The Official 2024 Offseason Thread

[Ghost of Kleine]

But it doesn't create cap space, and Beal is definitely the superior player who is actually far more healthy.

Not by itself of course as there'd need to be some follow-up trades if that was the only singular goal. But what it could do that so many people here seem to be willfully ignoring is..................................

1- As a 40 million expiring, it could actually provide us with options that we currently just don't have with Beal as is. Again, right now we really have no options to make roster adjustments because thanks to our front office being completely delusional, going to the extreme, and giving away all of our assets and space, etc. we're completely stuck in a hopeless situation outside of maybe trading one of KD, Booker, or convincing Beal to agree to a trade anyways!

- It could provide us an out from Beal's 50+ million salary and even though (by itself) it obviously wouldn't get us cap space, it would clearly give us a springboard towards getting under the 2nd apron and start creating avenues to actually make adjustments that we're currently prohibited from.

- It'd give us a 40 million expiring that we could flip elsewhere to another tax team that is seeking cap reduction or tax relief in exchange for actual better depth pieces than we constantly field from the vet min options.

- IF he was able/willing to play (in a very implied role) absent of significant pressure, He'd give us a 6'11 mobile jumbo wing forward with size that actually has defensive acumen, ballhandling ability, and playmaking ability. All of these things are obviously things that our team is sorely missing anyways. We don't really need more offensive weapons anyways, and in removing that offensive pressure from the equation with Simmons, it might allow him to feel comfortable and focus on defense, ballhandling, and playmaking, while also not needing, wanting, or dominating the ball when it's clearly much better in Booker and Durants' hands anyways. I'm talking about placing him in a very simplified role that accentuates his natural abilities that he's already proven to excel at previously in his career.

I really can't understand how people keep overlooking the value in these considerations when currently as is, our team has none of these options and clearly isn't a legitimate contender anyways. And honestly, If people just can't stomach the idea of these possibilities under that condition, we can again easily just flip Simmons expiring to some team that is seeking significant cap relief or tax reduction for multiple depth pieces obviously better than what our vet min retread options would provide.

Seems like people continue to view expirings as some sort of good thing or valuable asset. Usually what you can get for an expiring is a player on that a team doesn't want because they are not on a good contract (eg, Beal). He WAS that player we got for an expiring. We won't likely find anything nearly as good.

As far as bad contract, cap relief, second apron, etc....it's not my money so I am not concerned like some about saving Ishbia money. The only year his contract will matter and hurt us bad is the year after KD expires, IF we don't re-sign KD, but knowing Ishbia, he will re-sign KD to a 4 year contract when he's 38. Or, when Beal is an expiring, maybe we can flip him for another bad contract people will complain about.

Well, with the new CBA being so restrictive and penalizing, I'd like to believe it could still be viewed as somewhat valuable to teams that like us either went all in only to come up short and want to make changes to their rosters' soon, but don't have cap flexibility to make moves either, OR maybe some teams that have one or more (possibly multiple players on multi-year deals that they'd now like to move on from possibly. Or maybe a team just wants to bottom out knowing that the 25' draft is pretty loaded with high-end talent and star potential, and obviously, Simmons could be swapped for players to become that team's tank commander just sitting out the season until he expires?


There could be numerous reasons that a team could have possible interest in a $40 million expiring like Simmons. For example, maybe some contenders have just realized that despite signing a bunch of players to multi-year deals, they're still not legit contenders (too bad our front office can't comprehend this)! And now they might be looking to get off some of their longer deals. Names like Andrew Wiggins, Draymond Green, Terry Rozier, and Khris Middleton. Would Atlanta maybe want to get off a couple of their long-term deals? Would Portland like to move off any long-term deals so they can bottom out? Is Utah still looking to move off of Collins? As we head into next season, I think there could be a number of teams looking to change course or make moves in some fashion.

Overall, I'm not averse to keeping Beal, as I do like the energy and tenacity he brings and would much rather trade KD and use those assets to strengthen our depth whilst also getting assets back as well and maybe move forward with a backcourt of Beal and Booker while adding some dominant, ATHLETIC and PHYSICAL frontcourt presence for BOTH to play off of with more of a pick your poison that isn't mostly redundant. That's why I was partial to a KD to New York for Randle/ Bojan/ picks or KD for Randle/Mitchell/ Mcbride/ Sims/ picks type of deal, because Randle and Nurkic together in the frontcourt would give us two big burly, physical tough and gritty frontcourt bigs that are great rebounders, highly productive, and BOTH can pass well and help initiate offense, which would take some playmaking pressure off of Booker and Beal in the backcourt. And then they could focus more successfully on scoring. Beal on his downhill drives to the hoop, with some passing thrown in, and Booker back at shooting guard knocking down big shots! Really, we'd just need to shore up our wing defense with a jumbo defensive wing, and our backup center slot and we'd be good.

[sunskerr]

But it doesn't create cap space, and Beal is definitely the superior player who is actually far more healthy.

Not by itself of course as there'd need to be some follow-up trades if that was the only singular goal. But what it could do that so many people here seem to be willfully ignoring is..................................

1- As a 40 million expiring, it could actually provide us with options that we currently just don't have with Beal as is. Again, right now we really have no options to make roster adjustments because thanks to our front office being completely delusional, going to the extreme, and giving away all of our assets and space, etc. we're completely stuck in a hopeless situation outside of maybe trading one of KD, Booker, or convincing Beal to agree to a trade anyways!

- It could provide us an out from Beal's 50+ million salary and even though (by itself) it obviously wouldn't get us cap space, it would clearly give us a springboard towards getting under the 2nd apron and start creating avenues to actually make adjustments that we're currently prohibited from.

- It'd give us a 40 million expiring that we could flip elsewhere to another tax team that is seeking cap reduction or tax relief in exchange for actual better depth pieces than we constantly field from the vet min options.

- IF he was able/willing to play (in a very implied role) absent of significant pressure, He'd give us a 6'11 mobile jumbo wing forward with size that actually has defensive acumen, ballhandling ability, and playmaking ability. All of these things are obviously things that our team is sorely missing anyways. We don't really need more offensive weapons anyways, and in removing that offensive pressure from the equation with Simmons, it might allow him to feel comfortable and focus on defense, ballhandling, and playmaking, while also not needing, wanting, or dominating the ball when it's clearly much better in Booker and Durants' hands anyways. I'm talking about placing him in a very simplified role that accentuates his natural abilities that he's already proven to excel at previously in his career.

I really can't understand how people keep overlooking the value in these considerations when currently as is, our team has none of these options and clearly isn't a legitimate contender anyways. And honestly, If people just can't stomach the idea of these possibilities under that condition, we can again easily just flip Simmons expiring to some team that is seeking significant cap relief or tax reduction for multiple depth pieces obviously better than what our vet min retread options would provide.

Seems like people continue to view expirings as some sort of good thing or valuable asset. Usually what you can get for an expiring is a player on that a team doesn't want because they are not on a good contract (eg, Beal). He WAS that player we got for an expiring. We won't likely find anything nearly as good.

As far as bad contract, cap relief, second apron, etc....it's not my money so I am not concerned like some about saving Ishbia money. The only year his contract will matter and hurt us bad is the year after KD expires, IF we don't re-sign KD, but knowing Ishbia, he will re-sign KD to a 4 year contract when he's 38. Or, when Beal is an expiring, maybe we can flip him for another bad contract people will complain about.

Contracts do not occur in a vacuum. They are relative. So Ben Simmons expiring is better than Beal if we take this last season at face value.

I have no expectations for this team next year by the way. No problem running it back until the all star break with a new coach but if we stink by December/January we will know for sure we just suck. Right now I'm like 90% sure we suck, so obviously Ben's contract is worth more.

But yeah, if we turn it around then Beals contract was better (for us and us only), but that's not something we can really predict with any certainty.

[bwgood77]

Not by itself of course as there'd need to be some follow-up trades if that was the only singular goal. But what it could do that so many people here seem to be willfully ignoring is..................................

1- As a 40 million expiring, it could actually provide us with options that we currently just don't have with Beal as is. Again, right now we really have no options to make roster adjustments because thanks to our front office being completely delusional, going to the extreme, and giving away all of our assets and space, etc. we're completely stuck in a hopeless situation outside of maybe trading one of KD, Booker, or convincing Beal to agree to a trade anyways!

- It could provide us an out from Beal's 50+ million salary and even though (by itself) it obviously wouldn't get us cap space, it would clearly give us a springboard towards getting under the 2nd apron and start creating avenues to actually make adjustments that we're currently prohibited from.

- It'd give us a 40 million expiring that we could flip elsewhere to another tax team that is seeking cap reduction or tax relief in exchange for actual better depth pieces than we constantly field from the vet min options.

- IF he was able/willing to play (in a very implied role) absent of significant pressure, He'd give us a 6'11 mobile jumbo wing forward with size that actually has defensive acumen, ballhandling ability, and playmaking ability. All of these things are obviously things that our team is sorely missing anyways. We don't really need more offensive weapons anyways, and in removing that offensive pressure from the equation with Simmons, it might allow him to feel comfortable and focus on defense, ballhandling, and playmaking, while also not needing, wanting, or dominating the ball when it's clearly much better in Booker and Durants' hands anyways. I'm talking about placing him in a very simplified role that accentuates his natural abilities that he's already proven to excel at previously in his career.

I really can't understand how people keep overlooking the value in these considerations when currently as is, our team has none of these options and clearly isn't a legitimate contender anyways. And honestly, If people just can't stomach the idea of these possibilities under that condition, we can again easily just flip Simmons expiring to some team that is seeking significant cap relief or tax reduction for multiple depth pieces obviously better than what our vet min retread options would provide.

Seems like people continue to view expirings as some sort of good thing or valuable asset. Usually what you can get for an expiring is a player on that a team doesn't want because they are not on a good contract (eg, Beal). He WAS that player we got for an expiring. We won't likely find anything nearly as good.

As far as bad contract, cap relief, second apron, etc....it's not my money so I am not concerned like some about saving Ishbia money. The only year his contract will matter and hurt us bad is the year after KD expires, IF we don't re-sign KD, but knowing Ishbia, he will re-sign KD to a 4 year contract when he's 38. Or, when Beal is an expiring, maybe we can flip him for another bad contract people will complain about.

Contracts do not occur in a vacuum. They are relative. So Ben Simmons expiring is better than Beal if we take this last season at face value.

I have no expectations for this team next year by the way. No problem running it back until the all star break with a new coach but if we stink by December/January we will know for sure we just suck. Right now I'm like 90% sure we suck, so obviously Ben's contract is worth more.

But yeah, if we turn it around then Beals contract was better (for us and us only), but that's not something we can really predict with any certainty.

I guess it's better if you care about Ishbia saving money, but it doesn't open up cap space. Unless it's because you simply think Simmons will play more and is better, but I don't like that he can't shoot or hit free throws.

[Ghost of Kleine]

Not by itself of course as there'd need to be some follow-up trades if that was the only singular goal. But what it could do that so many people here seem to be willfully ignoring is..................................

1- As a 40 million expiring, it could actually provide us with options that we currently just don't have with Beal as is. Again, right now we really have no options to make roster adjustments because thanks to our front office being completely delusional, going to the extreme, and giving away all of our assets and space, etc. we're completely stuck in a hopeless situation outside of maybe trading one of KD, Booker, or convincing Beal to agree to a trade anyways!

- It could provide us an out from Beal's 50+ million salary and even though (by itself) it obviously wouldn't get us cap space, it would clearly give us a springboard towards getting under the 2nd apron and start creating avenues to actually make adjustments that we're currently prohibited from.

- It'd give us a 40 million expiring that we could flip elsewhere to another tax team that is seeking cap reduction or tax relief in exchange for actual better depth pieces than we constantly field from the vet min options.

- IF he was able/willing to play (in a very implied role) absent of significant pressure, He'd give us a 6'11 mobile jumbo wing forward with size that actually has defensive acumen, ballhandling ability, and playmaking ability. All of these things are obviously things that our team is sorely missing anyways. We don't really need more offensive weapons anyways, and in removing that offensive pressure from the equation with Simmons, it might allow him to feel comfortable and focus on defense, ballhandling, and playmaking, while also not needing, wanting, or dominating the ball when it's clearly much better in Booker and Durants' hands anyways. I'm talking about placing him in a very simplified role that accentuates his natural abilities that he's already proven to excel at previously in his career.

I really can't understand how people keep overlooking the value in these considerations when currently as is, our team has none of these options and clearly isn't a legitimate contender anyways. And honestly, If people just can't stomach the idea of these possibilities under that condition, we can again easily just flip Simmons expiring to some team that is seeking significant cap relief or tax reduction for multiple depth pieces obviously better than what our vet min retread options would provide.

Seems like people continue to view expirings as some sort of good thing or valuable asset. Usually what you can get for an expiring is a player on that a team doesn't want because they are not on a good contract (eg, Beal). He WAS that player we got for an expiring. We won't likely find anything nearly as good.

As far as bad contract, cap relief, second apron, etc....it's not my money so I am not concerned like some about saving Ishbia money. The only year his contract will matter and hurt us bad is the year after KD expires, IF we don't re-sign KD, but knowing Ishbia, he will re-sign KD to a 4 year contract when he's 38. Or, when Beal is an expiring, maybe we can flip him for another bad contract people will complain about.

Contracts do not occur in a vacuum. They are relative. So Ben Simmons expiring is better than Beal if we take this last season at face value.

I have no expectations for this team next year by the way. No problem running it back until the all star break with a new coach but if we stink by December/January we will know for sure we just suck. Right now I'm like 90% sure we suck, so obviously Ben's contract is worth more.

But yeah, if we turn it around then Beals contract was better (for us and us only), but that's not something we can really predict with any certainty.

100% spot on!

[bwgood77]

Does anyone want to chip in for a billboard that says "Ishbia, pull your head out of your ass!"

I’ll chip in for one that says “Jesus was a 7th grader once, don’t trade another pick”

Yeah, I have thought about the fact that Wemby, Giannis, Luka, Jokic, etc, were all 7th graders. No one is evaluating 7th graders or at least no fans, but we will have no chance of getting premier players at the time when we have high picks in the last 2020s and early 2030s that other teams own with no protection. Imagine if we had the #1 pick this past draft and someone else had it because Ish owned the team a couple of years earlier.

[sunskerr]

Seems like people continue to view expirings as some sort of good thing or valuable asset. Usually what you can get for an expiring is a player on that a team doesn't want because they are not on a good contract (eg, Beal). He WAS that player we got for an expiring. We won't likely find anything nearly as good.

As far as bad contract, cap relief, second apron, etc....it's not my money so I am not concerned like some about saving Ishbia money. The only year his contract will matter and hurt us bad is the year after KD expires, IF we don't re-sign KD, but knowing Ishbia, he will re-sign KD to a 4 year contract when he's 38. Or, when Beal is an expiring, maybe we can flip him for another bad contract people will complain about.

Contracts do not occur in a vacuum. They are relative. So Ben Simmons expiring is better than Beal if we take this last season at face value.

I have no expectations for this team next year by the way. No problem running it back until the all star break with a new coach but if we stink by December/January we will know for sure we just suck. Right now I'm like 90% sure we suck, so obviously Ben's contract is worth more.

But yeah, if we turn it around then Beals contract was better (for us and us only), but that's not something we can really predict with any certainty.

I guess it's better if you care about Ishbia saving money, but it doesn't open up cap space. Unless it's because you simply think Simmons will play more and is better, but I don't like that he can't shoot or hit free throws.

It's not about saving ish money it's about getting what is (probably) a very bad contract for us off the books. All this **** matters if you want to build a team that is favorably positioned to acquire talent in the future. But again, the Simmons contract is more valuable right now and we're running it back so you don't have to worry about us trading Beal.

[bwgood77]

No it's not. That is unless you move Booker or Beal. He probably will help us in the future but our biggest priority by far is another nasty big that wants to rebound and play defense.

A new head coach could solve the point guard issue.

If we have a legit big available to us as a free agent, I am all for Kolek.

We cannot go into next season with Nurkic and Drew as our bigs. Bol Bol is either a SG or SF.

The real problem is having these three guys in the starting lineup

Booker
Beal
Allen

We are far too small.

We could not get a rebound to save our soul last year when really needed to.

I agree with both. Kolek would be awesome...he has the same draft profile Nash did with better shooting and passing, but a great defensive big would be nice. However, I don't see any real impact bigs in our range who would be more than likely a 3rd stringer.

You also can't expect Kolek to start. Beal comes out at like the 5 minute mark. That's when you would bring him in. It will be MUCH easier for a good shooting/passing/crafty PG to excel with so many scoring and shooting weapons.

Best case for me is drafting Kolek and trading Nurk and something else for a younger defensive big. I have no idea who that could be though..I really wouldn't want to add our 31 pick but not sure what else we would want to add that a team would value. We have Little but don't see a team valuing that.

I would rather have Capela, who is a great defensive, rebounding, finishing big, but he expires before Nurk...and is better...though they have Okongwu.

I know it's not popular to bring up Ayton but thinking about things, I would have loved to have D'Antoni with our last team run and gun with Ayton, Bridges and that crew, and even with our crew now and Ayton instead of Nurk. Ayton was in like the 95th percentile on fast breaks as was Booker and if we tried to get shots up in 7 seconds or less, Ayton wouldn't have time to hesitate and overthing things. He would just be a finisher and attract gravity to open up shooters. He would have looked infinitely better in a D'Antoni offense..that's the kind of style that would have maximized his play. But Paul wanted to slow things down, let the defense set, and make things tougher for us offensively, even though him and Book were good clutch players. But on this team without a leader, it would have been better without our ball pounding, taking turns mentality.

I would have been all in with D'Antoni prior to the KD trade or even after it instead of Kevin Young. However, I just do not buy the CP3 is washed stuff. He certainly is not 30 yr old CP3. CP3 pounded the ball and made clutch shots in the 4th quarter for 51 straight wins when we had the lead starting the 4th quarter. I think we would have been much better off with him than Beal. We then have CP3 playing limited minutes in a bench role with Point Book and Greyson Allen as the starters in the Back Court. CP3 then is fazed in as our head coach. Maybe Player coach. That is what he was anyway. We also open up that PF/C to put with Nurkic and KD.

The missing piece to the puzzle is not Kolek, he appears to have what we need at the point, but there appears to be several bigs available at where we are picking. Somehow someway we need to get an additional big. It does not have to be a 7' center but the guy needs to be a rebounding hustling SOB. A mean streak would be nice. History told us last year that if we rebounded well and did not turn it over we had a very good chance to win.

I would love to have Capella. I remember when we were going to draft Doncic and go after Capella in free agency. Imagine how good that could have been.

I doubt Atlanta would do this trade, but I would love to trade Beal to them for Capella and Murray. I had a dream.

I also think it was a mistake trading Ayton, even though I was a big critic of his. Especially after firing Monty.

There are moves that could really help this team, I just doubt that our management is up to the task.

I also hated the KD trade like a lot of other folks including you.

If you really think CP3 is still good, even though he cost us the Mavs series, and after game 2, became a different player, and was just not the same or an impact player last year, how long do you expect him to contribute?

He was added to the championship Warriors (less than 2 years ago) this past season and didn't even make the playoffs. He can't score any more other than some 3s, but he isn't great at those, so more players would double Book and KD. Would you really have given him another big contract at 39?

2 players are older than him. LeBron, and PJ Tucker by one day. Then the other players near him are Taj Gibson and Kyle Lowry. He has already declined significantly and will so more.

Beal was one of only like 5 guards who averaged 18/5/4 on 60% TS%. If you add in his 43% from 3 he was the only one to do that. He's significantly underrated here. He did play an terrible game in the last game, but it is not indicative of his season.

[bwgood77]

Contracts do not occur in a vacuum. They are relative. So Ben Simmons expiring is better than Beal if we take this last season at face value.

I have no expectations for this team next year by the way. No problem running it back until the all star break with a new coach but if we stink by December/January we will know for sure we just suck. Right now I'm like 90% sure we suck, so obviously Ben's contract is worth more.

But yeah, if we turn it around then Beals contract was better (for us and us only), but that's not something we can really predict with any certainty.

I guess it's better if you care about Ishbia saving money, but it doesn't open up cap space. Unless it's because you simply think Simmons will play more and is better, but I don't like that he can't shoot or hit free throws.

It's not about saving ish money it's about getting what is (probably) a very bad contract for us off the books. All this **** matters if you want to build a team that is favorably positioned to acquire talent in the future. But again, the Simmons contract is more valuable right now and we're running it back so you don't have to worry about us trading Beal.

Acquire talent how? Do you understand the cap position? In 2027 maybe if we simply just let KD go but I have a feeling we will re-sign him. I'm not against trading anyone if it's a good trade, but that one isn't...at all. I thought we'd get nothing for CP3 and Shamet and we got a talented player. If I thought that trade was a steal I would have felt the same way about trading Simmons for him if we had him. Expiring leaves us over the cap with nothing. Not replacement players but no one. Possibly a mid level guy but that's it, and you can't get much for that, but with Book's supermax kicking in, maybe just the tax MLE.

Once we made the KD trade we were screwed for the foreseeable future. Though I think the Beal trade would have been a good one even if we hadn't made the KD trade. We'd have a solid starting 5 a trade piece for Jae (Allen was offered)..and all our firsts, and a team with mostly continuity and chemistry.

[Slim Charless]

No it's not. That is unless you move Booker or Beal. He probably will help us in the future but our biggest priority by far is another nasty big that wants to rebound and play defense.

A new head coach could solve the point guard issue.

If we have a legit big available to us as a free agent, I am all for Kolek.

We cannot go into next season with Nurkic and Drew as our bigs. Bol Bol is either a SG or SF.

The real problem is having these three guys in the starting lineup

Booker
Beal
Allen

We are far too small.

We could not get a rebound to save our soul last year when really needed to.

I agree with both. Kolek would be awesome...he has the same draft profile Nash did with better shooting and passing, but a great defensive big would be nice. However, I don't see any real impact bigs in our range who would be more than likely a 3rd stringer.

You also can't expect Kolek to start. Beal comes out at like the 5 minute mark. That's when you would bring him in. It will be MUCH easier for a good shooting/passing/crafty PG to excel with so many scoring and shooting weapons.

Best case for me is drafting Kolek and trading Nurk and something else for a younger defensive big. I have no idea who that could be though..I really wouldn't want to add our 31 pick but not sure what else we would want to add that a team would value. We have Little but don't see a team valuing that.

I would rather have Capela, who is a great defensive, rebounding, finishing big, but he expires before Nurk...and is better...though they have Okongwu.

I know it's not popular to bring up Ayton but thinking about things, I would have loved to have D'Antoni with our last team run and gun with Ayton, Bridges and that crew, and even with our crew now and Ayton instead of Nurk. Ayton was in like the 95th percentile on fast breaks as was Booker and if we tried to get shots up in 7 seconds or less, Ayton wouldn't have time to hesitate and overthing things. He would just be a finisher and attract gravity to open up shooters. He would have looked infinitely better in a D'Antoni offense..that's the kind of style that would have maximized his play. But Paul wanted to slow things down, let the defense set, and make things tougher for us offensively, even though him and Book were good clutch players. But on this team without a leader, it would have been better without our ball pounding, taking turns mentality.

I would have been all in with D'Antoni prior to the KD trade or even after it instead of Kevin Young. However, I just do not buy the CP3 is washed stuff. He certainly is not 30 yr old CP3. CP3 pounded the ball and made clutch shots in the 4th quarter for 51 straight wins when we had the lead starting the 4th quarter. I think we would have been much better off with him than Beal. We then have CP3 playing limited minutes in a bench role with Point Book and Greyson Allen as the starters in the Back Court. CP3 then is fazed in as our head coach. Maybe Player coach. That is what he was anyway. We also open up that PF/C to put with Nurkic and KD.

The missing piece to the puzzle is not Kolek, he appears to have what we need at the point, but there appears to be several bigs available at where we are picking. Somehow someway we need to get an additional big. It does not have to be a 7' center but the guy needs to be a rebounding hustling SOB. A mean streak would be nice. History told us last year that if we rebounded well and did not turn it over we had a very good chance to win.

I would love to have Capella. I remember when we were going to draft Doncic and go after Capella in free agency. Imagine how good that could have been.

I doubt Atlanta would do this trade, but I would love to trade Beal to them for Capella and Murray. I had a dream.

I also think it was a mistake trading Ayton, even though I was a big critic of his. Especially after firing Monty.

There are moves that could really help this team, I just doubt that our management is up to the task.

I also hated the KD trade like a lot of other folks including you.

This is just an outright lie. A complete and total lie.

Myself and GoK are basically the only ones that still even somewhat supported DA and were not all about the trade. You were FAR more than "a critic" you bashed him in every GDT and every other post you made. When the trade happened you, KLEON, Diddy and other DA haters loved it. To say anything else is a massive lie.

Edit: Or ignore me while you frantically try and go back and edit your posts from that day. Gee, I wonder what decision you'll make.

[TeamTragic]

I thought Gambo said we hear about Vogel today?

[TeamTragic]

Clippers not offering PG the max and they want to extend Lue.

Meanwhile Kawhi barely can even last a few games in the playoffs.

[sunskerr]

I guess it's better if you care about Ishbia saving money, but it doesn't open up cap space. Unless it's because you simply think Simmons will play more and is better, but I don't like that he can't shoot or hit free throws.

It's not about saving ish money it's about getting what is (probably) a very bad contract for us off the books. All this **** matters if you want to build a team that is favorably positioned to acquire talent in the future. But again, the Simmons contract is more valuable right now and we're running it back so you don't have to worry about us trading Beal.

Acquire talent how? Do you understand the cap position? In 2027 maybe if we simply just let KD go but I have a feeling we will re-sign him. I'm not against trading anyone if it's a good trade, but that one isn't...at all. I thought we'd get nothing for CP3 and Shamet and we got a talented player. If I thought that trade was a steal I would have felt the same way about trading Simmons for him if we had him. Expiring leaves us over the cap with nothing. Not replacement players but no one. Possibly a mid level guy but that's it, and you can't get much for that, but with Book's supermax kicking in, maybe just the tax MLE.

Once we made the KD trade we were screwed for the foreseeable future. Though I think the Beal trade would have been a good one even if we hadn't made the KD trade. We'd have a solid starting 5 a trade piece for Jae (Allen was offered)..and all our firsts, and a team with mostly continuity and chemistry.

Everything you posted was already account for in my previous posts so you should read those again.

There is literally 0 reason to be maxed out with Beal's contract if we're not contending. That's just how it is lol. Like what do you think we are supposed to do if we take this year at face value? Are we supposed to try to be competitive if we can't win? No, you're supposed to clear the books. It almost doesn't even matter if we don't have our own picks - if you aren't a contender and you're maxed out you should damn well be trying to avoid contracts like Beals The only thing worse than being maxed out with no picks is being old, maxed out, with no picks.

I don't actually give a **** if we suck and have no picks lol. It is clear to me after ~20 years of supporting this team that there is no difference between 2nd, 5th, 10th, and last place.

Of course I understand the cap position we're in We're maxed out and as far as we know, we're not contenders. That's the bottom line. The only scenario in which Beal's contract > Simmons is the one I already told you about: the scenario in which next year we're contenders - which is something we have nothing to use to predict. In fact all we have is the opposite - the data from this year showing that we are mediocre. Anybody saying they know for sure what will happen is a fortune teller - I can't say for sure we will suck or contend, but I can tell you it is much more likely we will suck.

And on those grounds, if we're playing it safe, then the Beal contract is okay to be moved for an expiring (but again, the Nets will not do that because Simmons contract is more valuable - I have also never implied that Beal is even tradeable). If we end up contending and get to the finals I will be the first to congratulate you on your divinations.

[Stark]

After being totally on board with blowing it up aftermath of the disaster Wolves series. Here I am, the trade machine in front of me, thinking of any kind of solution to make this team work with the limited options the Suns have.

I don't think Beal is tradable because of his contract but I believe the first plan should be to try to trade him for some depth and pieces as many suggested before. Lakers, Miami or Warriors (especially if they part ways with Klay) might be crazy enough to give it a shot and Beal might also wanna play for these teams but I see the chances of an actual trade happening very slim.

What would you guys think of trade packages like:

-Reaves, Hachimura, Gabe Vincent
-Rozier, D. Robinson, Jovic

While these players don't fix our issues at least we would have more flexibility to flip some assets and have more depth. Of course, like I said again I don't see teams rushing to the Suns to add Beal to their roster anyway.

The more likely scenario is though we'll run it back with our "big three" and make some other trades to improve the roster.

Beal trade or without the Beal trade though first thing I would do is try to trade Nurkic. I was super impressed with him playing 76 games this year and the team looked horrible whenever he's not on the floor. However, the fit is not there. As long as we have our 'big three" our perimeter defence will be lacking and Nurkic is not the guy who can make up their mistakes by being the rim protector. Also, his inability to finish and zero vertical threat as an alley-oop option just make it easier for defences to focus on our perimeter players.

The problem is, that there is pretty much almost no good trade partner for Nurkic. However, I believe maybe one team could be interested in him and that team is Memphis Grizzlies. They traded Steven Adams and they have no actual big on their roster. Next to Jackson Jr., they don't have to worry that much about his lack of rim protection and if you have a good defensive team, he can still be useful on the defensive end. Nurkic is not a Vucevic, he's more like a Valanciunas. He's slow but he has a good basketball IQ and he's not afraid of contact.

I'd pull the trigger if the Grizzlies would agree to swap Nurkic for Marcus Smart tbh. We need some players who are not afraid of anybody including their teammates. He'd bring some much-needed perimeter defence and the hustle this team lacks.

Another team that is a really good trade partner for us is Orlando Magic. I've mentioned them as a good trading partner during the trade deadline as their biggest weakness is their 3PT shooting and WE HAVE SO MANY SHOOTING GUARDS. One of those guards was the best 3PT shooter in the league last season. Grayson played out of his mind but like I said before, I'd sell him when his value is the highest. If I were Magic instead of going after Klay and wasting all of my cap space, I'd simply trade for Allen and spend the rest of my cap space on other needs. (I'm not sure when we can trade Allen as we resigned him recently though?)

G. Allen for Wendell Carter Jr - G. Allen for Isaac - G. Allen for Cole & Bitadze. All of these trades would bring us some defence, size and athleticism.

Other than that I know you guys are not gonna love this and I can't believe I'm also suggesting the idea but somehow flip the 2031 pick + some dudes for Micic and Nik Richards??? I think my fantasy of Micic turning this franchise around is getting to dangerous levels.

I'd also get rid of Gordon I think. I don't like him. Keeping Bol, O'neal, and Thad Young would be nice. Sign PJ Tucker? I don't know lol.

Draft Devin Carter.

After all that rosterbation, I come up with this abomination of a roster. Less 3PT shooting, lack of dependable wings, big depth in question, one less draft pick for the future (but who cares am I right?)

Beal - Smart - Micic
Book - Smart - Carter - Lee
O'Neal - N. Little - Okogie
KD - Bol - Tucker - Thad Young
Wendell Carter Jr - Nik Richards

edit: I have no idea why I posted this to around the nba topic instead of the off-season one but I won't move it. If mods wanna move it, go for it.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.azcentral.com/story/sports/nba/suns/2024/05/03/national-nba-writers-address-fixing-suns-break-up-phoenixs-big-3/73551229007/

Trade Kevin Durant? Trade Devin Booker? We asked national NBA media how to fix Phoenix Suns
Duane Rankin
Arizona Republic
Published 7:53 a.m. MT May, 3, 2024.

The Republic asked several national NBA writers two questions about the Phoenix Suns after being swept by the Minnesota Timberwolves in the first round.

One, what went wrong? Two, how do the Suns fix this?

Let’s talk.

Tim MacMahon, ESPN
What went wrong?: “It’s pretty simple. They went all in to build a star-studded, top heavy roster that simply wasn’t good enough to contend in the Western Conference. The Bradley Beal trade was a massive risk that did not pay dividends. You can talk about his health. There was warning signs of that. It’s not like he was healthy his last couple of seasons in Washington. What you had were three big names and way too many holes to contend in an absolute loaded Western Conference. The Suns ended up being a pretty good team that just wasn’t good enough." How do the Suns fix this?: “Good luck.

I really don’t know what to tell you on that. Not only does Bradley Beal have maybe the most lopsided contract in terms of value in the NBA (five years, $251M), but he has a no-trade clause that somehow transferred over when you made the deal to get him when the Wizards were desperate to dump that contract. There’s obviously just not a lot of flexibility when you’re that far over the second (tax) apron under the current CBA (Collective Bargaining Agreement). You’ve blown all your picks basically.”

Trade Kevin Durant?
MacMahon: “I think the best way out for the Suns is certainly not what Mat Ishbia wants to hear and that would be to trade Kevin Durant. Now, you’re not contending right away by doing that. You’re probably taking a step back, but if you want to have a chance to build something sustainable around Devin Booker, I think that would be the only logical route given the lack of assets. There would still be plenty of interest in Kevin Durant. My first phone call probably would be to his original home. I don’t know what Oklahoma City’s interest would be, but I could convince myself he would be one hell of a fit there and it wouldn’t be about the players you’re getting back, but obviously the picks in that case. Again, I think to build something sustainable around Devin Booker will require patience from Book, but you’re going to need picks and you’re going to need assets to be able to have any kind of a chance. The quick fix, the window right now, that’s not going to happen.”

Marcus Thompson, The Athletic
What went wrong?: "The Suns' need for a point guard proved greater than the franchise anticipated. After reaching the NBA Finals with Chris Paul, Phoenix perhaps should have known the value of a floor general. For all of Beal's greatness, managing a team in a postseason setting was a tough ask. The composure necessary for postseason basketball, the emphasis on attention to detail, the execution of time and situation – it's all vital. The T-Wolves had a cagey veteran in Mike Conley and a deft playmaker in Anthony Edwards, who knows the pieces around him well enough now to play to their strengths. Beal can get better at it. But when considering the master game managers and possession dictators in the West – including James Harden, Luka Doncic, Nikola Jokic and Jamal Murray – it might behoove the Suns to bring in someone who can free up Beale to do what he does best.”

Howard Beck, The Ringer
What went wrong?: "This is really simple. The Suns tried to use a 2010 formula in 2024. They went for the Big 3, the super team, thinking they’d get the results that the Heat did 10 years ago or that the Celtics did in 2008. Two problems. The NBA rules now make it nearly impossible to build a decent roster around three max players and the Suns, frankly, picked the wrong third star. Bradley Beal is a good player, but he’s not a max player and he can’t stay healthy. The Suns lacked size, they lacked depth, they had no point guard to organize the offense. It all showed.”

How do the Suns fix this?: "Honestly, I don’t think this is fixable, not if fixing it means contending for a title. I just don’t see it. Durant is going to be 36 in September with a lot of miles and a really extended injury history. Beal is virtually untradeable. I think they’re stuck with him and the CBA rules make it nearly impossible to add high-level role players when you’re this far over the salary cap."

Trade Devin Booker?
Beck: "Honestly, I think the Suns’ best bet is trading Durant to fortify the roster around Booker and get back some draft capital, but honestly, I wouldn’t rule out trading Booker, too, since it’s going to be really hard to build anything sustainable given how little they have to work with.”

Michael Wright, NBA.com
What went wrong?: "Roster construction is what went wrong. Too top heavy with no depth. And when you've got three players that have largely been successful throughout their careers come together and not be successful, I think that manifests on the floor. I think we've seen that."

How do the Suns fix this?: "I have no idea. The Suns are pretty much locked into that expensive roster. Best they can hope for is the Big 3 spends some time working together in the offseason, Frank Vogel devises schemes that better optimize that Big 3 and they're healthier next season overall than they were this season.”

Ben Golliver, Washington Post
What went wrong?: "Well, to put it simply, they traded for Bradley Beal. By taking on Bradley Beal's contract, they really had to make cuts at other parts of the roster. Kind of created a top-heavy team that couldn't rebound well enough, didn't have enough size on the wings and didn't really have a great backcourt defensive stopper, either. They kind of got a worse version, an older version of Devin Booker. You didn't need two of those and they wound up having two of those. They never achieved the elite offense they had hoped to get with the Big 3. So trying to undo this winds up being a really tricky deal because Bradley Beal just doesn't have a ton of trade value right now."

How do the Suns fix this?:
"I think their best move going forward is to simply run it back and to wait. Take a page out of the Los Angeles Lakers playbook. They traded for Russell Westbrook. It was a total disaster. Their Big 3 didn't work. They waited. The money went down a little bit. They were able to swing a deal to move off of Russell Westbrook and to get some role players that made some more sense at the trade deadline last year. Guys like D'Angelo Russell and Jarred Vanderbilt. That's kind of what you want to do. You want to ship out Bradley Beal to get some role players who better support Kevin Durant and Devin Booker, but you're not going to be able to do it anytime soon. He just doesn't have the trade value this summer. So you're going to wait until the trade deadline, hope he plays well to start next season and if that doesn't work, maybe you have wait all the way to next summer. Unfortunately, I think the Suns are going to be stuck as this sort of good, not quite very good, not quite elite team. You're just going to have to settle for now."

Michael Scotto, HoopsHype
What went wrong?: "Several things went wrong for the Phoenix Suns during the 2023-24 season. First, the Suns built around a Big 3 of Devin Booker, Kevin Durant and acquired Bradley Beal as the third piece. Beal is on a max contract and doesn’t seamlessly fit with Booker in the backcourt as both players have traditionally have occupied the same shooting guard spot for most of their careers even though they can create for others at times. So by building around three stars, it left Phoenix with little flexibility for depth and their free agent signings for veteran minimum contracts to start the season didn’t provide enough production, which is one reason they traded several second round picks to acquire former Nets swing man Royce O’Neale, who is going to be a free agent this summer. The Suns failed to acquire or sign a traditional point guard who can create and initiate the offense and play defense. It’s one reason why the team was linked to Pacers guard T.J. McConnell on the trade market during the season.”

How do the Suns fix this?: "First, the team needs to figure out if Frank Vogel is the right coach for the job. If they keep Vogel, they’ll need to find another veteran coach to replace Kevin Young, who is departing for the BYU job in college basketball and was considered essentially the offensive coordinator for the Suns. Since there’s no indication Durant or Booker is going to be traded and no team is expected to take on Beal’s large contract, the Suns then need to add a traditional point guard via the trade market or in free agency who can set up the offense, play defense and nail catch-and-shoot 3-pointers around their stars. Phoenix will likely be limited to using minimum contracts and will have to potentially take chances on players looking to rebound from a down season considering depth was a major issue for Phoenix last season.”

Ian Begley, SNYtv
What went wrong?: "Bench depth really hurt the Suns. My man Bobby Marks from ESPN pointed out they were last in 3-point shooting off the bench (31.9% in the regular season). Lack of a point guard I think hurt them as well. You would think with all that firepower on offense, they would’ve just blown teams out more often than they did this past season. Defensively, there were issues on that side of the ball as well. So plenty to try to fix for James Jones and the Suns this offseason.”

How do the Suns fix this?:
“It’s not going to happen, but I might try to turn the page and see what the market is for Kevin Durant and with Devin Booker, this is probably the best time to trade him if you’re going to totally change directions. I don’t either of those are going to happen. So you’ve got to get creative. You got to try to really recruit some veteran free agents that can defend, particularly on the perimeter. Try to recruit those guys to come for minimum contracts. Got to hit on the draft this year. Try to do what some of the other contending teams have done, which is take an experienced college player and hope that player can contribute in the rotation right away. It’s not easy. A lot would have to go right for them to get to where they want to be and it’s tough because obviously the financial limitations, but I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possibility for them to come back and get it right and be a contending next year.”

[Saberestar]

I thought Gambo said we hear about Vogel today?

Yeah, presumably we will know about Vogel today.

[Stix]

I thought Gambo said we hear about Vogel today?

Its Gambo so...

[Saberestar]

Marc Stein reported on his #thisleague UNCUT podcast with TNT Sports' Chris Haynes that the Suns may not give Vogel the axe just yet.

"I have heard that one option that the Suns have considered is, just completely redo the staff around him," Stein said.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10120009-nba-rumors-suns-considering-keeping-frank-vogel-completely-redoing-hcs-staff

[TeamTragic]

Marc Stein reported on his #thisleague UNCUT podcast with TNT Sports' Chris Haynes that the Suns may not give Vogel the axe just yet.

"I have heard that one option that the Suns have considered is, just completely redo the staff around him," Stein said.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10120009-nba-rumors-suns-considering-keeping-frank-vogel-completely-redoing-hcs-staff

I guess nobody wants to coach this team?

YIKES

[Slim Charless]

Marc Stein reported on his #thisleague UNCUT podcast with TNT Sports' Chris Haynes that the Suns may not give Vogel the axe just yet.

"I have heard that one option that the Suns have considered is, just completely redo the staff around him," Stein said.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10120009-nba-rumors-suns-considering-keeping-frank-vogel-completely-redoing-hcs-staff

I guess nobody wants to coach this team?

YIKES

Vogel isn't the problem. Players have to play. Fix the fit between the players and problem is solve.

There needs to be a VERY good reason to fire a coach after 1 year. Vogel hasn't given me one to fire him after 1 season.

[Ghost of Kleine]

https://www.si.com/nba/suns/phoenix-suns-long-term-future-ugly

Analyst: Suns' Long-Term Future is 'Ugly'
The future isn't exactly optimistic around the Phoenix Suns.

DONNIE DRUIN
2 HOURS AGO


PHOENIX -- The Phoenix Suns knew what they were doing.

One year ago, the Suns were still competing in the Western Conference playoffs. Fans were still getting used to Kevin Durant playing in a Suns uniform, and though change was still seen under new owner Mat Ishbia, Phoenix was about to redefine what it meant to go "all in" on a championship push. Now, the dust has settled on the Suns' most recent postseason outing - a clean 4-0 sweep courtesy of the Minnesota Timberwolves - and seemingly everybody is wondering what's next for Phoenix.

"All he’s done since then is trade four unprotected first-round picks, four unprotected pick swaps, three swaps of the swaps and nine second-round picks, all in an effort to turn a second-tier contender into a champion. Other than Booker, the only roster player left from when Ishbia took over is Josh Okogie," wrote The Athletic's John Hollinger on Ishbia.

"Let’s just say it didn’t go as hoped. The Suns used every available asset at their disposal and went $25 million into the luxury tax, and in the savage West, their reward was zero playoff wins. Building around a Booker-Bridges-Ayton-Johnson core and some depth guys wasn’t likely to yield championship parades — but it wasn’t going to lead to this either. Phoenix is screwed, a non-contender that might not even make the playoffs in next year’s loaded West, but one with no chance to rebuild effectively until the 2030s. The 2030s."

The Suns are now severely restricted financially thanks to their positioning in the second apron of the luxury tax with no real wiggle room besides dealing the likes of Kevin Durant, Bradley Beal, or Devin Booker. Trading Durant has been a popular topic of discussion to this point, and after going through that scenario on his own, Hollinger concluded with this:

"Setting that scenario aside, it gets pretty dull, pretty quickly. A more realistic Suns’ offseason endgame might just be morosely doubling down on this losing bet and hoping to scratch out 40-something wins; the problem in the NBA is that star players start looking for the exits when they sniff the rank odor of long-term decline seeping in. The Suns will actually have even more first-round picks to trade (they can send out a 2031 first and the 22nd pick in the 2024 draft), but the difficulty of matching salary could make it hard to convert, say, Nassir Little or David Roddy into anything consequential," Hollinger wrote.

"The Suns can at least take solace in the fact that Booker is just starting a four-year extension and seems to like Phoenix; the team has a floor as long as he’s around, and there’s enough high-end talent to maybe ride the treadmill to another middling playoff seed again. But the long term here is ugly, and even the short term seems only mildly interesting." You won't find many who disagree, though Ishbia was adamant the "house isn't on fire" - you can read more about that here.
https://www.si.com/nba/suns/phoenix-suns-owner-mat-ishbia-house-fire