to decide to be that instead of what they're showing everyone. :wink:


The Mavs got a lot better because they got two athletic centers in Gafford and PJ Washington unlike us who continue to run out undersized guards/forwards like Okogie and Grayson who both play hard but are just often playing out of position.

Unfortunately as you stated we gave up too many assets for KD so we really didn't have the means to acquire the kind of athletic players that we so desperately need, maybe Young can help a bit but he's already 35 and shouldn't be expected to play major minutes at his age.

There's plenty to be worried about on this team & I just don't think we have what it takes to make it out of the West the way this roster is constructed.
sunsbg
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,112
And1: 4,127
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#183 » by sunsbg » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:50 am

Play in here we come. Doncic + Irving > Booker + Durant so Beal needs to play and make up for the difference. This team looks too old to expect them to give effort for 48 mins. Start of second half was a disaster.

Living on the edge of a cliff last few seasons with CP3 and now this old, injury prone team. At least CP3 team was fundamentally sound on both ends of the floor and generally more fun to watch.
Saberestar
RealGM
Posts: 19,955
And1: 14,939
Joined: May 21, 2010

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#184 » by Saberestar » Fri Feb 23, 2024 7:26 am

****, we played a good first half but the start of the 3rd was terrible.

You can not have minutes like that on the road against a good team, that put us in a tough position for the rest of the game.

We entered the 4th just five points down but we couldn't stop their offense.

Must win tomorrow against the Rockets.
User avatar
Puff
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,622
And1: 1,413
Joined: Jul 07, 2004
Location: Buckeye, Az
     

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#185 » by Puff » Fri Feb 23, 2024 8:21 am

Why was KD playing Point guard in the 4th quarter? I don't know how many times he brought the ball up court and just went one on one while throwing up bricks. I Know we were without Beal but that is all too frequent. We are not going to win any 4th quarters with this type of offense. In the first quarter and most of the 1st half the ball movement was excellent and everyone was involved. It was fun too watch and I expect fun for our players. Why the change in the 4th quarter?

It was nice to see my boy Saben lee get some minutes. He had 2 assists and 2 rebounds and was +10 in 6minutes. I get it that he is not perfect, but he should have played at the beginning of the 4th quarter to give point Book some rest. I really would like to see us sign Ish Smith. I really liked his time with us and always seems to make plays whenever I see him play.

Beal has only played in 30 of our 56 games. That has to improve in a big way. We have to fix our 4th quarter as well. Lot's are worried about us not making it past the 2nd round. Hell we may not even make it out of the play in and could knocked out of the playoffs without getting one 7 game series.
      "Good Luck Coach Bud" You are going to need it.:crazy:
User avatar
Ghost of Kleine
Master of Tweets
Posts: 12,466
And1: 6,731
Joined: Apr 13, 2012

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#186 » by Ghost of Kleine » Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:07 am

grumpysaddle wrote:Just finished watching. 1. I **** hate losing to the Mavs. 2. That was a bad loss knocking us down to the play-in. 3. Why did we go to the small lineup soooooo long. We got absolutely destroyed on the boards in the second half. The small lineup is good in spurts, but we needed Nurk in there. We won the first half with Nurk and then inexplicably went away from it for basically the entire second half.


Image

What he's saying. :nod:
Image
User avatar
Calvin Klein
RealGM
Posts: 14,236
And1: 8,080
Joined: May 20, 2008
Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina
Contact:
   

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#187 » by Calvin Klein » Fri Feb 23, 2024 11:27 am

Ghost of Kleine wrote:5- Again........why did we MORTGAGE OUR FUTURE OVER THE NEXT DECADE ???? What was our fanbase sold on all summer post trades?? Was it to be a pretty good team that can win a bunch of games and maybe make the playoffs as a 1st or 2nd round exit? Or was it to be a LEGIT CHAMPIONSHIP CONTENDER. Injuries or not, We could still actually choose to ............ REBOUND, ROTATE AND DEFEND THE PERIMETER, NOT BE SO CARELESS WITH THE BALL, PUT FORTH SOMETHING BETTER THAN A HALF AZZ DISINTERESTED EFFORT!!!.

This game was lost not just because we struggled to score (yet again in the 4th). But moreoverby yet again being careless with the ball, going small against their bigger frontcourt players and losing possessions that resulted in 2nd chance points and threes. AND worst of all, our defense on the perimeter sagging off their shooters continually to double and triple Luka and then NOT PUTTING FORTH THE EFFORT to recover and challenge better on the perimeter, often passively standing there and daring them to shoot!


The sky isn't falling at all, but it's perfectly reasonable to be upset about this team being/playing like they're a full tier below actual contention considering all that was given up to sell the fanbase on them being LEGITIMATE CONTENDERS. They can be better, play better, and just need to decide to be that instead of what they're showing everyone. :wink:



Basically what I've been saying since the start of the season.

And for the ones that say that we're good when we are healthy...guess what...that hardly ever happens.

It wasn't all bad in this game. They looked really good in the first half. There was even some ball movement!!!

And then....ISO ball all the way. No defense. Nobody to take care of the ball. Same old story. It's like the other teams don't worry about us because they know that they can step up the intensity on defense late in the game and the Suns will rely on ISO ball. Which will only work every now and then.
Hitachi77
Senior
Posts: 680
And1: 674
Joined: Apr 22, 2021

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#188 » by Hitachi77 » Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:01 pm

lilfishi22 wrote:
Hitachi77 wrote:Another fairly close road loss against a good/hot team, without Beal, and the board freaks out again. Road games against good teams are hard to win. It’s like some of you are just getting started with the NBA.

Okogie is basically unplayable in any decent leverage moments, but we already knew that.

Surging is the word you're looking for, off the back of Kyrie coming back from injury. They were on a 6 game win streak prior to this game. No excuse but just because Dallas were behind us on the standings, doesn't mean they are worse. If anything, we're basically in the same tier as them, Pels, and the Kings.

Also agree on Okogie. While I really like him as a player, appreciate his effort and energy and what he's able to do creating 2nd chance, the fact that teams barely even think about guarding him, turns the game into a 4 on 5. I think he's a fine depth piece during the regular season but it's really hard to play a guy who nobody guards especially on the perimeter, often kills offensive flow because he can't shoot the 3 when the ball goes to him and I don't think he can physically do enough on the defensive end to become a net positive. Like this season, he has a very very solid 1.0 DBPM but that's completely offset but a negative 1.6 OBPM.


Yeah not saying Dallas is worse or better than us. Just saying it doesn’t necessarily mean much to lose a fairly close game (always within striking distance) on the road against a very good team. The Clippers got beat down vs the Thunder and recently the Pelicans too. The Nuggets have also been losing games like this all year. It’s just hard to win road games against good teams period.

I don’t necessarily disagree with your tiers but I think they top 4 in the West aren’t much better than the next 4-6. It’s going to be a bloodbath in the west and anyone can lose any round.
Frank Lee
RealGM
Posts: 13,783
And1: 9,289
Joined: Nov 07, 2006

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#189 » by Frank Lee » Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:17 pm

I’ll say it for you Hitach… Dallas is better than us.
See, that wasn’t hard.
What ? Me Worry ?
Saberestar
RealGM
Posts: 19,955
And1: 14,939
Joined: May 21, 2010

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#190 » by Saberestar » Fri Feb 23, 2024 12:43 pm

Frank Lee wrote:I’ll say it for you Hitach… Dallas is better than us.
See, that wasn’t hard.

Dallas isn't better than us, they just won the match yesterday. We were on the road missing Beal and they were fully healthy (other than Exum).

Last year they weren't in the playoffs. Yeah, not even in the a Play-in.

33W-23L for both teams this season.

We are 1-2 against them so far this season. Just win the next one.
SunsRback4Good
RealGM
Posts: 29,341
And1: 11,635
Joined: May 13, 2011
     

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#191 » by SunsRback4Good » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:05 pm

Beal is not an x-factor coming from a losing team. SMH!
schnakenpopanz
General Manager
Posts: 8,420
And1: 2,659
Joined: Dec 05, 2008
Location: Germany
Contact:
 

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#192 » by schnakenpopanz » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:20 pm

I can only repeat. If you rely on health to be good, you gamble.
Availability is the reason why i never liked the Trades and not having more durable young players in the suqad.
There is a reaosn why OKC is looking good, Minnesota too.
free steve nash!
Frank Lee
RealGM
Posts: 13,783
And1: 9,289
Joined: Nov 07, 2006

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#193 » by Frank Lee » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:26 pm

Saberestar wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:I’ll say it for you Hitach… Dallas is better than us.
See, that wasn’t hard.

Dallas isn't better than us, they just won the match yesterday. We were on the road missing Beal and they were fully healthy (other than Exum).

Last year they weren't in the playoffs. Yeah, not even in the a Play-in.

33W-23L for both teams this season.

We are 1-2 against them so far this season. Just win the next one.


Ahh Saber, ever the optimist eh? I picture you jumping to your keyboard in your Suns jammies to defend the mighty purple and Orange as Steve Nash and Devon Booker posters adorn your wall. Am I close? Be honest. :wink: :P

Dallas isn’t the same team. They added two significant pieces, both of which could start on this team. We are 0-1 against them, and the matchups looked unfavorable. We can’t play big against them and we can’t play small against him. The only thing we can do is just hope book goes nuts… And that almost seems to be the prescription for our success going forward.

They may have had the best midseason dealings as any team. They will spank us in 7… much to Luka’s delight. At least this has become a feisty rivalry. They bounce us again though, it could get ugly.


PS.. Brittle Brad is a non factor. Is he that much better than Gordon? Truly.
What ? Me Worry ?
sunsbg
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,112
And1: 4,127
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#194 » by sunsbg » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:40 pm

Puff wrote:Why was KD playing Point guard in the 4th quarter?


This was painful to watch. KD dribble dribble, pass to Okogie, TO. :banghead: Such a low IQ team. Beal should help to some degree, but he's an ISO minded player too so not that much.

Mavs are overrated now. They improved but a good team + good coach like Pop for example will probably expose their ISO heliocentric offense easily.
Fo-Real
General Manager
Posts: 8,936
And1: 4,930
Joined: Mar 21, 2009
     

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#195 » by Fo-Real » Fri Feb 23, 2024 1:49 pm

We need a better emergency Pg than Saben Lee. It was ball movement and team ofense that had us up in the 1st half and got us back into the game in the 3rd quarter. Towards the end of the 3rd and most of the 4th, it turned into Booker or Durant walk the ball up, probe, shot clock runs down to almost nothing and either one of them take a contested shot or pass off the hot potato for someone else to throw up a stressed shot clock brick. We need an actual pg at times like this to force tempo and create movement for us and thus them!
Frank Lee
RealGM
Posts: 13,783
And1: 9,289
Joined: Nov 07, 2006

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#196 » by Frank Lee » Fri Feb 23, 2024 2:49 pm

sunsbg wrote:
Puff wrote:Why was KD playing Point guard in the 4th quarter?


This was painful to watch. KD dribble dribble, pass to Okogie, TO. :banghead: Such a low IQ team. Beal should help to some degree, but he's an ISO minded player too so not that much.

Mavs are overrated now. They improved but a good team + good coach like Pop for example will probably expose their ISO heliocentric offense easily.



Who is more overrated… us or them?
Vegas has us at +850 to win the west, tied with OKC
Dallas sits at +1400


And a good coach isnt needed to expose us.

It will take a Herculean effort by Book for us to make any noise come playoff time.
What ? Me Worry ?
sunsbg
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,112
And1: 4,127
Joined: Feb 29, 2016

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#197 » by sunsbg » Fri Feb 23, 2024 3:28 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
sunsbg wrote:
This was painful to watch. KD dribble dribble, pass to Okogie, TO. :banghead: Such a low IQ team. Beal should help to some degree, but he's an ISO minded player too so not that much.

Mavs are overrated now. They improved but a good team + good coach like Pop for example will probably expose their ISO heliocentric offense easily.



Who is more overrated… us or them?
Vegas has us at +850 to win the west, tied with OKC
Dallas sits at +1400


And a good coach isnt needed to expose us.

It will take a Herculean effort by Book for us to make any noise come playoff time.


To be fair both teams are heavily dependent on their stars and don't play some great brand of basketball. If the stars are hot then both teams are pretty good. Kyrie is a bit unpredictable and injury prone too, so we'll see where this duo leads the Mavs. I liked their odds (x34) after the deadline trades and put some money. Now they are x26 while we have dropped to x15 with 5th best odds according to the bookies.
User avatar
RaisingArizona
RealGM
Posts: 15,301
And1: 7,210
Joined: Apr 23, 2009
 

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#198 » by RaisingArizona » Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:05 pm

The season unfortunately comes down to Beal playing consistently.
Image
Saberestar
RealGM
Posts: 19,955
And1: 14,939
Joined: May 21, 2010

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#199 » by Saberestar » Fri Feb 23, 2024 4:14 pm

Frank Lee wrote:
Saberestar wrote:
Frank Lee wrote:I’ll say it for you Hitach… Dallas is better than us.
See, that wasn’t hard.

Dallas isn't better than us, they just won the match yesterday. We were on the road missing Beal and they were fully healthy (other than Exum).

Last year they weren't in the playoffs. Yeah, not even in the a Play-in.

33W-23L for both teams this season.

We are 1-2 against them so far this season. Just win the next one.


Ahh Saber, ever the optimist eh? I picture you jumping to your keyboard in your Suns jammies to defend the mighty purple and Orange as Steve Nash and Devon Booker posters adorn your wall. Am I close? Be honest. :wink: :P

Dallas isn’t the same team. They added two significant pieces, both of which could start on this team. We are 0-1 against them, and the matchups looked unfavorable. We can’t play big against them and we can’t play small against him. The only thing we can do is just hope book goes nuts… And that almost seems to be the prescription for our success going forward.

They may have had the best midseason dealings as any team. They will spank us in 7… much to Luka’s delight. At least this has become a feisty rivalry. They bounce us again though, it could get ugly.


PS.. Brittle Brad is a non factor. Is he that much better than Gordon? Truly.

Lol, sadly my room isn't like that but I would love to have a few more jerseys... but even swingman are too expensive for my taste.

Well, the Mavs have made a couple of trades and I really like Gafford's fit but there is not need to overrate them just because they are not on the Suns.

They lost Grant Williams (who arguably is as good as any of those two guys) Seth Curry and a FRP for PJ Washington so it's not like that they got him for free.

Gafford's trade was better for the Mavs but at the end of the day we are talking about a role player.

We have added Royce O'Neale and Thad Young who BTW just arrived two days ago. Our team is "new" too and Young hasn't even debuted yet so you can say that our record is 0-0 for the next game.

And you are fooling yourself saying "Brad Beal is non a factor". He is huge factor. It's a fact, every raw stat or advanced stat confirms it.
Maze
Bench Warmer
Posts: 1,413
And1: 966
Joined: Jan 20, 2018

Re: Game 56: Phoenix Suns (33-22) @ Dallas Mavericks (32-23) l Thursday l 5:30pm l TNT 

Post#200 » by Maze » Fri Feb 23, 2024 5:01 pm

It takes a year or two to build chemistry when you have a bunch of new pieces.I'm at the point where I'm willing to give them a pass this season.I'll wait until next year post All Star break before I really get sick.

Return to Phoenix Suns