Rumor: Hinrich to Blazers

[Wizenheimer]

one thing that would kill this deal as far as I'm concerned: have the Bulls picked up the option on Simmon's contract yet like the blazers did for Sergio?

If they did, then Simmon's 2.7 million salary is on the books for portland next summer, considerably squeezing their cap-space.

[fudgie]

one thing that would kill this deal as far as I'm concerned: have the Bulls picked up the option on Simmon's contract yet like the blazers did for Sergio?

If they did, then Simmon's 2.7 million salary is on the books for portland next summer, considerably squeezing their cap-space.

They didn't pick up the option. Simmons is an expiring.

[Wizenheimer]

I posted on page one but never replied to those who asked how I thought we could get a better deal.

Hinrich has been one of my favorite players in the past, and I could surely get behind him again, even though I was disappointed by his part in Chicago's disastrous 2007-2008 season. I have spoken for and against bringing him in depending on my mood. Today, I'm not opposed to the deal, but I'd like it to be a little bit better. The way I'd do this is by taking Sergio out of the deal.

LaFrentz and Blake for Hinrich, Simmons, and Gray.

Blake is better than Sergio, but Hinrich completely replaces and upgrades Blake's abilities (except maybe deep shooting, but we're well covered there). What Hinrich doesn't bring to the table is dribble penetration, and that's Sergio's signature. If we trade Sergio for Hinrich we give up the option to throw in a guy who can break down defenders and dish when the offense isn't working. Sergio is improving, too: shooting efficiency is up (from abysmal to bad, but still...), assists are up, turnovers are down, and he's rebounding at a terrific rate for a slight guard. Plus, Sergio is under contract at a bargain rate next season. He is an imperfect bench player, but he guards against the problem I've warned against in some Hinrich threads, that Hinrich doesn't solve the lone problem in our offense of creating buckets off dribble penetration by somebody other than Roy.

Switching Blake for Sergio shouldn't be a problem for Chicago because Blake is more reliable than Sergio, anyway. If it is a problem, well, they're not in a position to bargain. They don't need Hinrich and get to save millions of dollars by moving him.

I totally agree with your entire post.

-Lack of dribble penetration from Hinrich and Blake (causing the comparison)
-Sergio's value on this team (change of pace & Rudy's buddy)

*** Blake substituted for Sergio
-It seems like this would be a better fit for Chicago anyways as Blake would be a veteran behind Rose. As solid as Rose looks to be, it is always nice to have a legit veteran on the team. This would suggest that this deal wouldn't happen until after Hinrich is healthy enough to play.

you may agree with the trade...I don't I do

but more important, the CBA doesn't agree. It's way to much salary for the Bulls to take on by CBA rules.

[Wizenheimer]

one thing that would kill this deal as far as I'm concerned: have the Bulls picked up the option on Simmon's contract yet like the blazers did for Sergio?

If they did, then Simmon's 2.7 million salary is on the books for portland next summer, considerably squeezing their cap-space.

They didn't pick up the option. Simmons is an expiring.

ok..thanks for info!

[Fitz303]

I posted on page one but never replied to those who asked how I thought we could get a better deal.

Hinrich has been one of my favorite players in the past, and I could surely get behind him again, even though I was disappointed by his part in Chicago's disastrous 2007-2008 season. I have spoken for and against bringing him in depending on my mood. Today, I'm not opposed to the deal, but I'd like it to be a little bit better. The way I'd do this is by taking Sergio out of the deal.

LaFrentz and Blake for Hinrich, Simmons, and Gray.

Blake is better than Sergio, but Hinrich completely replaces and upgrades Blake's abilities (except maybe deep shooting, but we're well covered there). What Hinrich doesn't bring to the table is dribble penetration, and that's Sergio's signature. If we trade Sergio for Hinrich we give up the option to throw in a guy who can break down defenders and dish when the offense isn't working. Sergio is improving, too: shooting efficiency is up (from abysmal to bad, but still...), assists are up, turnovers are down, and he's rebounding at a terrific rate for a slight guard. Plus, Sergio is under contract at a bargain rate next season. He is an imperfect bench player, but he guards against the problem I've warned against in some Hinrich threads, that Hinrich doesn't solve the lone problem in our offense of creating buckets off dribble penetration by somebody other than Roy.

Switching Blake for Sergio shouldn't be a problem for Chicago because Blake is more reliable than Sergio, anyway. If it is a problem, well, they're not in a position to bargain. They don't need Hinrich and get to save millions of dollars by moving him.

I totally agree with your entire post.

-Lack of dribble penetration from Hinrich and Blake (causing the comparison)
-Sergio's value on this team (change of pace & Rudy's buddy)

*** Blake substituted for Sergio
-It seems like this would be a better fit for Chicago anyways as Blake would be a veteran behind Rose. As solid as Rose looks to be, it is always nice to have a legit veteran on the team. This would suggest that this deal wouldn't happen until after Hinrich is healthy enough to play.

you may agree with the trade...I don't I do

but more important, the CBA doesn't agree. It's way to much salary for the Bulls to take on by CBA rules.

Actually with Chicago's TE from the trade with Cleveland last year, a deal of Raef and Blake for Hinrich and simmons works as well

[Telfaire]

one thing that would kill this deal as far as I'm concerned: have the Bulls picked up the option on Simmon's contract yet like the blazers did for Sergio?

If they did, then Simmon's 2.7 million salary is on the books for portland next summer, considerably squeezing their cap-space.

Well, Simmons is an interesting prospect as a PF/C banger off the bench. I'd rather keep him over Frye and Diogu.

[Cliff Levingston]

If we get Hinrich and it kills our cap, I want Nocioni to come along too.

Cliff Levingston would probably be on board with a LaFrentz + Blake for Hinrich + Nocioni deal even though the Bulls are losing BADLY on talent. Maybe if the Blazers included their first rounder protected or something it'd sit a little bit better.

About Nocioni though; the team has always loved him even during last year when a lot of Bulls fans were eager to get rid of him. Noc fits into this system and along with Rose great and it's showed with his play so far this year. So, as it related to a deal with the Blazers, Cliff Levingston doesn't think Paxson would be inclined to include Nocioni in the deal unless the return was substantially better... and Cliff Levingston certainly wouldn't expect the Blazers to be all that interested in him anyway given the Webster extension and Batum/Outlaw in the fold.

[Wizenheimer]

Actually with Chicago's TE from the trade with Cleveland last year, a deal of Raef and Blake for Hinrich and simmons works as well

ahhh!...didn't think about that

I still wouldn't like it much, but then I don't have as high opinion of sergio as most here.

I question that the Bulls would spend that exception on Blake as well. In fact, the Bulls' aversion to the luxury tax almost certainly means they wouldn't go for that deal

[Tim Lehrbach]

I posted on page one but never replied to those who asked how I thought we could get a better deal.

Hinrich has been one of my favorite players in the past, and I could surely get behind him again, even though I was disappointed by his part in Chicago's disastrous 2007-2008 season. I have spoken for and against bringing him in depending on my mood. Today, I'm not opposed to the deal, but I'd like it to be a little bit better. The way I'd do this is by taking Sergio out of the deal.

LaFrentz and Blake for Hinrich, Simmons, and Gray.

Blake is better than Sergio, but Hinrich completely replaces and upgrades Blake's abilities (except maybe deep shooting, but we're well covered there). What Hinrich doesn't bring to the table is dribble penetration, and that's Sergio's signature. If we trade Sergio for Hinrich we give up the option to throw in a guy who can break down defenders and dish when the offense isn't working. Sergio is improving, too: shooting efficiency is up (from abysmal to bad, but still...), assists are up, turnovers are down, and he's rebounding at a terrific rate for a slight guard. Plus, Sergio is under contract at a bargain rate next season. He is an imperfect bench player, but he guards against the problem I've warned against in some Hinrich threads, that Hinrich doesn't solve the lone problem in our offense of creating buckets off dribble penetration by somebody other than Roy.

Switching Blake for Sergio shouldn't be a problem for Chicago because Blake is more reliable than Sergio, anyway. If it is a problem, well, they're not in a position to bargain. They don't need Hinrich and get to save millions of dollars by moving him.

I totally agree with your entire post.

-Lack of dribble penetration from Hinrich and Blake (causing the comparison)
-Sergio's value on this team (change of pace & Rudy's buddy)

*** Blake substituted for Sergio
-It seems like this would be a better fit for Chicago anyways as Blake would be a veteran behind Rose. As solid as Rose looks to be, it is always nice to have a legit veteran on the team. This would suggest that this deal wouldn't happen until after Hinrich is healthy enough to play.

you may agree with the trade...I don't I do

but more important, the CBA doesn't agree. It's way to much salary for the Bulls to take on by CBA rules.

It works.

Chicago looks at it as two trades: Blake for TPE and Hinrich, Simmons, Gray and LaFrentz. For Portland, it's just one deal.

And yes, I meant to say this would be a deadline deal, so we'd have a healthy starting point guard the whole season.

[Wizenheimer]

one thing that would kill this deal as far as I'm concerned: have the Bulls picked up the option on Simmon's contract yet like the blazers did for Sergio?

If they did, then Simmon's 2.7 million salary is on the books for portland next summer, considerably squeezing their cap-space.

Well, Simmons is an interesting prospect as a PF/C banger off the bench. I'd rather keep him over Frye and Diogu.

I'm certain Diogu won't be here next season and I'm inclined to think Frye won't either.

Simmons is pretty much useless and I'd much rather have 2.7 million in cap-space then his butt on the end of the blazer bench

[Tim Lehrbach]

Actually with Chicago's TE from the trade with Cleveland last year, a deal of Raef and Blake for Hinrich and simmons works as well

ahhh!...didn't think about that

I still wouldn't like it much, but then I don't have as high opinion of sergio as most here.

I question that the Bulls would spend that exception on Blake as well. In fact, the Bulls' aversion to the luxury tax almost certainly means they wouldn't go for that deal

Yes, the salary increase is a tough sell, but it may be their best chance to dump Hinrich.

[Wizenheimer]

It works.

Chicago looks at it as two trades: Blake for TPE and Hinrich, Simmons, Gray and LaFrentz. For Portland, it's just one deal.

And yes, I meant to say this would be a deadline deal, so we'd have a healthy starting point guard the whole season.

yeak..Fitz brought that to my attention...sorry I missed the TPE

but from what I've read about Reinsdorf and the Bulls management, they will absolutely not go above the luxury tax threshold and this trade idea would put them there.

It's probably certain the Bulls would refuse

edit: we're talking back and forth with a time delay...makes one of us look dumb and I'm worried it's me.

[Wizenheimer]

If we get Hinrich and it kills our cap, I want Nocioni to come along too.

Cliff Levingston would probably be on board with a LaFrentz + Blake for Hinrich + Nocioni deal even though the Bulls are losing BADLY on talent. Maybe if the Blazers included their first rounder protected or something it'd sit a little bit better.

About Nocioni though; the team has always loved him even during last year when a lot of Bulls fans were eager to get rid of him. Noc fits into this system and along with Rose great and it's showed with his play so far this year. So, as it related to a deal with the Blazers, Cliff Levingston doesn't think Paxson would be inclined to include Nocioni in the deal unless the return was substantially better... and Cliff Levingston certainly wouldn't expect the Blazers to be all that interested in him anyway given the Webster extension and Batum/Outlaw in the fold.

I'm convinced portland wouldn't be interested either. Portland can take on Hinrich and still have substantial cap-space. Nocioni would kill that

[JD45]

If we get Hinrich and it kills our cap, I want Nocioni to come along too.

Cliff Levingston would probably be on board with a LaFrentz + Blake for Hinrich + Nocioni deal even though the Bulls are losing BADLY on talent. Maybe if the Blazers included their first rounder protected or something it'd sit a little bit better.

About Nocioni though; the team has always loved him even during last year when a lot of Bulls fans were eager to get rid of him. Noc fits into this system and along with Rose great and it's showed with his play so far this year. So, as it related to a deal with the Blazers, Cliff Levingston doesn't think Paxson would be inclined to include Nocioni in the deal unless the return was substantially better... and Cliff Levingston certainly wouldn't expect the Blazers to be all that interested in him anyway given the Webster extension and Batum/Outlaw in the fold.

I'm convinced portland wouldn't be interested either. Portland can take on Hinrich and still have substantial cap-space. Nocioni would kill that

If they got Hinrich and Nocioni, what would be the use of cap space? Who would you want to sign?

[SabasRevenge!]

I may be the lone voice on this, but I'd actually rather see Nocioni than Outlaw. He's a vet, we know he can shoot, rebound, and play D. He's a great role player. Outlaw has had a terrific season, but Martell will be back soon. Noc can also play some 4 like Outlaw has. Blake/Outlaw/Lafrentz for Hinrich/Nocioni/TE might get killed in here, but I like it. I don't know, maybe CHI throws a protected 1st in - like a 2011 or 2012 pick.

[Wizenheimer]

If they got Hinrich and Nocioni, what would be the use of cap space? Who would you want to sign?

well, first of all, your question is incomplete. It's should be "who would you want to sign or trade for"?, because cap-space isn't limited to only signings.

in the narrow option of signings, I'd say an addition of Hinrich and Turkoglu would beat the hell out of hinrich and nocioni. But then, I think Portland desperately needs another player who can create offense for himself and others, something Hedo can do well.

I'd also reserve the option of considering Ron Artest. Yeah, he's a tinder-box, but he's also a singular talent.

But of course the trade option using cap-space is what I think KP is looking at. There are some RFA's that may be worth considering. Marvin Williams, Josh Childress, and Linas Kleiza all play the same position as Nocioni, and are all arguably better. There's also players like Ramon Sessions, Franciso Garcia, and Leon Powe. The leverage of cap-space may be able to overcome the limitations of pursuing another teams RFA's.

And come around the time of the next draft and the following summer, the 12-16 million in cap-space portland could have will be increasingly valuable for leveraging a good deal. And in my view, it wouldn't take much of a deal to top the addition of Nocioni, who is no better either now or in the future then the players they already have at that position.

In other words, the use of that cap-space could beat the addition of Nocioni in a variety of ways, perhaps even in not adding another player at all.

[Soulyss]

I may be the lone voice on this, but I'd actually rather see Nocioni than Outlaw. He's a vet, we know he can shoot, rebound, and play D. He's a great role player. Outlaw has had a terrific season, but Martell will be back soon. Noc can also play some 4 like Outlaw has. Blake/Outlaw/Lafrentz for Hinrich/Nocioni/TE might get killed in here, but I like it. I don't know, maybe CHI throws a protected 1st in - like a 2011 or 2012 pick.

This makes sense only if the following is true: KP has looked over who will be available as a FA or a RFA (based on the likelyhood the other team will match) and decided that Hinrich + Nocioni is the best talent he can get for Raef's contract.

Looking at the FA and RFA lists, I think you can make make that arguement assuming the blazers don't want to take on the massive headache that is "The Matrix". Outside of him there aren't a lot of difference makers who aren't RFAs likely to sign with their current team.

[Wizenheimer]

I may be the lone voice on this, but I'd actually rather see Nocioni than Outlaw. He's a vet, we know he can shoot, rebound, and play D. He's a great role player. Outlaw has had a terrific season, but Martell will be back soon. Noc can also play some 4 like Outlaw has. Blake/Outlaw/Lafrentz for Hinrich/Nocioni/TE might get killed in here, but I like it. I don't know, maybe CHI throws a protected 1st in - like a 2011 or 2012 pick.

last season on a per36 basis, outlaw shot a better FG% and a better 3pt%. Outlaw was a better rebounder. They were equal in assists, but outlaw had far fewer turnovers. Outlaw blocked more shots, and more then doubled Nocioni in steals. He may be a little better on the defensive end, but I think that's debatable.

I understand if you just want outlaw gone, but to take on a lesser player then him that also destroys the cap-space plan is a bad idea.

[cucad8]

last season on a per36 basis, outlaw shot a better FG% and a better 3pt%. Outlaw was a better rebounder. They were equal in assists, but outlaw had far fewer turnovers. Outlaw blocked more shots, and more then doubled Nocioni in steals. He may be a little better on the defensive end, but I think that's debatable.

I understand if you just want outlaw gone, but to take on a lesser player then him that also destroys the cap-space plan is a bad idea.

This is just a ridiculously biased paragraph. Come on now. Shot a better FG%?? .433 to .432 Yeah, , you win that one. Wow, what a better shooter. 6.2 rebounds to 6.1. Yep, better rebounder. "FAR FEWER" turnovers equals .6 TOs per game. Per 36 minutes, that's not FAR FEWER. Outlaw shot better from 3. Nocioni was abetter FT shooter. Better ball defender. So, to try to make your point, you go to per/36 #s, but you don't tell anyone what those numbers are, you just say one is better than the other, because the actual difference is so small, it really isn't a difference. What's .001 percentage points on a FG for the year? One more missed shot? Maybe two? That's just wrong, and a very weak attempt at proving a point.
Nocioni also got to the lime more times per game than Outlaw, and shot a FAR greater percentage than outlaw. I liek Outlaw, and I am not saying Nocioni is head and shoulders better. you factor in age, salary, and I prefer Outlaw more. But to go about it this way to try to prove your point is fairly pathetic.

[SabasRevenge!]

Look, I'm not suggesting that Nocioni has greater value than Outlaw, but I do think he's be a better cog in our machine.

As cucad pointed out, your comparison suggesting that Outlaw is better than Nocioni in pretty much every possible way neglects some important information.

Nocioni made 126 3P in 2021 minutes compared to 40 makes for Outlaw in 2186 minutes. Aside from Nocioni's greater defensive effectiveness, I've also got to consider his long term value to a team. Last summer, Outlaw suggested that he would like 15 shots per game. That's not going to happen. He's taking about 10 with Webster due back soon. Nocioni is a <10 shot, around a 24MPG guy who knows his role. Outlaw may blow up somewhere else and I'm not suggesting this trade now, but it may be a great trade around the deadline and possibly soon after Webster returns, especially if Martell sees a slight increase over his 28MPG from last year.

Maybe Outlaw will accept his role as a 7th or 8th man on this squad. If he doesn't, we'll need to move him.