The Official 2024 Offseason Thread

[SunsRback4Good]

Yeah Ishbia likes to burn money.

EVERYTHING BURNS KENNY! EVERYTHING BURNS!

also, you gotta know when to hold em and when to fold em.

[grumpysaddle]

Mrs. Ganush says Matt Ishbia shames her with the way he's crippled our team financially and moving forward.

Glad someone knows where my banner is from! <3

It's definitely fitting man!
As Ishbia and Jones are managing to drag this franchise to Hell in record time with their incredibly impetuous and shortsighted moves. Although I do sometimes also miss seeing your Steve Brule avatar as it reminds me of our unfortunate luck in seemingly always cycling through owners with similar intellectual brilliance and ingenuity!....lol

Did we just become best friends?

[sunsbg]

What happens when Ishbia realizes he's not allowed to build a superteam by just burning money and all the assets he was gifted are not available anymore ?

[SunsRback4Good]

Glad someone knows where my banner is from! <3

It's definitely fitting man!
As Ishbia and Jones are managing to drag this franchise to Hell in record time with their incredibly impetuous and shortsighted moves. Although I do sometimes also miss seeing your Steve Brule avatar as it reminds me of our unfortunate luck in seemingly always cycling through owners with similar intellectual brilliance and ingenuity!....lol

Did we just become best friends?

I heard GOK has over 10k friends on Facebook.

[Son of Ra]

I just think the f draft picks thing is so weird when you:

- wanna build around Booker - a Suns draft pick
- only got KD because you had two promising young players - both Suns draft picks
- had the easy, generational chance to get Doncic - via Suns draft pick

I'm not even gonna mention all the missed, easy consensus picks in Halliburton etc and all the other what if things (I consider/included the Ayton/Doncic pick in the hard facts things).

[Puff]

I have a hard time understanding the love in the NBA and media around Ty Lue.

He has accomplished nothing in Los Angeles and once Lebron left him in Cleveland he was fired. He has been blessed with possibly the most talented roster in the NBA while getting beat every year in the early rounds while coaching the Clippers. I hope he stays in LA.

If we do fire Vogel, I hope he is not replaced by another coach off the scrap heap. I hope it is a young assistant from a successful franchise.

[KLEON]

Watch Ishbia and JJ go after Westbrick in the offseason

[bwgood77]

I love how Ish brags about having 5 picks in 8 years. You literally couldn't have any fewer picks due to the stepien rule. Then he talks about trading 2 of them as soon as he's able. Then we will have 3 picks (double swapped to the end of rounds) in the next 8 years. I wonder if he will brag about that too.

Presti probably reads his quotes and gets a good belly laugh.

[Qwigglez]

Why hasn't Vogel been fired yet? We aren't seriously considering bringing him back, are we? I don't think Vogel is capable of coaching this team with 3 stars when none of the three are vocal leaders on the court.

[Revived]

Read on Twitter

So many teams are adding quality depth via the draft nowadays, this just seems extremely shortsighted.

And what do the Suns lack, depth or star power? I guess according to Ishbia and Jones, it’s more old ass washed up stars on big contracts.

I see another 2011-2020 streak within a couple of years. It will be exactly like the post Amare years. For two years we will hover around the 8th/9th spot, and then fall into oblivion for 8 years, with maybe one surprise season in there to give us false hope, and probably trade even more picks.

Yup. Sad thing this time is that due to the honeymoon phase, so many fans are buying into BS that Ishbia is selling them just because he’s willing to spend $$.

Spending $$ alone has never made anyone a good owner. Hiring the right people and staying tf out of the way while they do their job is what makes a great owner.

[Revived]

I love how Ish brags about having 5 picks in 8 years. You literally couldn't have any fewer picks due to the stepien rule. Then he talks about trading 2 of them as soon as he's able. Then we will have 3 picks (double swapped to the end of rounds) in the next 8 years. I wonder if he will brag about that too.

Presti probably reads his quotes and gets a good belly laugh.

If the Stephen rule didn’t exist, I bet he would trade those 5 picks asap to get some other 33+ yr old that’s making $50 million.

[Revived]

Read on Twitter

Don’t really care much for Draymond at all usually but there’s no a word he says here that isn’t true. Quite a few media folks have blasted this idiotic comment from James Jones too.

Sad thing is if you watched the press conference, you can tell James Jones actually believes what he said. It wasn’t PR bluff to try and calm down fans.

He literally thinks KD is a 22 yr old 3 year player that’s still developing.

What a joke this team front office is from top to bottom.James Jones wouldn’t even be qualified to be a scout on any other team yet he’s the GM here.

[Puff]

I love how Ish brags about having 5 picks in 8 years. You literally couldn't have any fewer picks due to the stepien rule. Then he talks about trading 2 of them as soon as he's able. Then we will have 3 picks (double swapped to the end of rounds) in the next 8 years. I wonder if he will brag about that too.

Presti probably reads his quotes and gets a good belly laugh.

As you and others have mentioned the draft is the one place to find a low-priced gem to add to your team.

The great James Jones and Ish seem to think they are going to find someone this summer for the minimum that will help this franchise. It also was mentioned by gambo a couple of weeks ago that O'Neale will be getting a 4 or 5 yr package at 13-14 Mil per year. Wow. I am not impressed with this guy but it probably is the only way to create tradeable assets going forward for this management team.

This team needs another athletic big that can rebound and play defense more than any other position. That is why trading KD for any package that does not include a legit big is just plain stupid.

The only player in the big 3 I would trade is Beal and a bag of popcorn in return would suffice.

[bwgood77]

Read on Twitter

Don’t really care much for Draymond at all usually but there’s no a word he says here that isn’t true. Quite a few media folks have blasted this idiotic comment from James Jones too.

Sad thing is if you watched the press conference, you can tell James Jones actually believes what he said. It wasn’t PR bluff to try and calm down fans.

He literally thinks KD is a 22 yr old 3 year player that’s still developing.

What a joke this team front office is from top to bottom.James Jones wouldn’t even be qualified to be a scout on any other team yet he’s the GM here.

It's an especially weird thing to say when KD didn't even like his role in the offense.

[Qwigglez]

I love how Ish brags about having 5 picks in 8 years. You literally couldn't have any fewer picks due to the stepien rule. Then he talks about trading 2 of them as soon as he's able. Then we will have 3 picks (double swapped to the end of rounds) in the next 8 years. I wonder if he will brag about that too.

Presti probably reads his quotes and gets a good belly laugh.

As you and others have mentioned the draft is the one place to find a low-priced gem to add to your team.

The great James Jones and Ish seem to think they are going to find someone this summer for the minimum that will help this franchise. It also was mentioned by gambo a couple of weeks ago that O'Neale will be getting a 4 or 5 yr package at 13-14 Mil per year. Wow. I am not impressed with this guy but it probably is the only way to create tradeable assets going forward for this management team.

This team needs another athletic big that can rebound and play defense more than any other position. That is why trading KD for any package that does not include a legit big is just plain stupid.

The only player in the big 3 I would trade is Beal and a bag of popcorn in return would suffice.

I don't mind keeping O'Neal, as you mentioned it's a way to create tradeable assets going forward. I don't like trading draft picks / players on rookie contracts as they can easily be an asset for the team, or even a tradeable asset.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Read on Twitter

I find it funny that Gerald Bourget talks about supposedly setting the record straight on our draft pick situation as a media source, yet he deliberately puts out an article without ever mentioning the attached penalties of those picks swaps as a 2nd apron team making those pick swaps become the very last pick (#30) in corresponding drafts starting next summer. And then he does the same exact thing in this podcast, purposely omitting the details of those very few remaining picks left for now. Is it worse to lack journalistic integrity or the testicular fortitude to actually challenge false narratives, or is he simply letting his random instances of misplaced feelings of intellectual superiority cloud the facts of our situation? Or could it be just a matter of subjective biases?

I get that simplistically both Ishbia and Bourget are technically correct that contextually, we do have picks left in those alternating years. But for both to intentionally and cleverly mislead the representative minimal value ranges of those remaining picks as if they're actual quality assets is disappointing and ultimately disingenuous to the premise of the fan's concerns.

Aside from that point though, This podcast is a perfect example of everything that so many people on here have been saying is fundamentally wrong with James Jones regarding the draft. And his own direct comments parroting Ishbias' pompous and condescending response about not caring about the future with some 7th grader is yet another admission by Jones that he simply doesn't care about the draft, and even worse, his body of work and glaring lack of success only furthers this argument for all the elite talent he's overlooked. And a substantial reason as to why he shouldn't hold any front-office position in the NBA!

Calm down there turbo...perhaps he didnt say that the swaps dont move to the end of the first round because its not true? They wont be incurring penalties on picks that were already traded. They will be unable to trade their '32 1st if they remain over the 2nd apron by the end of the upcoming season. That will be the first time 2nd apron draft pick penalties are enforced. The swap rights for picks before that are still dependent on the records of the teams involved. It'll be the worst of the 3 picks...but wouldnt be 30th unless one of the 3 teams has the best record in the league.

First off, How'd you know my nickname man? J/k.....lol But I believe we're going to disagree on a few points here:

perhaps he didnt say that the swaps dont move to the end of the first round because its not true?

But it is absolutely true, all you have to do is look at the 2nd apron penalties for NBA teams man!
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/nba-second-apron-explained-salary-cap-team-spending/efo6htjzzmzrswoncvvlbmhi

All of the penalties for the first apron apply to the second apron as well, which is triggered when a team's salary exceeds $182.5 million. For the 2023-24 season, one additional penalty is added when crossing the second apron:

- No access to the $5 million taxpayer midlevel exception
-Starting at the end of the 2023-24 season, even more restrictions will be added to the second apron. These include:

-Teams cannot use a trade exception generated by aggregating the salaries of multiple players
-Teams cannot include cash in a trade
-Teams cannot use a trade exception generated in a prior year
-First-round picks seven years out are frozen (unable to be traded)
- A team's first-round pick is moved to the end of the first round if they remain in the second apron for three out of five seasons

https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHO.html
So when looking at our next three seasons, this last season, as well as the next two, we're well over the 2nd apron $182 million tax line. And my point of discussion is again the picks swaps here that begin in 2026 for us because picks 2025, 2027, and 2029 are already traded away to Brooklyn. But again, I'm talking about our pick swaps which begin for us in 2026 and going forward in alternating years going forward to 2030. So during that time, unless we drastically reduce our payroll and break up our "big three" which is highly unlikely given Ishbias' "All in" every year statement, we'll continue operating over the 2nd apron. And that's the basis of determination for our teams' pick being moved to the last pick (#30) of the first round per multiple articles and the updated CBA info itself.

They won't be incurring penalties on picks that were already traded.

Again, per my posts, we're talking about the pick swaps that still have yet to begin in 2026, not the picks that we've already traded to Brooklyn. I'll concede that I misstated the part about the swaps beginning in 2025 when they actually begin in 2026. But that honestly changes nothing about the facts that our pick swaps beginning in 2026, and going forward (up to 2030) as long as we maintain our 2nd apron payroll, which again is very likely given Ishbias' "ALL IN EVERY YEAR" statements will be penalized as a 2nd apron team and our pick will be moved to the last pick of the first round or pick #30.

They will be unable to trade their '32 1st if they remain over the 2nd apron by the end of the upcoming season.

I don't at all disagree with you on this point, And I even mention this same point in a different post response to Garricks' post reply too. But again, where discussing the draft details for the corresponding pick swaps for alternating years, because the picks from the BRK KD trade are already traded and irrelevant to my points in my post as Brooklyn owns those picks. Which again is why I reference the picks swaps in my post because that's what BOTH Ishbia and Gerald Bourget are referencing themselves as us still having draft assets going forward. At no point have I claimed that we don't either! My argument has always been the omitted details surrounding those swaps as stated in my post.

But I do disagree with you that 2032 will be the first time those penalties are enforced! Again, clearly, per the above-referenced article, and even the updated information of the CBA itself, it states that for any team which exceeds the 2nd apron threshold of $182,5 million in (which we already clearly have at $190+ million going forward)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/PHO.html
and will obviously continue to do so if you believe Ishbias' "ALL IN EVERY YEAR" statements from his press conference. And as a 2nd apron team operating well above the $182 threshold and even further above it once Allens' new deal is added, we resign O'neale, Likely extend KD for around 60 million or more per annum, and then fill out our roster, short of Ishbia abruptly changing course, we'll very obviously maintain our 2nd apron status. Meaning, that this next season will be our 2nd year in it and again, our pick swaps which begin in 2026 will trigger that 2nd apron penalty which will stay in effect until we obviously drop back below that threshold. So we'll absolutely incur those penalties well before 2032 beginning in 2026 when our pick swaps begin. Yes, I'll concede that I had the first pick swap wrong stating it as 2025, my bad! I apologize for that mistake. However, that misstatement doesn't at all change the facts or basis of my argument referencing the alternating pick swaps. It still is what it is per the information referenced above.

The swap rights for picks before that are still dependent on the records of the teams involved. It'll be the worst of the 3 picks...but wouldn't be 30th unless one of the 3 teams has the best record in the league.

Again, I agree with you that the swap rights are determined by individual team records involved in the swaps, that's not a point of contention that I'm arguing here. I also agree that the pick we receive will be the worst of the 3 as mentioned in various articles:

https://arizonasports.com/story/3546524/nba-draft-order-finalized-suns-pick-no-22-overall-after-tiebreakers/#:~:text=The%20Suns%20do%20not%20own,the%20Durant%20and%20Beal%20deals.

The Suns do not own a 2025, 2027, or 2029 first-rounder after the Kevin Durant trade, while in 2026, 2028, and 2030 they get the least favorable pick via swaps from the Durant and Beal deals.

But our pick absolutely would be #30 BECAUSE again, the corresponding 2nd apron penalties are based upon that team's 2nd apron salary status as we are clearly in that tier and will be going forward. And the penalties that move that pick to the last pick of the first round (pick #30) really have nothing to do with a team's competitive record because it's based on overall salary commitment under the new CBA. Now if your corresponding argument is that we'd somehow get a better pick in the swap between the three teams, per the conditions of the swaps, we'd get the "least favorable of" the three picks, and under those conditions IF we weren't already a 2nd apron team, then those penalties wouldn't apply, and we might have a chance to get a slightly better pick than 30 IF both of those other two teams didn't fall in that specific range. But again, WE ARE a 2nd apron team, and aside from maybe the pick in 2025 (which we don't own anyways), 2026 and the rest of our 5 pick swaps would fall under those penalties and thusly be moved to the last (30th) pick for that round. The whole 3 team conditions that apply to those pick swaps are ultimately completely separate from our apron penalties which would still supersede any outlier outcomes for us landing a least favorable pick from one of those other two teams even if those other two teams finished above the 30th pick range. Because once the least favorable range is determined, and we obtain that pick range, it's still immediately moved to the last pick of that round per the CBA penalties.

So I do kind of get your suggested argument! But my understanding is still that whatever pick outcome of the swaps we ultimately receive because our 2nd apron threshold has been/is exceeded, we'll still trigger those corresponding penalties listed above. So even if we somehow finished worse than those other two teams in Washington or Memphis, which is highly unlikely (maybe a very slight outlier chance with Memphis) we'd still take possession of said pick and then that pick (under our acquisition would still trigger the penalties once it's determined to become ours (as long as we still fall under the conditions of those 2nd apron penalties.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Why hasn't Vogel been fired yet? We aren't seriously considering bringing him back, are we? I don't think Vogel is capable of coaching this team with 3 stars when none of the three are vocal leaders on the court.

We actually are likely considering keeping Vogel primarily because Ishbia and Jones just aren't capable of any creative contingency plans, and really only focused heavily on Lue as their coveted option. And with the recent reports of Lue likely receiving a lucrative extension, If that takes him off the board for us, then the suns very likely won't care enough to actually put in the time and legwork to source out other options! Definitely, Jones won't as he typically does the bare minimum on his job duties if he does anything of merit. So with not having a formulated or extensive list of desirable options, they'll likely just bring back Vogel for one more year citing continuity and chemistryas a reason, and then reassess next summer.

[Qwigglez]

Would the Toronto Raptors be open to a Nurkic & Little for Jakob Poeltl deal? Poeltl is more agile than Nurkic, much more versatile defensively, and has a higher motor. His offense is severely limited compared to Nurkic, but he can dunk and has higher %'s than Nurk.

As far as free agents go, I'd see if Mo Bamba would be open to a backup center role, Kris Dunn as a backup PG. I would consider Dario Saric as well as I feel the Suns need high IQ players off the bench. Aaron Holiday and even Justin Holiday as backup guards are options I'd consider too.

I also wouldn't be opposed to going after some younger players to fill out the bench like Max Christie (22), Kenyon Martin Jr didn't get the opportunity I felt he wanted last year with the Sixers. Jaxson Hayes I believe could be looking for a better opportunity instead of being behind Anthony Davis. Guys who may still have some upside, who are still developing, and that could still provide some depth. I'd actually prefer that over going after players who are 30 years old + to fill out the bench.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Glad someone knows where my banner is from! <3

It's definitely fitting man!
As Ishbia and Jones are managing to drag this franchise to Hell in record time with their incredibly impetuous and shortsighted moves. Although I do sometimes also miss seeing your Steve Brule avatar as it reminds me of our unfortunate luck in seemingly always cycling through owners with similar intellectual brilliance and ingenuity!....lol

Did we just become best friends?

lol

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/phoenix-suns-explore-trading-draft-pick-should-they

Suns Will Explore Trading Draft Pick - But Should They?

The Phoenix Suns have quite a decision to make in the coming weeks when it comes to the NBA Draft
KEVIN HICKS
4 HOURS AGO


PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns and key decision makers such as franchise governor Mat Ishbia will have massive decision after massive decision ahead of them this offseason.

One of the biggest will be what to do with the 22nd pick in the 2024 NBA Draft - which is set to be held weeks from now beginning on June 26. While this is considered a "weaker" draft class compared to others on the basis of star power, there are a relatively large number of experienced college athletes that could contribute to contending teams both now and well into the future. A big reason why Phoenix may decide to opt against sticking-and-picking?

It simply could have to do with the mindset the management has as a whole.

The draft hasn't been a point of emphasis for Phoenix since the 2019 - even then, James Jones opted to take a more experienced player (Cameron Johnson) compared to taking on a project. This process can be a double-edged sword, however, as Phoenix has missed out on many quality players over the years with this approach - such as Ayo Dosunmu/Herbert Jones in 2021, Andrew Nembhard/Jaylin Williams in 2022, and Marcus Sasser in 2023.

Some of those moves were necessary (traded the 2022 & 23 picks for Chris Paul/Kevin Durant), but the 2021 pick was moved in an effort to get an "NBA-ready" player in Landry Shamet.

Suns fans know how that endeavor turned out in the end. Moral of the story? The Suns shouldn't always be rushing to find ways to replace controllable, malleable prospects with players who are perceived to be more experienced and "ready to play winning basketball."

If the Suns were actually committed to evaluating the draft, they could have left 2021 with a player such as Jones or Dosunmu. Note: both are expected to receive lucrative extensions this summer with the New Orleans Pelicans and Chicago Bulls, respectively.

It's just food for thought. Perhaps Tyler Kolek or DaRon Holmes would be the player that Phoenix needs to cure the short-term depth concerns and long-term sustainability concerns in one shot.

This article mentions two names specifically in Kolek and DaRon Holmes that are both experienced and productive young players with versatile abilities! As well as other examples of proven playoff contributors they (specifically Jones) unsurprisingly passed on that have been offering solid production and impact to their teams while also being affordable cost-controlled options that could've been or even those that still could be very beneficial to a team in our situation.