285 - Jones/Gane, Valentina, Rakhmonov, Bo Nickal

[Headliner]

Jones is smart, he might be a terrible person, but he's smart. I think his legacy as the GOAT means more to him than money. He watched Khabib walk away early with, arguably the weakest resume in terms of fights of all the names that guys through into the GOAT category, and he watched DC, who was arguably the GOAT candidate right before his loss to Stipe, fall from grace dramatically in that conversation.

Personally, I think he wants Stipe, then he's out. The only enticing fight after Stipe might be Blaydes, just so he can say he beat everyone Francis did, because I doubt the Francis fight ever happens.


I could be completely wrong, but im just a random dude on a message board lol.

[cowboyronnie]

Jones is smart, he might be a terrible person, but he's smart. I think his legacy as the GOAT means more to him than money. He watched Khabib walk away early with, arguably the weakest resume in terms of fights of all the names that guys through into the GOAT category, and he watched DC, who was arguably the GOAT candidate right before his loss to Stipe, fall from grace dramatically in that conversation.

Personally, I think he wants Stipe, then he's out. The only enticing fight after Stipe might be Blaydes, just so he can say he beat everyone Francis did, because I doubt the Francis fight ever happens.


I could be completely wrong, but im just a random dude on a message board lol.

LOL. In what way could "him watching" Khabib walk away with the resume he has inform Jon's own decisions? Jon's the GOAT, Khabib is not. How is Khabib - a retired fighter - relevant? Or even a cautionary tale?

You're **** obsessed dude.

[Dupp]

I dunno if anyone has rewatched but Cyril was atrocious. His “defence” on the ground and against the choke was never done any bjj or wrestling level.

[Clav]

I don't think Aspinall and Jon are going to have the time for them to overlap, but he honestly looks like the best package at heavyweight. I think he looks like a more dynamic evolution of Stipe. Hope his recovery goes well.

Brunson is so sloppy when there is any sign of fatigue. It's like his bones lose their density and become jelly. It's strange that he's beaten some good fighters. He looks like he has 0 balance and his equilibrium is literally broken, his own facial expressions look like a guy that is like "how did I even get in here?" It's wild. Duplessis should be going back home and looking in the mirror and saying, I have a lot of work to do to start fighting the top 5 in this division. I can't picture any way he puts up any fight vs Poatan, Adesanya, Whittaker, Vettori, Costa, etc. I know confidence helps, but you have to be realistic here lol.

I thought Shavkat's submission was crazy, what do we even call that? It was a bully choke I guess? It seems like Neal should have been able to turn into that, but Shavkat probably has a ridiculous squeeze, he left literally no space between their bodies, and towards the end of it started to literally lift him onto his toes where he couldn't turn, and I know there was a ton of fatigue at that point. Geoff Neal looks great too, it will get lost because of how good Rakhmonov is, but that dude is an animal.

Bo Nickal looked a little bit awkward, but the ease of which he went through the grappling motions was impressive. Even when he was putting the arm triangle on, it seemed like it was almost no effort and no energy expended to do any of it.

I know we had very little time to glean anything meaningful, but it did look like Jon was close enough to Ciryl's speed that Gane was a little tentative, and the length of his limbs just made him basically fill the ring up even compared to another huge guy. Gane looked more wary than he did against Francis, but I guess that is a lot to do with familiarity of training together and it being a pure striker.

I think that quote posted above is spot on. Even if he fights guys that might be faster or more explosive, none of these guys are in his ballpark in terms of fluidity of movement. He just maneuvers and moves around in ways they cannot, even if they can sprint better or whatever. The heavyweights don't have a shot in hell tbh. Stipe is fun because he's well rounded and a GOAT at his class, and Francis is a terror and a titan. But the rest of them are going to get rolled over. I think Jones or prime DC could honestly easily grapple **** everyone that's here right now easily. I think even Blaydes would get drained out by either of them early and end up getting wrestled.

Stipe at his peak isn't as talented as Jon IMO, but this version's last 4 fights has been Vicious KO, 4 round war, 5 round war, vicious KO. He's gotten older and a little smaller in every fight since he beat Francis. Feels like it might be a runaway, but it does feel necessary without Francis in the fold.

Nice recap man. I agree on your HW analysis. There's just very little that the division offers Jones after the top 3 to 4 guys, and really he would be waiting for other contenders to fight it out beneath him to have the chance to be a major underdog in any title challenge. You say Aspinall, that's a nice pick after Stipe. I want to keep my eye on Jailton Almeida who is on a win streak too.

Here's a few other things I noticed from the other fights on the card if you care to read:

Tabatha Ricci looked pretty good in her strawweight submission, she moved into armbar with excellent roll. Only one loss on her and it's vs Fiorot.

Derek Brunson is going to need time off after his brutal fight, the cast was talking about his potential rise to a title fight. No way, he would get 1R KOd vs Pereira, plus this loss, yikes. The fight should've been called though earlier, Herb just let him take massive shots.

Du Plessis? He has major holes in his game. I think him vs Costa makes sense, but Costa is kind of on the outs with the UFC, I would think Costa wins that fight though. Fun fight though, Dricus just kept going forward.

Garbrandt-Jones was disappointing, nothing impressed me. He was just as patient as the other guy [who looked happy to stand and feint and light jab], I hate fights like this where both guys stand and posture and feint for 12 minutes and then try to fight for 3 minutes of the entire 3 rounds, just sad. I'd cut Jones immediately.

Nikal like you said looked a bit awkward. He threw that weird punch or kick and stumbled and basically jumped right into a take down, and to his credit he got a 1R submission by just out wrestling Pickett but he should fight a guy next with some more cred on the ground game and sees how he fares.

Shavkat really impressed me and the guys that were over to watch the fights with me. Neal missing weight looked to impact the fight but despite major punches connecting for both guys Shavkat was unstoppable in the end. Man, that was FOTN for sure. Bully choke sounds good to me lol

Shevchenko I thought was fighting well fight in general, but it was still close. I had the fight as 2-1 Valentina in that 4th round, but I think Grasso was winning the 4th before she jumped on the back. I have to give Grasso props, that was a huge moment and she played it perfectly. It's refreshing to have a new champion at flyweight here!

Jones is dominant, pretty insane. Gane threw a few punches and kicks but nothing seemed to bother Jones and then on the ground it was like nothing. Gane was trying to feel it out and there was just no chance for him to succeed unless it was dancing around the cage for 2 rounds dodging takedowns.

Jones even said the standup was a bit weird for him after so many years off but it didn't really matter, I think he would've still found range eventually.

[Susan]

Gotta say - while Bo's finish of the arm triangle wasn't swift, his backtake was absolutely elite and beautiful. He was methodical with the arm triangle and knew he had time which I'd take 10/10 over being in a rush for a finish and overcommitting himself. Super high on him after Saturday.

[Dupp]

The knee to the groin to lead into the takedown was a high iq move too

[Clav]

The knee to the groin to lead into the takedown was a high iq move too

Yeah and it's not really being talked about, Pickett is classy for not using it as an excuse for a loss (probably got paid just fine), Bo definitely got the benefit here from an uncalled low blow.


Just being honest though, I don't think Pickett was gonna out-wrestle Bo, once it was on the ground it was going to be sub or something bad for Pickett. The eventuality of the match was in Bo's favour. The thing though, the referee has the ability to either take a point or DQ for a low blow, and it wasn't called. Bo dodged a bullet and he's gotta be sharper in the future.

[NO-KG-AI]

The knee to the groin to lead into the takedown was a high iq move too

Yeah and it's not really being talked about, Pickett is classy for not using it as an excuse for a loss (probably got paid just fine), Bo definitely got the benefit here from an uncalled low blow.


Just being honest though, I don't think Pickett was gonna out-wrestle Bo, once it was on the ground it was going to be sub or something bad for Pickett. The eventuality of the match was in Bo's favour. The thing though, the referee has the ability to either take a point or DQ for a low blow, and it wasn't called. Bo dodged a bullet and he's gotta be sharper in the future.

I think Pickett is trying to get the commission to overturn the victory lol.

I honestly didn't see it at full speed, but saw Pickett's face and said he made the face like a ball shot happened.

[Headliner]

Jones is smart, he might be a terrible person, but he's smart. I think his legacy as the GOAT means more to him than money. He watched Khabib walk away early with, arguably the weakest resume in terms of fights of all the names that guys through into the GOAT category, and he watched DC, who was arguably the GOAT candidate right before his loss to Stipe, fall from grace dramatically in that conversation.

Personally, I think he wants Stipe, then he's out. The only enticing fight after Stipe might be Blaydes, just so he can say he beat everyone Francis did, because I doubt the Francis fight ever happens.


I could be completely wrong, but im just a random dude on a message board lol.

LOL. In what way could "him watching" Khabib walk away with the resume he has inform Jon's own decisions? Jon's the GOAT, Khabib is not. How is Khabib - a retired fighter - relevant? Or even a cautionary tale?

You're **** obsessed dude.

Juxtapose Khabib with DC, and you see the point.
Khabib has the aura of being unbeatable around him, even though his resume isn’t in the league of other goat candidates, or title defensives. DC, who also was a goat candidate took an L and that talk was over. People were willing to forgive the Jones losses because of the PED accusations surrounding him, but the Stipe one? No way.

When you are measuring all time greatness you are hyper aware of those in the conversation and the narratives.

The point is it’s better to walk away on top, even if you feel like you haven’t cleared the division or done enough, than it is destroy a murders row but take an L to someone, even if that someone is another goat candidate (Stipe) or worse, not a goat candidate (Blaydes)

[Susan]

Jones is smart, he might be a terrible person, but he's smart. I think his legacy as the GOAT means more to him than money. He watched Khabib walk away early with, arguably the weakest resume in terms of fights of all the names that guys through into the GOAT category, and he watched DC, who was arguably the GOAT candidate right before his loss to Stipe, fall from grace dramatically in that conversation.

Personally, I think he wants Stipe, then he's out. The only enticing fight after Stipe might be Blaydes, just so he can say he beat everyone Francis did, because I doubt the Francis fight ever happens.


I could be completely wrong, but im just a random dude on a message board lol.

LOL. In what way could "him watching" Khabib walk away with the resume he has inform Jon's own decisions? Jon's the GOAT, Khabib is not. How is Khabib - a retired fighter - relevant? Or even a cautionary tale?

You're **** obsessed dude.

Juxtapose Khabib with DC, and you see the point.
Khabib has the aura of being unbeatable around him, even though his resume isn’t in the league of other goat candidates, or title defensives. DC, who also was a goat candidate took an L and that talk was over. People were willing to forgive the Jones losses because of the PED accusations surrounding him, but the Stipe one? No way.

When you are measuring all time greatness you are hyper aware of those in the conversation and the narratives.

The point is it’s better to walk away on top, even if you feel like you haven’t cleared the division or done enough, than it is destroy a murders row but take an L to someone, even if that someone is another goat candidate (Stipe) or worse, not a goat candidate (Blaydes)

People still mention Fedor and Anderson Silva in GOAT discussions.

Father time remains undefeated, anybody with any semblance of history understands that when talking about the GOAT in MMA.

Jones has been at the top of his division since 2011 and must watch since 2009. Khabib came and went in the time that Jones has been around and Jones is looking like he's got a bit of life left at HW now too - but it'll end at some point and that won't diminish his greatness at all. He was a good 15-25 years ahead of his time at LHW - there legit hasn't been anything remotely like him ever.

[Gregoire]

Jones is smart, he might be a terrible person, but he's smart. I think his legacy as the GOAT means more to him than money. He watched Khabib walk away early with, arguably the weakest resume in terms of fights of all the names that guys through into the GOAT category, and he watched DC, who was arguably the GOAT candidate right before his loss to Stipe, fall from grace dramatically in that conversation.

Personally, I think he wants Stipe, then he's out. The only enticing fight after Stipe might be Blaydes, just so he can say he beat everyone Francis did, because I doubt the Francis fight ever happens.


I could be completely wrong, but im just a random dude on a message board lol.

LOL. In what way could "him watching" Khabib walk away with the resume he has inform Jon's own decisions? Jon's the GOAT, Khabib is not. How is Khabib - a retired fighter - relevant? Or even a cautionary tale?

You're **** obsessed dude.

Khabib is not near GOAT contender. DC too. They are 8-10 all-time range. Jones, Fedor, Andy, GSP, Aldo, Volk, Cruz, DJ, Stipe, maybe Usman all have better resume.

[REDDzone]

It's pretty nuts that Khabib was ever in this conversation. I am pretty "out" of the mma sphere these days in terms of consuming media but my perception is that him ever being in the discussion was just a blip due to how high on him that people were at the time. I don't feel like anyone seriously thinks he's in the conversation with Jones, GSP, etc. These guys have more title defenses than he has UFC fights lol.

Khabib is probably the most dominant fighter of all time. Rarely if ever lost a round.

Jones is the GOAT. The most talented fighter ever but also put the results together. Beat literally everyone.

GSP is the guy you turn to if the steroids thing bothers you about Jones. Two titles and the most dominant run in the best division in the sport, and he avenged both of his losses.

[cowboyronnie]

Khabib is probably the most dominant fighter of all time. Rarely if ever lost a round.

Jones is the GOAT. The most talented fighter ever but also put the results together. Beat literally everyone.

GSP is the guy you turn to if the steroids thing bothers you about Jones. Two titles and the most dominant run in the best division in the sport, and he avenged both of his losses.

That lays it out nicely.

I don't even see why you have to decide which one of these three is the GOAT, as they each have distinct qualities.

Khabib smushed everyone. He wasn't ever even seriously at risk or challenged - wipeouts against legit names in Dustin, Conor, JG, and more. He coasted to the point that he could apologize to opponents while smashing them and give up a joint submission for a choke out of humane concern (against JG). That's a level of dominance no one else ever had. But it was way brief in comparison.

Jones has a level of innate gift unmatched by anyone and is undefeated, and looks like he might make a run +40 pounds from where he started. He also has savage finish after savage finish. Then again, I think he ducked Francis.

GSP, as you say, went a long time proving he was the best fighter in the best division. But he lacks Jon's mastery and finishing abilities. Jabbing with Jake Shields for 5 rounds and failing to finish Dan Hardy, and so on. Jones is a cold-hearted psycho, brimming with self-belief, and otherwise psychologically able to go for the finish in a way that GSP was not. *7* UDs to finish his career.

I don't know how you chose, other than to wait for Jon to simply take it,

[Jasen777]

Khabib may have never been at risk but he should have lost that decision to Tibau.

[REDDzone]

Khabib may have never been at risk but he should have lost that decision to Tibau.

Mmadecisions.com was barely a thing at the time but fwiw that site backs this claim up.

[NO-KG-AI]

The thing about Khabib’s record is that it’s not unprecedented dominance. Khabib has 13 fights in his UFC career. Jon’s 14th fight was Gustaffson. If you take his first 13 and have him retire at Chael Sonnen, he leaves the sport basically unscratched, with Vitor Belfort’s arm bar being the only danger he ever faced at all(akin to Michael Johnson stunning Khabib I suppose). Gusstafson was supposed to be another easy win for Jones too, much like people think any challenger would have been for Khabib. But the longer you stay, the tougher it gets. Silva has 8 straight finishes to start his UFC run, 7 of them being in title fights. Khabib has 7 in his entire UFC career. Silva’s win streak includes more finishes than Khabib has total UFC fights.

I don’t think Khabib never having to go through adversity and gut out wins is a point in his favor in comparison to guys like Jones or GSP either.

I don’t think he’s done enough to even say he pushed guys like Silva, Mighty Mouse, Fedor, etc out of the top 5. 13 total fights, and almost half are like not even notable. It’s just too small of a sample for me, and I love Khabib. You stick around, you fight through poor camps and injuries, you keep defending wave after wave of top challenger, **** is gonna get rough. We never got to see how he responds to it. That’s a knock, not a feather in the cap.

[REDDzone]

^^ great post. Thanks.

[cowboyronnie]

Yeah, that's a good post.

I'd simply say I don't think any other fighter has had a trio of three title defenses as impressive as Khabib vs Conor, Poirier, and JG. Those are three battle-tested legends. In their prime. They didn't know what hit them.

The point about having to sustain that through your own injuries, issues, etc. is well taken. Jon and GSP have more GOAT cred.

[NO-KG-AI]

Yeah, that's a good post.

I'd simply say I don't think any other fighter has had a trio of three title defenses as impressive as Khabib vs Conor, Poirier, and JG. Those are three battle-tested legends. In their prime. They didn't know what hit them.

The point about having to sustain that through your own injuries, issues, etc. is well taken. Jon and GSP have more GOAT cred.

That is a damn good run, especially the level of dominance in those 3 fights, I can't think of a better 3 fight stretch in terms of dominance and strength of schedule. GSP right before the hiccup with Serra beat Sean Sherk, BJ Penn, and Matt Hughes. He didn't dominate the same, but damn that's a tough stretch.

Shout out to Sean Sherk btw. Doesn't get talked about much, but was 36-4, losing only to Matt Hughes, GSP, BJ Penn, and Frankie Edgar. When the worst loss of your 40 fight career is getting stopped by GSP or Penn, you had a great run.

[Dupp]

The thing was Khabib was only getting better and the gap between him and all the other lightweights was widening. He was a goat candidate but he just left way too soon and wasn’t active enough.

Had he stuck around he’d have another 3+ dominate title defenses right now. Then he would have moved up and tried to beat Leon and he’d have a much better claim. However none of that happened and it’s just projection. Also, the fall from grace can come pretty fast in mma. Khabib didn’t seem like that guy though.

There’s also the visual factor which plays into Khabib. Never knocked down, cut or even hurt. Plays into his dominance. Barely lost a round.