Should the Kings trade Martin?

[Joseph17]

At this point, I think the Kings should just trade Martin. It's obvious that they are just as good without him and Martin isn't the kind of guy that you could build around. Martin will probably be passed his prime by the time the Kings are done rebuilding. It doesn't make sense for them to keep him on the team.

[pillwenney]

First, it's way, way, way, way, way too early to say "it's obvious that they are just as good without him". This team is way too early to judge in pretty much every way. These guys are still trying to find a way to fit together.

I'm tempted to lock this, but I think it could otherwise be an interesting topic if some people are interested. But let's not make it a thread like "OMG KINGS WON WITHOUT KEVIN TONIGHT IN UTAH! LET'S BASE EVERYTHING OFF OF THAT EVEN THOUGH DOING THAT IS COMPLETELY RIDICULOUS!!!"

[Smills91]

At this point, I think the Kings should just trade Martin. It's obvious that they are just as good without him and Martin isn't the kind of guy that you could build around. Martin will probably be passed his prime by the time the Kings are done rebuilding. It doesn't make sense for them to keep him on the team.

Sure, if it's for LeBron, Wade, Howard, Bosh or any other DOMINANT superstar about to enter their prime. Otherwise, no not really. I propose Martin trades on the t&t board, just to gauge how underrated and ridiculous comments I can get from other teams fans about him and the Kings. It's a fun exercise.

[Wolfay]

I think Kevin is liability on defense, and I think tonight showed that we can be a solid defensive team without him. Kevin isn't a terrible defender, but people blow by him on a consistent basis.

On the other end, I think we get a little stagnant offensively because perhaps we rely on Martin too much to score. Martin didn't play tonight, so everybody had to shoulder the burden and they handled it well. The ball moves more when Martin is not on the court, IMO.

I've been on the trade Martin bandwagon for about a year now and although in the short term it would hurt us, I think as our team matures, we'll hardly miss him. We'll definitely need another guard though (John Wall?) because Evans can't do it all by himself.

[Smills91]

I think Kevin is liability on defense, and I think tonight showed that we can be a solid defensive team without him. Kevin isn't a terrible defender, but people blow by him on a consistent basis.

On the other end, I think we get a little stagnant offensively because perhaps we rely on Martin too much to score. Martin didn't play tonight, so everybody had to shoulder the burden and they handled it well. The ball moves more when Martin is not on the court, IMO.

I've been on the trade Martin bandwagon for about a year now and although in the short term it would hurt us, I think as our team matures, we'll hardly miss him. We'll definitely need another guard though (John Wall?) because Evans can't do it all by himself.

There's just nothing here that I can agree with at all other than the stagnation affect(I think all star players can have that happen to them by their teammates). It's almost like we're watching two different games Wolfay.

[bjax24]

really? this thread is happening? I hope to wake up tomorrow to find out this never happened.

[TexFTW]

First I would like to see Evans playing SF.

[pillwenney]

I think Kevin is liability on defense, and I think tonight showed that we can be a solid defensive team without him. Kevin isn't a terrible defender, but people blow by him on a consistent basis.

On the other end, I think we get a little stagnant offensively because perhaps we rely on Martin too much to score. Martin didn't play tonight, so everybody had to shoulder the burden and they handled it well. The ball moves more when Martin is not on the court, IMO.

I've been on the trade Martin bandwagon for about a year now and although in the short term it would hurt us, I think as our team matures, we'll hardly miss him. We'll definitely need another guard though (John Wall?) because Evans can't do it all by himself.

Kevin's really not a liability defensively. He's an average defender over all. Tonight we mostly did a good job running an effective zone. It's not as if Ronnie Brewer would have gone off if Kevin had been playing, and Deron was spectacular anyway.

As I see it, the problems we have right now can all be solved by simply figuring out how the team fits together. Part of the problem in general is that Kevin is too much of a focus on offense right now, but that's natural. We're still trying to figure out what we've got in Tyreke, and so naturally, we're going to rely on our only proven scorer. This has an adverse affect in a couple of ways. First it affects the rest of Kevin's game. To me, it has been clear in the past that he is a better defender and rebounder when he doesn't have to use all of his energy offensively. I will say though that tonight was not an example of everybody really getting involved. Tyreke is a better playmaker so he got more assists, but the offense still almost never ran through Spencer or Jason, and it didn't consistently run through anybody but Tyreke, until the 4th quarter with Beno.

I think we're well off keeping Kevin around and seeing how these guys can fit together. I think we've forgotten where Martin is at his most useful. If we can find a way to primarily run things through mostly Tyreke and Spencer, Kevin can work wonderfully off of them. Looking back, I think Kevin was really a great fit with Ron. In a weird way, I think he can be a similarly good fit with Tyreke. Even though we have ran things through Kevin a lot in the last year, I don't think the fact that that hasn't been successful should be grounds to trade Kevin. We've known that that's not where his strengths lie. His strengths lie in playing a Peja-like role, but doing it much better than Peja while being an over all better player than Peja.

Edit: I also think the idea of being on a bandwagon to trade anybody is silly. Trade for who? For what purpose?

[Wolfay]

I think Kevin is liability on defense, and I think tonight showed that we can be a solid defensive team without him. Kevin isn't a terrible defender, but people blow by him on a consistent basis.

On the other end, I think we get a little stagnant offensively because perhaps we rely on Martin too much to score. Martin didn't play tonight, so everybody had to shoulder the burden and they handled it well. The ball moves more when Martin is not on the court, IMO.

I've been on the trade Martin bandwagon for about a year now and although in the short term it would hurt us, I think as our team matures, we'll hardly miss him. We'll definitely need another guard though (John Wall?) because Evans can't do it all by himself.

There's just nothing here that I can agree with at all other than the stagnation affect(I think all star players can have that happen to them by their teammates). It's almost like we're watching two different games Wolfay.

I think it's because you're slightly homerish Smills (no offense!), and Kevin Martin is not an All-Star player as he is yet to play in an All-Star game.

Kevin is just Peja 2.0 to me. Great scorer, has absolutely no durability, and little else.

[KF10]

I KNEW a thread like this will appear!

It's way premature to start this. This is exactly the definition of "going overboard".

[pillwenney]

I think it's because you're slightly homerish Smills (no offense!), and Kevin Martin is not an All-Star player as he is yet to play in an All-Star game.

Kevin is just Peja 2.0 to me. Great scorer, has absolutely no durability, and little else.

Kevin isn't an all-star player because he has been on crap teams. I think everybody can agree he is an all-star talent. Deron Williams has yet to play in an all-star game. At some point, you have to look at circumstances.

And you say great scorer, as if in passing. What Kevin does is so rare and it should be appreciated for what it is. He is much more efficient than Peja ever was. Just because you can't build around him, doesn't mean he's not worth keeping.

[Wolfay]

I think it's because you're slightly homerish Smills (no offense!), and Kevin Martin is not an All-Star player as he is yet to play in an All-Star game.

Kevin is just Peja 2.0 to me. Great scorer, has absolutely no durability, and little else.

Kevin isn't an all-star player because he has been on crap teams. I think everybody can agree he is an all-star talent. Deron Williams has yet to play in an all-star game. At some point, you have to look at circumstances.

And you say great scorer, as if in passing. What Kevin does is so rare and it should be appreciated for what it is. He is much more efficient than Peja ever was. Just because you can't build around him, doesn't mean he's not worth keeping.

And now his efficiency, the best aspect of his game, is going to go down a bit because his body can't handle the abuse. Nothing else he does will compensate for that. I don't want that kind of one-dimensional play on my team.

EDIT: And I also said that in the short-term it will hurt us to trade him, but I think we'll learn to compensate pretty easily.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

I don't want to trade Martin. People are REALLY not giving him enough credit. Kings are a better team when he is on the floor PERIOD. Great win tonight, but there is no way in hell we are a better team without him.

If we can trade him for a home run, then obviously go for it. But let's not jump the gun. Give the guy some damn credit.

[pillwenney]

And now his efficiency, the best aspect of his game, is going to go down a bit because his body can't handle the abuse. Nothing else he does will compensate for that. I don't want that kind of one-dimensional play on my team.

I don't see his TS% ever dropping below 60%. His efficiency should also be greatly helped by not constantly being in terrible scoring situations. We're looking at a decrease in FTA by 2 or 3 per game, with an almost certain increase in FG% by nature of the fact that he won't have to constantly create his own shot. There's a reason that his efficiency was better when things were more commonly running through Ron. This should also put less wear and tear on his body.

I honestly feel like you're reaching for reasons to discount him here. His efficiency will never drop below an elite level as long as he is near his prime.

[KingInExile]

I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that Martin is not a guy you build around and that he should be available for a trade that would get a guy who might be more of an impact player. That said, I wouldn't claim that he does not or should not have a role on the team in the future. He can have a lethal presence on the team for a long time as a highly-mobile perimeter guard (a la Reggie Miller). It's too early to start trying to get rid of him just for the sake of moving him.

[pillwenney]

I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that Martin is not a guy you build around and that he should be available for a trade that would get a guy who might be more of an impact player. That said, I wouldn't claim that he does not or should not have a role on the team in the future. He can have a lethal presence on the team for a long time as a highly-mobile perimeter guard (a la Reggie Miller). It's too early to start trying to get rid of him just for the sake of moving him.

This, I can agree with. I am all for trading Kevin for the right deal. But there is just no reason to actively look to move him (especially right now of course, since it's never a good idea to try to trade an injured player). If somebody wants him, they can inquire. No reason to give up any leverage when there is no good reason to look to trade the guy in the first place.

[rpa]

#1: As mitch said it's pretty laughable to say, after 1 game (as great as it was), that the Kings are as good or better w/o Martin on the floor.

#2: Trading Martin right now would mean an absolutely awful return. I'm talking expirings and a mid-late 1st rounder. Teams just aren't going to give up prime value for a guy that'll be out 2 (or more) months.

Now onto the meat of the issue. The real problem for me here is Tyreke Evans and how he fits. After watching Evans this year I have a hard time believing that he's a guy you want to run the point through. He just holds the ball WAY too long; to the point where if he passes the ball whoever he passes to needs to take an immediate pull up or risk the shot clock expiring. There's a large part of me that believes Evans would actually be better suited playing off the ball at the 2 (which is where this effects Martin). To me, you can play well off the ball without being a shooter. What I think would be ideal is you give the ball to a PG (this could also work in a high post system as well) and you run an offense where you have 2-3 options. The number 1 option would be hitting Evans after he runs off a couple screens. Running off those screens should disrupt the defense enough that it would give Evans the window he needs to attack (aside: I think Evans' biggest problem, as far as holding the ball too long, is that he's more elusive than he is quick; a guy who's quick, say Chris Paul, can get by his defender with 1 well placed step or 1 well placed move. Evans, on the other hand, seems like he needs the ball to break his man down one on one, to get him off balance first and then take advantage--call him the ice man if you will. By playing Evans off the ball and running his man off screens you get Tyreke the ball at the point where his man is ALREADY off balance and thus negating Evans' need to break him down). Your second option would be screens, or possibly a shooter in the corner who may be left open for help/weakside D.

In the above kind of offense Martin would work great because he can move off the ball VERY well. The problem is that I don't think you want Martin OR Evans defending the 3. Martin because he's just not built to defend tree trunks like Lebron, etc. and Evans because you'd rather match him up against a smaller guy (at the 2) and let him use his strength and length to shut the guy down (2 advantages he likely won't have against opposing 3s).

So that really leaves you in a tough spot. You can't play Evans at the 1 effectively (IMO at least) and you can't play him and Martin at the 2/3 effectively either. Thus, I'd be open to trading Martin for something worthwhile that helps us longterm. I don't think that we can (or SHOULD) attach Beno/Noc to Martin either. First because we aren't in a position where we have a monopoly on talent and thus should maximize whatever we can get back and second because neither of those guys are cap killers (plus I think we could trade Noc for expirings right now to another team and next year maybe we can unload Beno for expirings if he keeps playing well).

I'd look to trade Martin either for a damn fine young player that we could insert at the 1 or 3 (highly doubt we'd fine a team willing to give up a stud young PG for Martin) OR for as high a pick as we can possibly get in next years' draft. Even though I was against it as recently as last week (maybe early actually), I'd heavily consider trying to get the Knicks pick from Utah for Martin.

[Wolfay]

And now his efficiency, the best aspect of his game, is going to go down a bit because his body can't handle the abuse. Nothing else he does will compensate for that. I don't want that kind of one-dimensional play on my team.

I don't see his TS% ever dropping below 60%. His efficiency should also be greatly helped by not constantly being in terrible scoring situations. We're looking at a decrease in FTA by 2 or 3 per game, with an almost certain increase in FG% by nature of the fact that he won't have to constantly create his own shot. There's a reason that his efficiency was better when things were more commonly running through Ron. This should also put less wear and tear on his body.

I honestly feel like you're reaching for reasons to discount him here. His efficiency will never drop below an elite level as long as he is near his prime.

I have no reason to put him down for the safe of putting it down, and it's funny because I honestly think you're being a little homerish. Efficiency this and efficiency that while totally disregarding what little else he does for the team. His efficiency is special but when it comes down to it, it's not winning us any games. Y'all see a lot of points and give him a pass but not me. We'll see how well the team handles playing without Martin, and I don't think it'll be the disaster most are predicting, not anymore than it has been anyway.

People had trouble of letting go of Peja too, but they eventually turned around and realized it was better for the team.

[pillwenney]

#1: As mitch said it's pretty laughable to say, after 1 game (as great as it was), that the Kings are as good or better w/o Martin on the floor.

#2: Trading Martin right now would mean an absolutely awful return. I'm talking expirings and a mid-late 1st rounder. Teams just aren't going to give up prime value for a guy that'll be out 2 (or more) months.

Now onto the meat of the issue. The real problem for me here is Tyreke Evans and how he fits. After watching Evans this year I have a hard time believing that he's a guy you want to run the point through. He just holds the ball WAY too long; to the point where if he passes the ball whoever he passes to needs to take an immediate pull up or risk the shot clock expiring. There's a large part of me that believes Evans would actually be better suited playing off the ball at the 2 (which is where this effects Martin). To me, you can play well off the ball without being a shooter. What I think would be ideal is you give the ball to a PG (this could also work in a high post system as well) and you run an offense where you have 2-3 options. The number 1 option would be hitting Evans after he runs off a couple screens. Running off those screens should disrupt the defense enough that it would give Evans the window he needs to attack (aside: I think Evans' biggest problem, as far as holding the ball too long, is that he's more elusive than he is quick; a guy who's quick, say Chris Paul, can get by his defender with 1 well placed step or 1 well placed move. Evans, on the other hand, seems like he needs the ball to break his man down one on one, to get him off balance first and then take advantage--call him the ice man if you will. By playing Evans off the ball and running his man off screens you get Tyreke the ball at the point where his man is ALREADY off balance and thus negating Evans' need to break him down). Your second option would be screens, or possibly a shooter in the corner who may be left open for help/weakside D.

In the above kind of offense Martin would work great because he can move off the ball VERY well. The problem is that I don't think you want Martin OR Evans defending the 3. Martin because he's just not built to defend tree trunks like Lebron, etc. and Evans because you'd rather match him up against a smaller guy (at the 2) and let him use his strength and length to shut the guy down (2 advantages he likely won't have against opposing 3s).

So that really leaves you in a tough spot. You can't play Evans at the 1 effectively (IMO at least) and you can't play him and Martin at the 2/3 effectively either. Thus, I'd be open to trading Martin for something worthwhile that helps us longterm. I don't think that we can (or SHOULD) attach Beno/Noc to Martin either. First because we aren't in a position where we have a monopoly on talent and thus should maximize whatever we can get back and second because neither of those guys are cap killers (plus I think we could trade Noc for expirings right now to another team and next year maybe we can unload Beno for expirings if he keeps playing well).

I'd look to trade Martin either for a damn fine young player that we could insert at the 1 or 3 (highly doubt we'd fine a team willing to give up a stud young PG for Martin) OR for as high a pick as we can possibly get in next years' draft. Even though I was against it as recently as last week (maybe early actually), I'd heavily consider trying to get the Knicks pick from Utah for Martin.

A lot of interesting observations. I would only say that it's just too early to set them into stone. In the role you mention though, where we move Tyreke off the ball to get his defender off balance--that sounds like a variation on a Princeton-Mike Bibby PG. Sure Tyreke will do very different things once he has the ball, but it requires about the same amount of PG abilities.

Going back to my main point though, Tyreke is fresh out of a college system (and I would assume high school was like this for him as well) where he kind of was everything. I think it's natural for him to be very ball-dominant right now. And he most certainly is. I agree that it's a problem for the offense, but I also think it's the kind of thing that can improve. Lots of guys come into the league having just carried their college team--Cisco comes to mind as a guy who had the same problem when he first entered the league. He was used to having to carry the whole team. It will take Tyreke some time, but I think he can at least get out of that mentality. He'll probably always be a little ball-dominant, but I don't think he'll necessarily always be the ball-stopper he currently is.

In general, I think it's just too early to make some definite projections. There may come a time when moving Kevin makes sense, but I just think we need to wait and see how some of these guys turn out--and not even just Tyreke. We still need to see how Spencer and Jason are going to grow more. Again, very nice post though--a lot of good thoughts.

[PDXKnight]

Wow... I'm not a Sacramento fan, but I'm completely baffled by this thread. I may not be as big of a Kevin Martin fan as Kings fans are, but when you have a guy like K-Mart, you stick with him. He's a talented guy who at the very least will be a very good second option, and the best part is he's YOUNG. He fits PERFECTLY with Sacramento's young core and if the Kings management can continue to make personnel improvements (with the aid of draft picks), he can be a key player on what should be a good team in the near future.

As a Portland fan, I've seen my team win without its star player. We lost Brandon Roy for a few games last year and they pulled off a 2-2 record on a very tough stretch. Does that make Portland better without Roy? Absolutely not! While Portland played about as well as they would've played with Roy for a few games, they still lacked that guy who could take over games. Things worked fine for 4 games, but it's important to have a go-to guy in the NBA. Sure, Sacramento's playing very well right now, but I'd imagine that your team will perform much better in the long run WITH K-Mart.