Amare Stoudemire to Cavs (proposal)

[lilfishi22]

Never said Lou was = or > Varejao. I just said they have similar roles and Lou does the job at 1/10th of the price.

[SportsInfoBar]

Never said Lou was = or > Varejao. I just said they have similar roles and Lou does the job at 1/10th of the price.

Andy can legitimately play center for us is one of the biggest differences...in fact he will most likely be our starting center in two years. I am betting Lou gets a raise next year anyway so the $ difference won't be as large. I like the way Lou plays the game, he is just not the defender Andy is, that is the biggest difference between the two.

Amare makes 16+ mil, Hickson 1.4 mil...is Amare 12 times better than Hickson??

IF Amare was the Amare of two years ago AND he played with some heart on defense...an Andy, Amare, Lebron front court would be awesome long term. The thing is Hickson may not get to what Amare was, but I think he CAN get to what Amare is doing right now. 19 pts 7 boards a night....and for much less money and with no injury risks at the moment, and with less attitude.

[lilfishi22]

Andy can legitimately play center for us is one of the biggest differences...in fact he will most likely be our starting center in two years. I am betting Lou gets a raise next year anyway so the $ difference won't be as large. I like the way Lou plays the game, he is just not the defender Andy is, that is the biggest difference between the two.

The point is, as good as Varejao's defense may be, it's definitely no game changer, then I might as well keep Lou's non-game changing production and hustle for a tenth of the costs.

Amare makes 16+ mil, Hickson 1.4 mil...is Amare 12 times better than Hickson??

I wasn't implying Varejao was suppose to be x times better than Lou according to salary. Lou is a bargain for what he gives off the bench and we're not exactly in it to win it so we're not going to pay Varejao 10x more to do what Lou does.

IF Amare was the Amare of two years ago AND he played with some heart on defense...an Andy, Amare, Lebron front court would be awesome long term. The thing is Hickson may not get to what Amare was, but I think he CAN get to what Amare is doing right now. 19 pts 7 boards a night....and for much less money and with no injury risks at the moment, and with less attitude.

I agree with you, Amare isn't who he used to be, but the fact remains, we're not giving up Amare to bet on a future where Hickson MAY become a 19/7 player. If we're talking about potential, Clark could be a 18/7/4 guy. As for defense, Amare will be more than serviceable if the Celtics can make Ray Ray look like a good defender, heck even Mo Williams look decent when playing in a defense as good as yours.

To be frank, we want more than what you have to offer, because no matter how you look at it, having Stoudemire in your lineup would pretty much make you guys a dynasty. You ain't gonna get away with no lowball offers if we're basically giving you a championship.

[SportsInfoBar]

The point is, as good as Varejao's defense may be, it's definitely no game changer, then I might as well keep Lou's non-game changing production and hustle for a tenth of the costs.

This is where we will disagree, his defense has been a game changer many a night for us.

When Andy missed a few games earlier this year, we gave up 100 pts, four games in a row. He is a very very important piece to our team. He probably is worth more to us than he would be to you guys.

IF I thought Amare would guarantee us a dynasty, I would be all over it...I am not sold on that as a fact. And the money and injury risk is very high. Watch these highlights...very first one shown, check out Amare's effort: http://www.nba.com/games/20091202/PHXCL ... GIboxscore You guys ARE a good team, who may contend, why do you think if he came here he would all of a sudden change??

I really don't think it is a case of Hickson maybe becoming a 19-7 player, it is just a matter of when. He had 7 offensive touches against you guys and had 13 pts. The reason he doesn't play huge minutes for us yet is that his defense is still a work in progress.

This is my last post on this topic....I really hope you guys do well in the playoffs, I love watching Nash play.

[Miklo]

If Amare was here and Lebron bolted, how well would that work out? If Amare won't play defense in Phoenix, what makes you think he would here? Amare would poison the team if Lebron bolted. And the odds are that he would bolt also...so then we would have traded one of our building blocks for .....nothing.

All Star games generally mean you can score the ball, in rare cases do the reward defensive players. And Amare of 2 years ago is a totally different player than Amare of today. Amare has had 2 major surgeries, plays no defense, is owed almost $18 million next year---if he was so good, why in the world would you guys even think of trading him??

If Hickson can play and put up 14pts and 7 boards a night, is it really worth $15 million more for 5 more pts a night? Since Hickson has moved into the starting lineup he is shooting 61%, which is tops for ALL power forwards in the league in that time frame (sure a lot of the shots are from Lebron's passing, but it isn't like Amare doesn't play with the best point guard in the league, right?). IF you guys had Hickson, you would be talking the same way us Cavs fans are about him.

And Lou verse Andy is not even close...Andy is a legit 6'11" and is a GREAT defender, he is known for flopping, but he really doesn't do that as much anymore (the refs stopped calling it is one of the main reasons)...he plays great help and man defense and takes a lot of legitimate charges. His offensive game has grown each year in the league...he probably won't ever be a good jump shooter, but he works on his close to the basket moves and is very good at cutting to the rim at the right times.

My short answer to all this crap is:

To be frank, we want more than what you have to offer, because no matter how you look at it, having Stoudemire in your lineup would pretty much make you guys a dynasty. You ain't gonna get away with no lowball offers if we're basically giving you a championship.

But here's my spin. SportsInfoBar, you seem to have VERY little knowledge of the salary structure of the NBA. Which is fine, because sports betting folks like you (yes I went to the "professional" looking website you link to in your sig) don't need to be bothered much by that stuff. And I won't go too far into that. But typically a player doesn't get paid twice as much because he will put up twice the statistics. Again, I know that in sports betting, it is all about the numbers. But here on RealGM or at least on the Suns page which is all I can directly speak to, we are basketball enthusiasts. Many of us haven't looked at a "statistic" in days, but we can tell you what type of PLAYER Amar'e is and JJ Hickson is.

Anyhoo, your pay is not at all tied to the statistics you put up. Neither is your playing time, role on the team, or worth overall in a basketball sense. And it FOR SURE isn't tied to statistics you put up in your worst season/as you recover from having to lay horizontally for weeks (Amar'e) or what you COULD put up if you developed to your full potential (Hickson, or as lilfishi astutely pointed out, Earl Clark - who has more upside than Hickson in the first place). If you DO think pay is tied to statistics, then please drop the whole Varejao vs. Amundson thing - because Amundson gets paid NOTHING compared to the ratio of his stats to Andy's.

Amar'e is having a bad season. I'll give you that - on a silver platter. Does that mean he is overpaid? The results are certainly inconclusive there. If you go by POTENTIAL (which you do, given your arguments about Hickson), then Amare is far underpaid. Another blatant contradiction. The fact that he doesn't play defense (much like the "fact" that Hickson doesn't rebound, which you claim is just because of his role - why can't we use this argument for Amar'e?), doesn't make him an MLE player. A lot of guys who are more one dimensional get paid more.

So what I'm saying is: you can't say because Hickson COULD IN A PERFECT WORLD put up 14 and 7 and Amar'e AT HIS WORST DOES put up 19 and 8, they should be paid the same.

All in all, I'm glad you have some delusion that Hickson is better than Amar'e and Varejao should be a perennial allstar, because we would **NEVER** give up Amar'e for the absurd packages you and your boy have suggested. If LeBron heard your argument for him playing next to 2 scrubs, one of which will never reach his full potential because his game just doesn't translate fully to the pro level (Hickson) and one who works hard but is no more talented than Robin Lopez (Varejao), instead of playing next to Amar'e, that would give him just one more reason to leave.

Of course he would have to balance that against all the rings he's won because of your wonderful "defense wins championships" mentality. Oh, wait...Amar'e has won just as many rings as him. But that's okay, Lebron hasn't been around for too long so he hasn't gotten a chance to match all the rings you won before him..oh, wait. Don't come in here talking about how your system is better than ours or our players do and don't do this and that when you've won just as many rings as we have. By that logic, I can come to your board and talk about how your roster is LeBron plus a bunch of under-talented, slow, flop-happy meatballs. No wonder LeBron wants to escape the Cleveland hell since they won't surround him with anything better than an over-the-hill Shaq and a "pretty good" point guard.

[lilfishi22]

He probably is worth more to us than he would be to you guys.

That pretty much sums up the whole reason why we don't want Varejao or JJ for Amare. Amare is arguable more valuable to you than he is to us in this situation.

Should Amare walk for nothing (unlikely), we get his 17mil cap space and while we may be mediocre for a few seasons after he leaves, it's not like we're winning a championship with Amare anytime in the Nash era (in the next 3 seasons) anyway.

For us, we (the fans, a lot of us anyway) have been preparing for Amare's farewell party for a while now should he leave, so it's not the end of the world for us. Even if Amare leaves, we still have a lot to gain.

Whereas you guys have everything to lose should Lebron leave, that's why Amare is more important to you guys than he is to us

Good luck to you Cavs as well, I hope you give Kobe and the Lakers a solid beat down the next time you meet.

[Miklo]

Good luck to you Cavs as well, I hope you give Kobe and the Lakers a solid beat down the next time you meet.

I can second this...but I hope you get ravaged my the Magic

[SportsInfoBar]

But here's my spin. SportsInfoBar, you seem to have VERY little knowledge of the salary structure of the NBA. Which is fine, because sports betting folks like you (yes I went to the "professional" looking website you link to in your sig) don't need to be bothered much by that stuff. And I won't go too far into that. But typically a player doesn't get paid twice as much because he will put up twice the statistics. Again, I know that in sports betting, it is all about the numbers. But here on RealGM or at least on the Suns page which is all I can directly speak to, we are basketball enthusiasts. Many of us haven't looked at a "statistic" in days, but we can tell you what type of PLAYER Amar'e is and JJ Hickson is.

My website has nothing to do with this..that is something I put up about a year ago and have forgotten about. It is a side hobby which I have had no time for, it is a free toolbar that I make nothing from doing, so why the heck do I need a "professional" website?? I understand FAR more than you can imagine about the salary structure in the NBA. And any GM that does not calculate value for dollar spent is a GM that will not have a job very long. You can't tell me what type of player Hickson is because you haven't even watched him play, you are Assuming how good he is based on how many points and rebounds he gets. If I went only on stats, I would LOVE Amare, wouldn't I? I have SEEN him play many many times, and I know he plays ZERO defense. This is not just something from this year. When Phoenix came to town last year I was at that game too, and he was just as bad, Andy blew by him for at least 3 layups in that game, of course he hit some jumpers and it "looked" like he had a decent game, but if you watched the game you would have known better.

Anyhoo, your pay is not at all tied to the statistics you put up. Neither is your playing time, role on the team, or worth overall in a basketball sense. And it FOR SURE isn't tied to statistics you put up in your worst season/as you recover from having to lay horizontally for weeks (Amar'e) or what you COULD put up if you developed to your full potential (Hickson, or as lilfishi astutely pointed out, Earl Clark - who has more upside than Hickson in the first place). If you DO think pay is tied to statistics, then please drop the whole Varejao vs. Amundson thing - because Amundson gets paid NOTHING compared to the ratio of his stats to Andy's.

I used some stats in conjunction with what I see. You don't like the efficiency stats because it does not benefit your argument. But the efficiency stats are the most important, it measure how much value you bring towards winning the game..isn't that the goal? Or is to go to an All-Star game?

Amar'e is having a bad season. I'll give you that - on a silver platter. Does that mean he is overpaid? The results are certainly inconclusive there. If you go by POTENTIAL (which you do, given your arguments about Hickson), then Amare is far underpaid. Another blatant contradiction. The fact that he doesn't play defense (much like the "fact" that Hickson doesn't rebound, which you claim is just because of his role - why can't we use this argument for Amar'e?), doesn't make him an MLE player. A lot of guys who are more one dimensional get paid more.

Since Hickson has become the started his per 36 numbers are: 16.8 pts and 7.05 rebounds...Amare's for the year are 20.1 and 8.25. Amare is the better player, we all know that, Hickson is a better player NOW than you think. No injuries and on a cheap contract. By all means you can keep Amare, I do NOT want him. Nothing you can say will change my mind on this.

So what I'm saying is: you can't say because Hickson COULD IN A PERFECT WORLD put up 14 and 7 and Amar'e AT HIS WORST DOES put up 19 and 8, they should be paid the same.

Have no idea what the hell your trying to say here and I don't think you do either.

All in all, I'm glad you have some delusion that Hickson is better than Amar'e

You can't read, I never said he was better, I said for the risks involved and money they are each paid, I would just rather keep Hickson.

and Varejao should be a perennial allstar,

yep, he should be, I am glad you are finally starting to understand.

because we would **NEVER** give up Amar'e for the absurd packages you and your boy have suggested.

And I would ***NEVER*** give up my "scrubs" for Amare.

If LeBron heard your argument for him playing next to 2 scrubs, one of which will never reach his full potential because his game just doesn't translate fully to the pro level (Hickson) and one who works hard but is no more talented than Robin Lopez (Varejao), instead of playing next to Amar'e, that would give him just one more reason to leave.

our front office went to Lebron before LAST years trade deadline and asked if he wanted Amare...he is not here, so you can guess to the answer he gave.

Of course he would have to balance that against all the rings he's won because of your wonderful "defense wins championships" mentality. Oh, wait...Amar'e has won just as many rings as him. But that's okay, Lebron hasn't been around for too long so he hasn't gotten a chance to match all the rings you won before him..oh, wait. Don't come in here talking about how your system is better than ours or our players do and don't do this and that when you've won just as many rings as we have. By that logic, I can come to your board and talk about how your roster is LeBron plus a bunch of under-talented, slow, flop-happy meatballs. No wonder LeBron wants to escape the Cleveland hell since they won't surround him with anything better than an over-the-hill Shaq and a "pretty good" point guard.

Our "under talented" scrubs smoked your high octane super duper star team last week, how many points did Lebron score? We have a great team, you will see. It took a little bit of time to get the pieces to understand how to play together, but it is coming together--we are FAR better than last years team. How many teams in the league can boast having THREE starters from a 66 win team coming off the BENCH!!

[Miklo]

Looking back at my previous post I would like to retract what I said about your website. You can't knock entrepreneurship.

I majored in Finance and Sports Management so you're definitely wrong about me having an aversion to, or not understanding, statistics. I'm a statistics nut. During college I even messed around with creating my own metrics for the NBA. I just don't think you need to pull out the stat book and say "well Hickson makes 1/15 of what Amar'e is but does 1/4 as much"..you're abusing statistics there. Also, I agree that efficiency stats are the ish, but they are LARGELY tied to the system, your surroundings, etc.

I never claimed we are a "high octane super duper team"..we're not. We're not really contending this year, and you can quote me on that. But I stand by what I said; you're gonna have to do better than an old irrelevant Shaq and an above-average point guard to please LBJ.

And your claim that your FO asked LeBron about Amar'e, so he must have said no because he's not on your team - I think you know how ridiculous that is. Nobody actually lets their players make final personnel decisions and even if he said yes there is a huge feasibility issue there. I'm sure LeBron would love DWade and Durant on his team but are they on it? No. Because even if he asked for them, there are lots of considerations to make there.

I LOL'ed at you agreeing that "Andy" should be a perennial allstar - that part was the part I thought you would laugh WITH me about. Oops

[grumpysaddle]

any trade to any team that involves amar'e and doesn't involve david lee coming to the suns, i don't want to read anything about. (maybe bosh, cause they are both more consistent than amar'e)

[JohnVancouver]

any trade to any team that involves amar'e and doesn't involve david lee coming to the suns, i don't want to read anything about. (maybe bosh, cause they are both more consistent than amar'e)

For the last time, I promise, I'm going to say that I really like the idea of Lee, Chandler and ECurry for Stat, Tuck and Griff.

I would bet Curry would look good here, our trainers could get him healthy, he's a large expiring after this year - same as Amar'e - and would provide some inside defensive presence and boards. So what I'm saying is - we could live with Curry for as long as we have to and he likely would not hurt us either on the court or financially. What we do get is Lee and Chandler. Both bargains and they would both be great in our system

NY would be happy to have Stat - my only worry is that they might not want him to exercise his option next year

[Mujahydeen]

I would bet Curry would look good here, our trainers could get him healthy, he's a large expiring after this year - same as Amar'e - and would provide some inside defensive presence and boards.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT???

Excuse me for that ;]

Eddy Curry is much poorer rebounder than Amare and you probably won't find more pathetic defensive big man in this universe (Zach Randolph is the closest one).

[thamadkant]

any trade to any team that involves amar'e and doesn't involve david lee coming to the suns, i don't want to read anything about. (maybe bosh, cause they are both more consistent than amar'e)

For the last time, I promise, I'm going to say that I really like the idea of Lee, Chandler and ECurry for Stat, Tuck and Griff.

I would bet Curry would look good here, our trainers could get him healthy, he's a large expiring after this year - same as Amar'e - and would provide some inside defensive presence and boards. So what I'm saying is - we could live with Curry for as long as we have to and he likely would not hurt us either on the court or financially. What we do get is Lee and Chandler. Both bargains and they would both be great in our system

NY would be happy to have Stat - my only worry is that they might not want him to exercise his option next year

Yeah I see Curry playing "well" under the Suns system.

He has good inside offense moves.

Lee and Chandler are the energy guys, basically better versions of Amundson and Dudley. Except Dudley can actually play SG because he can hit the open 3s.

Suns out: Stoudemire + Barbosa
Suns in: Curry + Lee + Chandler + 2012 first round pick (top 3 lottery protected)

C: Frye/Lopez/Curry
F: Lee/Curry/Amundson
F: Hill/Chandler/Dudley
G: Richardson/Chandler/Dudley
G: Nash/Dragic

[Frank Lee]

Can we just rename this ... as 'The THREAD THAT WOULDN'T DIE


JohnnVC packing the powder and the MadKantor lighting the fuse.... careful what you wish for fellas

[SportsInfoBar]

Looking back at my previous post I would like to retract what I said about your website. You can't knock entrepreneurship.

I majored in Finance and Sports Management so you're definitely wrong about me having an aversion to, or not understanding, statistics. I'm a statistics nut. During college I even messed around with creating my own metrics for the NBA. I just don't think you need to pull out the stat book and say "well Hickson makes 1/15 of what Amar'e is but does 1/4 as much"..you're abusing statistics there. Also, I agree that efficiency stats are the ish, but they are LARGELY tied to the system, your surroundings, etc.

I never claimed we are a "high octane super duper team"..we're not. We're not really contending this year, and you can quote me on that. But I stand by what I said; you're gonna have to do better than an old irrelevant Shaq and an above-average point guard to please LBJ.

And your claim that your FO asked LeBron about Amar'e, so he must have said no because he's not on your team - I think you know how ridiculous that is. Nobody actually lets their players make final personnel decisions and even if he said yes there is a huge feasibility issue there. I'm sure LeBron would love DWade and Durant on his team but are they on it? No. Because even if he asked for them, there are lots of considerations to make there.

I LOL'ed at you agreeing that "Andy" should be a perennial allstar - that part was the part I thought you would laugh WITH me about. Oops

If you read back through the posts, the only reason I brought up what Amare made verse Hickson is because someone else said Lou made 1/10th what Andy made....

And I know Andy is not an All-star--I was just messin with you on that part

I won't get into how I know the front office consulted Lebron on Amare, but it was done and he really was not that fond of Amare's game and attitude...Lebron really wants to team up with Bosh instead....and I think there is a good chance he does bolt, most Cavs fans don't agree with me, but the writing is on the wall to me. We will see though.

[heathmalc]

Damn, I wish I never started this thread.

Sorry guys!


Good Luck Phoenix...I hope you guys kill the Lakers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[JohnVancouver]

any trade to any team that involves amar'e and doesn't involve david lee coming to the suns, i don't want to read anything about. (maybe bosh, cause they are both more consistent than amar'e)

For the last time, I promise, I'm going to say that I really like the idea of Lee, Chandler and ECurry for Stat, Tuck and Griff.

I would bet Curry would look good here, our trainers could get him healthy, he's a large expiring after this year - same as Amar'e - and would provide some inside defensive presence and boards. So what I'm saying is - we could live with Curry for as long as we have to and he likely would not hurt us either on the court or financially. What we do get is Lee and Chandler. Both bargains and they would both be great in our system

NY would be happy to have Stat - my only worry is that they might not want him to exercise his option next year

Yeah I see Curry playing "well" under the Suns system.

He has good inside offense moves.

Lee and Chandler are the energy guys, basically better versions of Amundson and Dudley. Except Dudley can actually play SG because he can hit the open 3s.

Suns out: Stoudemire + Barbosa
Suns in: Curry + Lee + Chandler + 2012 first round pick (top 3 lottery protected)

C: Frye/Lopez/Curry
F: Lee/Curry/Amundson
F: Hill/Chandler/Dudley
G: Richardson/Chandler/Dudley
G: Nash/Dragic

--- My reasoning e: Fat Ed, is that once upon a time he really looked like he could be something - kinda like Frye. I agree that he is not much defensively but on the other hand, neither is Stat. And we get lee and Chandler. Lee certainly helps defensively/rebounding-wise.
But that's my pet absurd trade. I will now stop talking about it.

[JMac1]

Suns Get:

Ronny Turiaf
Anthony Randolph
Monta Ellis

Warriors Get:

Amare Stoudemire
Earl Clark

MAKE IT HAPPEN

Randolph is an overhyped Poosie! No Thanks. I would rather role with Clark, for the time being.

[GrapeApe]

Cleveland gets:
Amare Stoudemire
Leandro Barbosa

Phoenix gets:
Zydrunas Ilgauskas (with agreement to buy him out so he can go back to Cavs and retire with Cleveland)
Anthony Parker (Next year is not guaranteed)
Anderson Varejao
2010 1st round pick (unprotected)
2011 2nd round pick (unprotected)
Cash (to buy out Ilgauskas)

Worst trade ever. We already have one sideshow Bob, we need another? That first rounder might as well be a second rounder. Ughhhhhhhhhhhh

Robin would be sideshow Mel.

The right move would be to switch those pics. Make the 2011 pick the first as it will be a lot more valuable once Labron is playing in NY.