Bill Simmons - Dame is not the Blazer GOAT

[wco81]

Cites Walton and lays out the case for Clyde as having better legacies, though Lillard may already have the franchise scoring and assist records.

Also notes that Dame hasn't won the conference final whereas Walton obviously has and so did Drexler.

Says we can't get into believing the league only has mattered since Lebron entered the league so the players from before the last 20 years are under appreciated.


Hmm, there wasn't a salary cap back in those days so maybe it was harder for a smaller market team to compete. It's also a more competitive landscape now, though there was a rotation of champions in Walton's day but of course the Bulls dominated when Clyde was in his prime.

OTOH, talent level is greater now, especially with the influx of international players since the '70s to the '90s.

[DusterBuster]

Just so hard to really compare, you're talking guys 15-30 years apart. Walton in the late 70s, Clyde in the early 90's, Dame in 10's.

So yeah, who can say really? Walton and Clyde got their teams further but also had much better-supporting casts than anything Dame had (aside from maybe his first few years with Aldridge). I think as an individual talent, Dame was by far the most unique talent the Blazers have ever had. Clyde may have been better, if MJ never existed, we may talk about Drexler like we talk about Jordan... but you can play that same game with Dame and Curry. If Curry never existed, would Dame be talked about like Curry?

[b33nine]

Any answer to this question will always be influenced by emotions and what age you were when these players were on the team. Drexler was my guy when I was a little kid so he's always gonna seem like a way bigger deal to me, but it also crushed me that much more when he chose to go into the HoF as a Rocket. I know it was a way to turn his nose up at the Blazer's organization, but to me it feels like what it really does is punish the fans who idolized the player.

I know things are rocky right now with Dame, but fans will eventually get over it. I just hope he doesn't make the same choice when it's his time to go into the HoF and leave those wounds open for the fans to remember forever.

That said, gotta go Clyde.

[wco81]

Wow didn't realize Drexler did that.

He went to school in Houston so maybe he was from that area? Still seems like ungrateful to the fans.

[JasonStern]

Both Drexler and Dame spent ~11 seasons with Portland.

Drexler lead Portland to two Finals appearances and one year finished #2 in MVP voting.

Dame lead Portland to one Western Conference Finals appearance and has spent his career being a fringe top 10 player.

Given the timing of recent events, it seems like spite to put Drexler over Dame. But, when you step back and look at career accolades, Drexler is more deserving. And yes, there is a valid point that Drexler didn't have to deal with Neil Olshey as a GM. No argument there. And had Dame played out his contract and put up a few more all-star level seasons, he would have surpassed Drexler - even with the heel turn. But it doesn't seem like that's happening. Zero question that Dame isn't the best Blazer in the last 20 years, which is still an impressive feat.

Walton is a bit of a stretch. Greatest single season for a Blazer? Probably. Was well before I was born. But his tenure was far too brief to be considered the franchise GOAT. Top 3? Sure. The Blazers historically lack top tier talent.

Personally, I have Roy ahead of Walton. Probably an age thing. But Roy turned the franchise around when they bottomed out after the JailBlazers era.

Surprisingly, Aldridge rounds out the top 5 for me. Again, lack of top tier talent historically. But 9 seasons, multiple all-star and all-NBA appearances.

Hopefully we revisit this in a few years and Sharpe and Scoot are top 2-3.

[Norm2953]

It's got to be Clyde for still dominates the Blazer stats lists and is recognized as a top 50
all NBA player.

Dame is better shooter but Clyde has the advantage everywhere else.

[Moonbeam]

It always comes down to what you value. Walton may have the best season as a Blazer, while Clyde and Dame have more sustained greatness. Clyde was the leader of the tram when I became a Blazer fan in 1989. Stat wise, it’s pretty close between them. It’s hard to compare team success given how badly management failed Dame.

[zzaj]

It's really impossible to say because the NBA has changed so much. I feel like if you put Lillard on Clyde's team with a Porter level SG next to him, he would DOMINATE and that team would go far. I feel less so about Clyde in today's NBA on the Blazers for the last decade.

[FroButtons]

Just so hard to really compare, you're talking guys 15-30 years apart. Walton in the late 70s, Clyde in the early 90's, Dame in 10's.

So yeah, who can say really? Walton and Clyde got their teams further but also had much better-supporting casts than anything Dame had (aside from maybe his first few years with Aldridge). I think as an individual talent, Dame was by far the most unique talent the Blazers have ever had. Clyde may have been better, if MJ never existed, we may talk about Drexler like we talk about Jordan... but you can play that same game with Dame and Curry. If Curry never existed, would Dame be talked about like Curry?

Dang. This is a fantastic comparison/analogy.

[8thseed 4ever]

Walton for me, it’s a shame he didn’t play for us longer but when he did it was magical. That 76-77 team feed off his unselfish play and getting the whole team involved.

[ebott]

Walton for me, it’s a shame he didn’t play for us longer but when he did it was magical. That 76-77 team feed off his unselfish play and getting the whole team involved.

I concur. I also think if the Blazers ever win another championship, the best player on that team should be recognized as the greatest Blazer of all time.

[DeBlazerRiddem]

Dame would have had a shot with longevity and accumulated stats and involvement in the community even if his peak wasn't as high as the other two but he would have had to spend at least another 3-4 seasons in Portland to justify nominating him on his extensive body of work rather than the heights or moments of greatness achieved and even then it would be controversial against winning an actual championship here (hard to beat that). He did give us some of the most amazing moments of at least the last 2 or 3 decades but he is a few shy of locking up this particular honor.

[Tim Lehrbach]

Any of the three is a good answer for different reasons, but I'm still team Dame. He ran his mouth a bit too much about loyalty and doing things the hard way, and now his reputation is paying the price, but I believe he's had the best Portland career of any Trail Blazer.

[Dangeruss]

I have him as best ever. I honestly can’t take Walton seriously in this discussion, but that’s just me.

[Skhraeurpl]

Dame was gifted the title by a lot of blazers fans prematurely BECAUSE of his loyalty and under the assumption he would finish his career as a blazer and put scoring and assist totals and all star/all nba totals far ahead of Clyde.

Now that his blazer career is over and the manor in which he has left it kinda throws the loyalty factor out the window and he won’t have a chance to put up far and away all time numbers over Clyde.

It had the chance to be a unanimous decision to put Dame as GBOAT, but now it’s just a 3 way debate, any is a fine choice (I choose the two way player with the long career, I’m sure some will value the one way offensive threat), but it is a debate now.

[Effigy]

I have him as best ever. I honestly can’t take Walton seriously in this discussion, but that’s just me.

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say someone comes to you gives you three choices for Scoot’s career and future. He can
A) make 2 all star games, win an MVP and win a title and finals MVP but then get injured
B) can be an 8 time all star, 2nd place MVP finish and 2 NBA finals appearances but no title.
C) 7 time all star, no finals appearances.

Be honest, which one would you choose?

I can see arguments for A or B. The only argument for C is literally ‘that’s my childhood’

[Moonbeam]

I have him as best ever. I honestly can’t take Walton seriously in this discussion, but that’s just me.

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say someone comes to you gives you three choices for Scoot’s career and future. He can
A) make 2 all star games, win an MVP and win a title and finals MVP but then get injured
B) can be an 8 time all star, 2nd place MVP finish and 2 NBA finals appearances but no title.
C) 7 time all star, no finals appearances.

Be honest, which one would you choose?

I can see arguments for A or B. The only argument for C is literally ‘that’s my childhood’

This assumes that the roster construction around these players was the same, when it absolutely was not. Walton and Drexler had far stronger casts than Lillard ever did.

Comparing accolades of Lillard and Drexler in Portland:

Top 10 MVP finishes:

Lillard: 5 (#4, #6, #7, #8, #8)
Drexler: 4 (#2, #5, #6, #10)

All-NBA voting:

Lillard: 7 (1 1st, 4 2nd, 2 3rd)
Drexler: 4 (1 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd)

Drexler has 0.775 MVP shares compared to 0.354 for Lillard. But Lillard has 3.64 All-NBA Voting shares compared to 2.107 for Drexler. It's important to note that the NBA didn't have an All-NBA 3rd team until 1989, but I'll note that Lillard generally played in a more competitive era for guards than Drexler did.

It's not easy to separate them in this way. Drexler's teams had greater team success (which I loved as this is when I became a fan of the team), but Drexler never had the anchors that are Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin weighing the team down.

[DC_Melo]

Just so hard to really compare, you're talking guys 15-30 years apart. Walton in the late 70s, Clyde in the early 90's, Dame in 10's.

So yeah, who can say really? Walton and Clyde got their teams further but also had much better-supporting casts than anything Dame had (aside from maybe his first few years with Aldridge). I think as an individual talent, Dame was by far the most unique talent the Blazers have ever had. Clyde may have been better, if MJ never existed, we may talk about Drexler like we talk about Jordan... but you can play that same game with Dame and Curry. If Curry never existed, would Dame be talked about like Curry?

It really is hard to say who had the BEST legacy… for the reasons you list plus many more. Walton led us to our only Title, Clyde did just about everything except win a Title (with us), and Lillard is the most offensively gifted player to ever don the pinwheel.

But I do know who my favorite is… and that’s still Dame, despite all the trade drama and my nostalgic love for 90’s era basketball.

Break ups are messy and ugly in nature. This one has been no different and will likely still get nastier before a trade is made. But I try not to judge either side too harshly as there is a lot at stake for both, both are acting in their own best interests, and at the end of the day, none of us are actually present to get the full picture.

I can forgive Dame for being selfish as he sees his career window closing. And I will never forget all the awesome memories he gave me over these past 11 years… especially the 2 shots.

It had been 14 years people… A 14 year drought of regular season and playoff futility marred by the likes of Martel Webster bad back and Sebastian Telfair’s never fulfilling potential. And in .9 seconds Dame put those dark years behind us. I still remember shouting at the top of my lungs at an AZ sports bar when it happened.

And vs OKC, with a 3-1 series lead and down 15 with 5 minutes left in the 4th… instead of mailing it in and trying again in game 6… Dame went on a tear down the stretch and completed his 50 burger by busting a logo all over PG’s face as time expired…

Still gives me goosebumps.

And that’s why Dame is my top Blazer

[Effigy]

I have him as best ever. I honestly can’t take Walton seriously in this discussion, but that’s just me.

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say someone comes to you gives you three choices for Scoot’s career and future. He can
A) make 2 all star games, win an MVP and win a title and finals MVP but then get injured
B) can be an 8 time all star, 2nd place MVP finish and 2 NBA finals appearances but no title.
C) 7 time all star, no finals appearances.

Be honest, which one would you choose?

I can see arguments for A or B. The only argument for C is literally ‘that’s my childhood’

This assumes that the roster construction around these players was the same, when it absolutely was not. Walton and Drexler had far stronger casts than Lillard ever did.

Comparing accolades of Lillard and Drexler in Portland:

Top 10 MVP finishes:

Lillard: 5 (#4, #6, #7, #8, #8)
Drexler: 4 (#2, #5, #6, #10)

All-NBA voting:

Lillard: 7 (1 1st, 4 2nd, 2 3rd)
Drexler: 4 (1 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd)

Drexler has 0.775 MVP shares compared to 0.354 for Lillard. But Lillard has 3.64 All-NBA Voting shares compared to 2.107 for Drexler. It's important to note that the NBA didn't have an All-NBA 3rd team until 1989, but I'll note that Lillard generally played in a more competitive era for guards than Drexler did.

It's not easy to separate them in this way. Drexler's teams had greater team success (which I loved as this is when I became a fan of the team), but Drexler never had the anchors that are Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin weighing the team down.

Were their teams that much better though? None of these teams had any perennial all stars around the main guys. The guys that did make the team were your classic 'we only made the all-star team because we have a good record' types. The players on those teams were definitely good and solid, but not like the players on Dame's teams sucked either. They did get to a WCF.

And funny how you address the MVP comp with Drexler but ignore it for Walton. AND how you didn't answer the question, which I guess IS an answer in it's own way....

[Moonbeam]

Let me give you a hypothetical. Say someone comes to you gives you three choices for Scoot’s career and future. He can
A) make 2 all star games, win an MVP and win a title and finals MVP but then get injured
B) can be an 8 time all star, 2nd place MVP finish and 2 NBA finals appearances but no title.
C) 7 time all star, no finals appearances.

Be honest, which one would you choose?

I can see arguments for A or B. The only argument for C is literally ‘that’s my childhood’

This assumes that the roster construction around these players was the same, when it absolutely was not. Walton and Drexler had far stronger casts than Lillard ever did.

Comparing accolades of Lillard and Drexler in Portland:

Top 10 MVP finishes:

Lillard: 5 (#4, #6, #7, #8, #8)
Drexler: 4 (#2, #5, #6, #10)

All-NBA voting:

Lillard: 7 (1 1st, 4 2nd, 2 3rd)
Drexler: 4 (1 1st, 2 2nd, 1 3rd)

Drexler has 0.775 MVP shares compared to 0.354 for Lillard. But Lillard has 3.64 All-NBA Voting shares compared to 2.107 for Drexler. It's important to note that the NBA didn't have an All-NBA 3rd team until 1989, but I'll note that Lillard generally played in a more competitive era for guards than Drexler did.

It's not easy to separate them in this way. Drexler's teams had greater team success (which I loved as this is when I became a fan of the team), but Drexler never had the anchors that are Neil Olshey and Joe Cronin weighing the team down.

Were their teams that much better though? None of these teams had any perennial all stars around the main guys. The guys that did make the team were your classic 'we only made the all-star team because we have a good record' types. The players on those teams were definitely good and solid, but not like the players on Dame's teams sucked either. They did get to a WCF.

And funny how you address the MVP comp with Drexler but ignore it for Walton. AND how you didn't answer the question, which I guess IS an answer in it's own way....

Yes, I think Drexler's teams really were better overall, by quite some distance. There are a few ways to measure this. None are perfect, but they paint a picture.

Looking at Portland's records without each player, as well as their SRS in those games, we have the following.

Portland without Drexler:

1985: 1-1, SRS 3.89
1986: 4-3, SRS 1.92
1988: 0-1, SRS -20.88
1989: 1-3, SRS -4.96
1990: 4-5, SRS -3.09
1992: 2-4, SRS -0.06
1993: 21-13, SRS 2.66
1994: 8-6, SRS 2.50

Overall: 41-36, SRS 1.01

Portland without Lillard:

2016: 4-3, SRS -1.53
2017: 3-4, SRS 2.26
2018: 5-4, SRS -2.37
2019: 2-0, SRS -2.10
2020: 2-7, SRS -4.71
2021: 3-2, SRS 2.18

Overall: 19-20, SRS -1.33

This is admittedly bumpy and based on small samples for each season, but combining across seasons we get an overall picture that Drexler's teams tended to be stronger. I've left off 2022 and 2023 for Lillard as this would give him a crazy boost as Portland deliberately tanked those seasons.

But before Portland tanked in 2022 and before Lillard was out for the season, Portland did this without him:

Lost by 29 at Denver 11/14/2021
Won by 18 against Detroit 11/30/2021
Lost by 31 to San Antonio 12/2/2021
Lost by 28 to Boston 12/4/2021
Lost by 12 to the Clippers 12/6/2021
Lost by 10 at Golden State 12/8/2021

That's a MOV of -15.33 against teams with an average SRS of 1.24.

Before he was shut down in 2023, Portland did this without him:

Won by 14 against Houston 10/28/2022
Lost by 5 against Memphis 11/2/2022
Won by 2 at Phoenix 11/4/2022
Lost by 20 at Phoenix 11/5/2022
Won by 11 at New Orleans 11/10/2022
Lost by 8 at Milwaukee 11/21/2022
Lost by 18 at Cleveland 11/23/2022
Won by 3 at New York 11/25/2022
Lost by 14 at Brooklyn 11/27/2022
Lost by 6 against the Clippers 11/29/2022
Lost by 19 at the Lakers 11/30/2022
Won by 5 at Utah 12/3/2022
Lost by 17 at Sacramento 2/23/2023
Lost by 17 at New Orleans 3/12/2023

That's a MOV of -6.36 against teams with an average SRS of 1.31.

I'm also working on some models for GOAT rankings and looking at adjusted Win Shares based on age curves (and some other measures still in progress). It's a bit geeky (of course!), but the details if you're interested are here in an initial, incomplete draft.

Looking at expected win shares of their teammates and dividing by games played (as there are some shortened seasons for Lillard), this gives a picture of how Drexler's and Lillard's teammates were expected to perform based on age curves.

Drexler's teammates:

1984: 0.518 EWS/G
1985: 0.492 EWS/G
1986: 0.507 EWS/G
1987: 0.496 EWS/G
1988: 0.442 EWS/G
1989: 0.431 EWS/G
1990: 0.505 EWS/G
1991: 0.500 EWS/G
1992: 0.498 EWS/G
1993: 0.541 EWS/G
1994: 0.525 EWS/G

Overall: 0.496 EWS/G

Lillard's teammates:

2013: 0.373 EWS/G
2014: 0.461 EWS/G
2015: 0.438 EWS/G
2016: 0.437 EWS/G
2017: 0.422 EWS/G
2018: 0.415 EWS/G
2019: 0.407 EWS/G
2020: 0.359 EWS/G
2021: 0.423 EWS/G
2022: 0.314 EWS/G
2023: 0.297 EWS/G

Overall: 0.395 EWS/G

Only the 2014 and 2015 teams with LMA, Batum, Matthews, etc. (and surprisingly, 2016) rank above the worst of Clyde's teammate expectations.

In a final crude measure, let's look at awards for their teammates.

All-Star teammates:

Jim Paxson 1984
Steve Johnson 1988
Kevin Duckworth 1989
Kevin Duckworth 1991
Terry Porter 1991
Terry Porter 1993
Clifford Robinson 1994
LaMarcus Aldridge 2013
LaMarcus Aldridge 2014
LaMarcus Aldridge 2015

All-NBA teammates:

Jim Paxson 1984 2nd team
LaMarcus Aldridge 2014 3rd team
LaMarcus Aldridge 2015 2nd team

All-Defense teammates:

Buck Williams 1990 1st team
Buck Williams 1991 1st team
Buck Williams 1992 2nd team

Dame may have had the most decorated teammate in Aldridge, but nobody else has ever won an award while he was on the team, and LMA was only with him for 3 seasons. Drexler, by contrast, had 7 All-Star teammate selections and Buck Williams getting 3 All-Defense nods. Every year from 1988-1994, Drexler had at least one teammate win a league award.