keep Brogdon, trade Simons?

ebott · Post #41 » by **ebott** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 4:57 am

I thought Brogdon looked Hella good at fan fest. If we keep him and trade Anferno for some front court help I think it.would help our team win more games this year.

Problem is, we're not looking to win games this year. We kinda wanna lose this year. But the 2024 draft doesn't have a clear #1 so it's not a big deal if we end up at the middle to end of the lottery.

But we REALLY wanna lose next year. Sag for Flagg is a real thing that really happens.

I could see us just keeping everyone we have on the team right now and really doing our best to win this season and then having another fire sale next off-season so we can Sag for Flagg.

BlazersBroncos · Post #42 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 2:05 pm

To Raptors: Simons + Small value (SRP?)

To Bulls: Boucher + Thad + Small value (SRP?)

To Blazers: Ball + Dick + Terry + 24 Blaz 1st (returned)

TOR upgrades their lead guard spot.
CHI gets off Ball's contract.
PDX unclogs their guard rotation + gets 2 swings at SF's in Dick and Terry + FRP returned to open future trades + who knows maybe Ball bounces back in which case he is basically the absolute ideal 3rd guard in a Scoot / Sharpe rotation.

G - Scoot Henderson / Malcolm Brogdan
G - Shadeon Sharpe / Malcolm Brogdan / Dalen Terry
F - Matisse Thybulle / Gradey Dick / Rayan Rupert
F - Jerami Grant / Kris Murray / Toumara Camara
C - DeAndre Ayton / Robert Williams / Jabari Walker JR

IR Ball

tester551 · Post #43 » by **tester551** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 3:49 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:To Raptors: Simons + Small value (SRP?)

To Bulls: Boucher + Thad + Small value (SRP?)

To Blazers: Ball + Dick + Terry + 24 Blaz 1st (returned)

TOR upgrades their lead guard spot.
CHI gets off Ball's contract.
PDX unclogs their guard rotation + gets 2 swings at SF's in Dick and Terry + FRP returned to open future trades + who knows maybe Ball bounces back in which case he is basically the absolute ideal 3rd guard in a Scoot / Sharpe rotation.

G - Scoot Henderson / Malcolm Brogdan
G - Shadeon Sharpe / Malcolm Brogdan / Dalen Terry
F - Matisse Thybulle / Gradey Dick / Rayan Rupert
F - Jerami Grant / Kris Murray / Toumara Camara
C - DeAndre Ayton / Robert Williams / Jabari Walker JR

IR Ball

Better suggestion...

To Raptors: Simons
To Blazers: OG

BlazersBroncos · Post #44 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 4:09 pm

tester551 wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:To Raptors: Simons + Small value (SRP?)

To Bulls: Boucher + Thad + Small value (SRP?)

To Blazers: Ball + Dick + Terry + 24 Blaz 1st (returned)

TOR upgrades their lead guard spot.
CHI gets off Ball's contract.
PDX unclogs their guard rotation + gets 2 swings at SF's in Dick and Terry + FRP returned to open future trades + who knows maybe Ball bounces back in which case he is basically the absolute ideal 3rd guard in a Scoot / Sharpe rotation.

G - Scoot Henderson / Malcolm Brogdan
G - Shadeon Sharpe / Malcolm Brogdan / Dalen Terry
F - Matisse Thybulle / Gradey Dick / Rayan Rupert
F - Jerami Grant / Kris Murray / Toumara Camara
C - DeAndre Ayton / Robert Williams / Jabari Walker JR

IR Ball

Better suggestion...

To Raptors: Simons
To Blazers: OG

Raps dont do that. Its been made clear they have a tremendous evaluation on OG.

tester551 · Post #45 » by **tester551** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 6:30 pm

BlazersBroncos wrote:
tester551 wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:To Raptors: Simons + Small value (SRP?)

To Bulls: Boucher + Thad + Small value (SRP?)

To Blazers: Ball + Dick + Terry + 24 Blaz 1st (returned)

TOR upgrades their lead guard spot.
CHI gets off Ball's contract.
PDX unclogs their guard rotation + gets 2 swings at SF's in Dick and Terry + FRP returned to open future trades + who knows maybe Ball bounces back in which case he is basically the absolute ideal 3rd guard in a Scoot / Sharpe rotation.

G - Scoot Henderson / Malcolm Brogdan
G - Shadeon Sharpe / Malcolm Brogdan / Dalen Terry
F - Matisse Thybulle / Gradey Dick / Rayan Rupert
F - Jerami Grant / Kris Murray / Toumara Camara
C - DeAndre Ayton / Robert Williams / Jabari Walker JR

IR Ball

Better suggestion...

To Raptors: Simons
To Blazers: OG

Raps dont do that. Its been made clear they have a tremendous evaluation on OG.

I bet they will in February when it's clear to the Raptors that they either trade him or OG walks away for nothing....

BlazersBroncos · Post #46 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 6:38 pm

tester551 wrote:
BlazersBroncos wrote:
tester551 wrote:Better suggestion...

To Raptors: Simons
To Blazers: OG

Raps dont do that. Its been made clear they have a tremendous evaluation on OG.

I bet they will in February when it's clear to the Raptors that they either trade him or OG walks away for nothing....

I think they take a pick package in that case over Simons. I really dont think Ant has close to OG value. More like a pick in the early 20s value IMHO.

Even in my trade idea I am thinking TOR wouldnt move Dick for him. Short SG that score and do little else are just not highly valued.

Wizenheimer · Post #47 » by **Wizenheimer** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 7:19 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Again, not defending Ant specifically, it's just an element I think is generally lost when people bring up efficiency is that you cannot just create uber-efficient shots all game long at will and so one needs to figure out how to generate as many efficient shots as possible, knowing that often you will have to strategically settle for some volume of less efficient shots because sometimes defense's do their job.

point noted. I guess I just assumed you were at least implying something about Ant since it's a Brogdan vs Ant thread

and it's true that an offense can't over-rely on just one or two offensive components. They need good options A, B, C. D, E

the only reliable factor is high-end talent. And some of that high-end talent needs to be real good at one-and-one offense. Schemes can be defended a lot easier than elite one-on-one players, as long as there are more than one elite player on a roster

Portland had an iso-heavy offense under Stotts. But starting in Dame's 2nd season, Portland's offensive ratings ranked: 2nd-9th-6th-11th-15th-3rd-3rd-2nd. Then cratered when Dame was injured

the problem was Portland was way too reliant on Dame's one-on-one ability and never could add a 2nd elite threat

zzaj · Post #48 » by **zzaj** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 7:31 pm

Wizenheimer wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Again, not defending Ant specifically, it's just an element I think is generally lost when people bring up efficiency is that you cannot just create uber-efficient shots all game long at will and so one needs to figure out how to generate as many efficient shots as possible, knowing that often you will have to strategically settle for some volume of less efficient shots because sometimes defense's do their job.

point noted. I guess I just assumed you were at least implying something about Ant since it's a Brogdan vs Ant thread

and it's true that an offense can't over-rely on just one or two offensive components. They need good options A, B, C. D, E

the only reliable factor is high-end talent. And some of that high-end talent needs to be real good at one-and-one offense. Schemes can be defended a lot easier than elite one-on-one players, as long as there are more than one elite player on a roster

Portland had an iso-heavy offense under Stotts. But starting in Dame's 2nd season, Portland's offensive ratings ranked: 2nd-9th-6th-11th-15th-3rd-3rd-2nd. Then cratered when Dame was injured

the problem was Portland was way too reliant on Dame's one-on-one ability and never could add a 2nd elite threat

Curious where you got those offensive ratings, Wiz...and what the defensive ratings were during those years. Because, at least my sense was that rather than a second elite offensive threat, the team could never get above average defensively...but I may be mixing up my years there.

Post #49 » by **DeBlazerRiddem** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:00 pm

zzaj wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
Again, not defending Ant specifically, it's just an element I think is generally lost when people bring up efficiency is that you cannot just create uber-efficient shots all game long at will and so one needs to figure out how to generate as many efficient shots as possible, knowing that often you will have to strategically settle for some volume of less efficient shots because sometimes defense's do their job.

point noted. I guess I just assumed you were at least implying something about Ant since it's a Brogdan vs Ant thread

and it's true that an offense can't over-rely on just one or two offensive components. They need good options A, B, C. D, E

the only reliable factor is high-end talent. And some of that high-end talent needs to be real good at one-and-one offense. Schemes can be defended a lot easier than elite one-on-one players, as long as there are more than one elite player on a roster

Portland had an iso-heavy offense under Stotts. But starting in Dame's 2nd season, Portland's offensive ratings ranked: 2nd-9th-6th-11th-15th-3rd-3rd-2nd. Then cratered when Dame was injured

the problem was Portland was way too reliant on Dame's one-on-one ability and never could add a 2nd elite threat

Curious where you got those offensive ratings, Wiz...and what the defensive ratings were during those years. Because, at least my sense was that rather than a second elite offensive threat, the team could never get above average defensively...but I may be mixing up my years there.

I don't think you are wrong about the defense in general holding us back, but regarding the offense my sense was that we were generally fine during the season with Lillard but in the post-season was where our lack of a second option really hurt us.

I am not sure how technical the below numbers are but shows what I mean in at least in a relative sense:

13/14 - 2nd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 8th out of 16 for offense in post season
14/15 - 8th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season
15/16 - 6th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 6th out of 16 for offense in post season
16/17 - 11th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 16th out of 16 for offense in post season
17/18 - 14th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season
18/19 - 3rd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 8th out of 16 for offense in post season
19/20 - 3rd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season

(I cut off 20/21 because it doesn't support my point but here they are

20/21 - 2nd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 1st out of 16 for offense in post season - yay we finally posted a better offense but still lost in the first round)

zzaj · Post #50 » by **zzaj** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 8:45 pm

DeBlazerRiddem wrote:
zzaj wrote:
Wizenheimer wrote:
point noted. I guess I just assumed you were at least implying something about Ant since it's a Brogdan vs Ant thread

and it's true that an offense can't over-rely on just one or two offensive components. They need good options A, B, C. D, E

the only reliable factor is high-end talent. And some of that high-end talent needs to be real good at one-and-one offense. Schemes can be defended a lot easier than elite one-on-one players, as long as there are more than one elite player on a roster

Portland had an iso-heavy offense under Stotts. But starting in Dame's 2nd season, Portland's offensive ratings ranked: 2nd-9th-6th-11th-15th-3rd-3rd-2nd. Then cratered when Dame was injured

the problem was Portland was way too reliant on Dame's one-on-one ability and never could add a 2nd elite threat

Curious where you got those offensive ratings, Wiz...and what the defensive ratings were during those years. Because, at least my sense was that rather than a second elite offensive threat, the team could never get above average defensively...but I may be mixing up my years there.

I don't think you are wrong about the defense in general holding us back, but regarding the offense my sense was that we were generally fine during the season with Lillard but in the post-season was where our lack of a second option really hurt us.

I am not sure how technical the below numbers are but shows what I mean in at least in a relative sense:

13/14 - 2nd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 8th out of 16 for offense in post season
14/15 - 8th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season
15/16 - 6th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 6th out of 16 for offense in post season
16/17 - 11th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 16th out of 16 for offense in post season
17/18 - 14th out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season
18/19 - 3rd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 8th out of 16 for offense in post season
19/20 - 3rd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 12th out of 16 for offense in post season

(I cut off 20/21 because it doesn't support my point but here they are
20/21 - 2nd out of 30 for offense in regular season, 1st out of 16 for offense in post season - yay we finally posted a better offense but still lost in the first round)

Yeah, clearly the Blazers ran into PO level defense in the POs who were able to shut down Lillard and the lack of an elite second scorer was felt. I still am curious about the Blazer defensive metrics in those years though...and in the POs now that they are being mentioned.

Butter · Post #51 » by **Butter** » Mon Oct 9, 2023 9:59 pm

If the Blazers goal is developing Scoot, Brogdon is 100% a better option than Simmons. BUT, that is contingent on Brogdon's willingness to play the role of 6th man/mentor.

When he left Indy for Boston, it was championship or bust. That does not match up with the Blazers youth movement.

That's 100% my preference, but I don't think that's where Brogdons heart is, despite his PR comments.

Butter · Post #52 » by **Butter** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 12:11 am

I keep looking at the Magic for a potential trade. I really like Franz Wagner as a SF on this young Blazers team. Simons would be an excellent complimemt to Anthony Black.

Would there be any interest in something like this?

POR: Anfernee Simons
ORL: Franz Wagner; Markelle Fultz (1 yr remaining)

Portlands Depth Chart
PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon
SG: Shaedon Sharp, Markelle Fultz, Rayan Rupert
SF: Franz Wagner, Matisse Thybulle, Toumani Camara
PF: Jeremiah Grant, Jabari Walker, Kris Murray, Kevin Knox
C: DeAndre Ayton, Robert Williams, John Butler

JRoy · Post #53 » by **JRoy** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:08 am

Butter wrote:I keep looking at the Magic for a potential trade. I really like Franz Wagner as a SF on this young Blazers team. Simons would be an excellent complimemt to Anthony Black.

Would there be any interest in something like this?

POR: Anfernee Simons
ORL: Franz Wagner; Markelle Fultz (1 yr remaining)

Portlands Depth Chart
PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon
SG: Shaedon Sharp, Markelle Fultz, Rayan Rupert
SF: Franz Wagner, Matisse Thybulle, Toumani Camara
PF: Jeremiah Grant, Jabari Walker, Kris Murray, Kevin Knox
C: DeAndre Ayton, Robert Williams, John Butler

Very unlikely ORL agrees to that. ORL sees Wagner as a franchise cornerstone. Simons is one of many one way small shooting guards that will not change that opinion.

BlazersBroncos · Post #54 » by **BlazersBroncos** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:08 am

Franz is closer in value to Sharpe or Scoot than Simons. I have this as off by at least the GSW 24 FRP and either the MIL or BOS 29 UNP FRP. And even then I wouldnt do this if I was ORL.

I think there is a high chance Franz is a much better player than Sharpe long term.

Butter · Post #55 » by **Butter** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:41 am

JRoy wrote:
Butter wrote:I keep looking at the Magic for a potential trade. I really like Franz Wagner as a SF on this young Blazers team. Simons would be an excellent complimemt to Anthony Black.

Would there be any interest in something like this?

POR: Anfernee Simons
ORL: Franz Wagner; Markelle Fultz (1 yr remaining)

Portlands Depth Chart
PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon
SG: Shaedon Sharp, Markelle Fultz, Rayan Rupert
SF: Franz Wagner, Matisse Thybulle, Toumani Camara
PF: Jeremiah Grant, Jabari Walker, Kris Murray, Kevin Knox
C: DeAndre Ayton, Robert Williams, John Butler

Very unlikely ORL agrees to that. ORL sees Wagner as a franchise cornerstone. Simons is one of many one way small shooting guards that will not change that opinion.

Full transparency, I didn't really have a gauge on the Magic fans Wagner love until after I made that post.

I honestly didn't realize they viewed him as a franchise cornerstone.

Butter · Post #56 » by **Butter** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 1:44 am

BlazersBroncos wrote:Franz is closer in value to Sharpe or Scoot than Simons. I have this as off by at least the GSW 24 FRP and either the MIL or BOS 29 UNP FRP. And even then I wouldnt do this if I was ORL.

I think there is a high chance Franz is a much better player than Sharpe long term.

Personally, I'd be willing to throw in projected late round FRPs, but not Mil's.

Short version, I see a young SF as their primary need for upgrade. Maybe that comes from a future Grant trade, or the draft.

JRoy · Post #57 » by **JRoy** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:01 am

Butter wrote:
JRoy wrote:
Butter wrote:I keep looking at the Magic for a potential trade. I really like Franz Wagner as a SF on this young Blazers team. Simons would be an excellent complimemt to Anthony Black.

Would there be any interest in something like this?

POR: Anfernee Simons
ORL: Franz Wagner; Markelle Fultz (1 yr remaining)

Portlands Depth Chart
PG: Scoot Henderson, Malcolm Brogdon
SG: Shaedon Sharp, Markelle Fultz, Rayan Rupert
SF: Franz Wagner, Matisse Thybulle, Toumani Camara
PF: Jeremiah Grant, Jabari Walker, Kris Murray, Kevin Knox
C: DeAndre Ayton, Robert Williams, John Butler

Very unlikely ORL agrees to that. ORL sees Wagner as a franchise cornerstone. Simons is one of many one way small shooting guards that will not change that opinion.

Full transparency, I didn't really have a gauge on the Magic fans Wagner love until after I made that post.

I honestly didn't realize they viewed him as a franchise cornerstone.

I think ORL might be a good destination for Simons but not for Wagner.

Sorry for the bad news. I have pooped many a party.

Butter · Post #58 » by **Butter** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:04 am

JRoy wrote:
Butter wrote:
JRoy wrote:
Very unlikely ORL agrees to that. ORL sees Wagner as a franchise cornerstone. Simons is one of many one way small shooting guards that will not change that opinion.

Full transparency, I didn't really have a gauge on the Magic fans Wagner love until after I made that post.

I honestly didn't realize they viewed him as a franchise cornerstone.

I think ORL might be a good destination for Simons but not for Wagner.

Sorry for the bad news. I have pooped many a party.

Shifting gears.

Looking at potential prospects in the 2024 draft, there may be several options for a SF of the future. Maybe the Blazers just stick to best assets available?

Let's go Cronin, Flip City!!!

Butter · Post #59 » by **Butter** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:04 am

JRoy wrote:
Butter wrote:
JRoy wrote:
Very unlikely ORL agrees to that. ORL sees Wagner as a franchise cornerstone. Simons is one of many one way small shooting guards that will not change that opinion.

Full transparency, I didn't really have a gauge on the Magic fans Wagner love until after I made that post.

I honestly didn't realize they viewed him as a franchise cornerstone.

I think ORL might be a good destination for Simons but not for Wagner.

Sorry for the bad news. I have pooped many a party.

Shifting gears. I've been scanning current NBA depth charts. Are there any under the radar SFs who would fit with the Blazers timeline?

ALSO - Looking at potential prospects in the 2024 draft, there may be several options for a SF of the future. Maybe the Blazers just stick to best assets available?

Let's go Cronin, Flip City!!!

JRoy · Post #60 » by **JRoy** » Tue Oct 10, 2023 2:10 am

Butter wrote:
JRoy wrote:
Butter wrote:
Full transparency, I didn't really have a gauge on the Magic fans Wagner love until after I made that post.

I honestly didn't realize they viewed him as a franchise cornerstone.

I think ORL might be a good destination for Simons but not for Wagner.

Sorry for the bad news. I have pooped many a party.

Shifting gears. I've been scanning current NBA depth charts. Are there any under the radar SFs who would fit with the Blazers timeline?

ALSO - Looking at potential prospects in the 2024 draft, there may be several options for a SF of the future. Maybe the Blazers just stick to best assets available?

Let's go Cronin, Flip City!!!

It’s a good question. They’ll probably play Thybulle at sf, if I had to guess. At least until a more permanent solution can be found.