Should the Kings trade Martin?

[pillwenney]

Kevin isn't a play maker for other people, and yes he should have shot the ball the most, but not been able to hold it and try to create for himself. Truth be told John Salmons was a better creator than Martin. Salmons however played in a bigger vacuum than Kevin did.

It's roughly the same talent from a year ago with the exception of Tyreke, who didn't start playing well until Kevin was out of the lineup. I can't say that Caspi is an upgrade from Garcia so again I don't think we needed to go the route of give Kevin the ball and watch.

Salmons was a better creator than Kevin, but he's still not the kind of guy you can build any kind of offense around. I don't think that was really a viable option for the offense. Kevin creating for others certainly wasn't a viable option, but at least when he had it, he could create for himself (and continued to do that with great efficiency). I think my point stands that there really weren't many choices.

I'd argue the lineup is a little different. Other than Tyreke, Spencer, Jason and Donte have developed, and like you said, Casspi. Also Beno is playing considerably better (most notably, he's just shooting a lot better right now). It's a different team. The important thing as I see it is that the team didn't know what it had in the first few games, so they kind of continued with the offense as it was from last year. Now that these other guys have stepped up and showed that they can do some things themselves (most notably Tyreke), I expect Kevin to go to a role similar to the 07-08 Martin. Getting around 15 shots a game (plus many trips to the line) playing off the ball.

Make no mistake about it. If Tyreke continues playing the way he has been without Kevin, he will be the best King by the end of the year. He may not be quite the scorer Kevin is (we'll see about that), but he'll be close enough to where his edges elsewhere will more than make up the difference. We also have to remember that, as of right now, it's still very early. We are still all talking a mere 3 games as of right now.

[ICMTM]

Kevin isn't a play maker for other people, and yes he should have shot the ball the most, but not been able to hold it and try to create for himself. Truth be told John Salmons was a better creator than Martin. Salmons however played in a bigger vacuum than Kevin did.

It's roughly the same talent from a year ago with the exception of Tyreke, who didn't start playing well until Kevin was out of the lineup. I can't say that Caspi is an upgrade from Garcia so again I don't think we needed to go the route of give Kevin the ball and watch.

Salmons was a better creator than Kevin, but he's still not the kind of guy you can build any kind of offense around. I don't think that was really a viable option for the offense. Kevin creating for others certainly wasn't a viable option, but at least when he had it, he could create for himself (and continued to do that with great efficiency). I think my point stands that there really weren't many choices.

I'd argue the lineup is a little different. Other than Tyreke, Spencer, Jason and Donte have developed, and like you said, Casspi. Also Beno is playing considerably better (most notably, he's just shooting a lot better right now). It's a different team. The important thing as I see it is that the team didn't know what it had in the first few games, so they kind of continued with the offense as it was from last year. Now that these other guys have stepped up and showed that they can do some things themselves (most notably Tyreke), I expect Kevin to go to a role similar to the 07-08 Martin. Getting around 15 shots a game (plus many trips to the line) playing off the ball.

Make no mistake about it. If Tyreke continues playing the way he has been without Kevin, he will be the best King by the end of the year. He may not be quite the scorer Kevin is (we'll see about that), but he'll be close enough to where his edges elsewhere will more than make up the difference. We also have to remember that, as of right now, it's still very early. We are still all talking a mere 3 games as of right now.

Mitch this isn't like when Webber was gone and status quo remained. This is like whoa...the Kings look like they know what they are doing and you can see the results. If you think that Martin's injury is coincidental to the change in attitude and play then you are in the minority. All I'm saying, wait all I've been saying, is that Kevin shouldn't be a main scorer. We are a better team when he isn't.

It's been a half year since last season. If the youngs grew up and improved THAT rapidly I'll create an argument that maybe if they had the ball more their growth would have been noticed sooner. Either way Mitch you're far more endearing to Kevin's game than me. There's a reason I say Luol Deng is a better pro. Most of you think it's because I think Deng is some stud. It's the opposite. I don't think Martin is as good as most of you do. The more he gets involved the worse our record gets!

[pillwenney]

Mitch this isn't like when Webber was gone and status quo remained. This is like whoa...the Kings look like they know what they are doing and you can see the results. If you think that Martin's injury is coincidental to the change in attitude and play then you are in the minority. All I'm saying, wait all I've been saying, is that Kevin shouldn't be a main scorer. We are a better team when he isn't.

It's been a half year since last season. If the youngs grew up and improved THAT rapidly I'll create an argument that maybe if they had the ball more their growth would have been noticed sooner. Either way Mitch you're far more endearing to Kevin's game than me. There's a reason I say Luol Deng is a better pro. Most of you think it's because I think Deng is some stud. It's the opposite. I don't think Martin is as good as most of you do. The more he gets involved the worse our record gets!

I've already gone through my explanation. I don't think this is a coincidence, I think it's a case of the team not knowing what they had. So they were continuing what they were doing last year--they were giving the ball to Kevin in isolation and telling him to score. We all know that's not really his game, so now that I see that we have talent around him--and Kevin sees that--I expect his game to go back to who he really is. As I see it, this idea that he just decided to start isolating himself more is just totally unfounded IMO. He was misused last year out of necessity, and he was misused at the beginning of this year for the same reason--only we didn't see how well these guys could play without him.

And of course we've gotten worse when Kevin's had the ball more. Last year that happened because we had lost our best player. Your team will get worse when that happens. Kevin simply wasn't nearly the centerpiece that Ron was. That doesn't mean he's not still a very valuable player when used correctly (as a second option), or that he should be blamed when he's not used correctly. It's not Kevin's fault that the team basically became about giving him the ball and telling him to score. That's not what he's good at, but as a second option, you'll be hard pressed to find many better in terms of scoring efficiency.

It's also worth noting that Kevin didn't shoot all that much more last year than he had the year before. He shot 0.9 more shots per game, and 0.8 more FTA per game. The major difference was in how he was getting the shots. And it's not as if Kevin just decided suddenly that he'd rather get the ball in isolation more rather than move without the ball and be more of a finisher of plays. Kevin has always loved playing off the ball. But with Spencer and Jason not ready, Ron gone, and Brad kind of checked out to a degree, he had no one to play off of.

[KF10]

You have been doing a marvelous job mitch! You don't know how much you saved me time with your responses! You bring up very good points and I agree with everything you said.

[ICMTM]

Mitch this isn't like when Webber was gone and status quo remained. This is like whoa...the Kings look like they know what they are doing and you can see the results. If you think that Martin's injury is coincidental to the change in attitude and play then you are in the minority. All I'm saying, wait all I've been saying, is that Kevin shouldn't be a main scorer. We are a better team when he isn't.

It's been a half year since last season. If the youngs grew up and improved THAT rapidly I'll create an argument that maybe if they had the ball more their growth would have been noticed sooner. Either way Mitch you're far more endearing to Kevin's game than me. There's a reason I say Luol Deng is a better pro. Most of you think it's because I think Deng is some stud. It's the opposite. I don't think Martin is as good as most of you do. The more he gets involved the worse our record gets!

I've already gone through my explanation. I don't think this is a coincidence, I think it's a case of the team not knowing what they had. So they were continuing what they were doing last year--they were giving the ball to Kevin in isolation and telling him to score. We all know that's not really his game, so now that I see that we have talent around him--and Kevin sees that--I expect his game to go back to who he really is. As I see it, this idea that he just decided to start isolating himself more is just totally unfounded IMO. He was misused last year out of necessity, and he was misused at the beginning of this year for the same reason--only we didn't see how well these guys could play without him.

And of course we've gotten worse when Kevin's had the ball more. Last year that happened because we had lost our best player. Your team will get worse when that happens. Kevin simply wasn't nearly the centerpiece that Ron was. That doesn't mean he's not still a very valuable player when used correctly (as a second option), or that he should be blamed when he's not used correctly. It's not Kevin's fault that the team basically became about giving him the ball and telling him to score. That's not what he's good at, but as a second option, you'll be hard pressed to find many better in terms of scoring efficiency.

It's also worth noting that Kevin didn't shoot all that much more last year than he had the year before. He shot 0.9 more shots per game, and 0.8 more FTA per game. The major difference was in how he was getting the shots. And it's not as if Kevin just decided suddenly that he'd rather get the ball in isolation more rather than move without the ball and be more of a finisher of plays. Kevin has always loved playing off the ball. But with Spencer and Jason not ready, Ron gone, and Brad kind of checked out to a degree, he had no one to play off of.

I just find it humerous that "it's not Kevin's fault" he turned into a volume scorer and that he's a product of his environment. Kevin made a consious effort to be a better one on one scorer to the point someone posted a training video of it on this board. All of his Bee articles eluded to the fact he was trying to be "the guy" on the team. Kevin Martin planned on becoming the player that he has become. Not out of necessity. Not because the Kings needed it. It's because that's the player Kevin WANTS to be.

Was it encouraged...yeah probably so. Have I stated for the past two years the role isn't good for him. Heck yeah! So why now all of a sudden when there is no Martin (Garcia or Salmons either) and the team looks like a team again does KMart get a pass for his selfish play? We add one piece (Evans) and we have been competitive in EVERY game sans one. We've won three without Martin and have looked BETTER doing it. All I'm saying is this:

We're better off with Martin NOT as our main guy (we agree)
Martin should have never been our main guy (we disagree)
Going forward he shouldn't be our main guy (we agree)
He shouldn't be traded unless we are trading for the good of the team and not because we're playing better without him (I think we agree).

That about sum it up?

[VeeJay24]

Mitch this isn't like when Webber was gone and status quo remained. This is like whoa...the Kings look like they know what they are doing and you can see the results. If you think that Martin's injury is coincidental to the change in attitude and play then you are in the minority. All I'm saying, wait all I've been saying, is that Kevin shouldn't be a main scorer. We are a better team when he isn't.

It's been a half year since last season. If the youngs grew up and improved THAT rapidly I'll create an argument that maybe if they had the ball more their growth would have been noticed sooner. Either way Mitch you're far more endearing to Kevin's game than me. There's a reason I say Luol Deng is a better pro. Most of you think it's because I think Deng is some stud. It's the opposite. I don't think Martin is as good as most of you do. The more he gets involved the worse our record gets!

I've already gone through my explanation. I don't think this is a coincidence, I think it's a case of the team not knowing what they had. So they were continuing what they were doing last year--they were giving the ball to Kevin in isolation and telling him to score. We all know that's not really his game, so now that I see that we have talent around him--and Kevin sees that--I expect his game to go back to who he really is. As I see it, this idea that he just decided to start isolating himself more is just totally unfounded IMO. He was misused last year out of necessity, and he was misused at the beginning of this year for the same reason--only we didn't see how well these guys could play without him.

And of course we've gotten worse when Kevin's had the ball more. Last year that happened because we had lost our best player. Your team will get worse when that happens. Kevin simply wasn't nearly the centerpiece that Ron was. That doesn't mean he's not still a very valuable player when used correctly (as a second option), or that he should be blamed when he's not used correctly. It's not Kevin's fault that the team basically became about giving him the ball and telling him to score. That's not what he's good at, but as a second option, you'll be hard pressed to find many better in terms of scoring efficiency.

It's also worth noting that Kevin didn't shoot all that much more last year than he had the year before. He shot 0.9 more shots per game, and 0.8 more FTA per game. The major difference was in how he was getting the shots. And it's not as if Kevin just decided suddenly that he'd rather get the ball in isolation more rather than move without the ball and be more of a finisher of plays. Kevin has always loved playing off the ball. But with Spencer and Jason not ready, Ron gone, and Brad kind of checked out to a degree, he had no one to play off of.

I just find it humerous that "it's not Kevin's fault" he turned into a volume scorer and that he's a product of his environment. Kevin made a consious effort to be a better one on one scorer to the point someone posted a training video of it on this board. All of his Bee articles eluded to the fact he was trying to be "the guy" on the team. Kevin Martin planned on becoming the player that he has become. Not out of necessity. Not because the Kings needed it. It's because that's the player Kevin WANTS to be.

Was it encouraged...yeah probably so. Have I stated for the past two years the role isn't good for him. Heck yeah! So why now all of a sudden when there is no Martin (Garcia or Salmons either) and the team looks like a team again does KMart get a pass for his selfish play? We add one piece (Evans) and we have been competitive in EVERY game sans one. We've won three without Martin and have looked BETTER doing it. All I'm saying is this:

We're better off with Martin NOT as our main guy (we agree)
Martin should have never been our main guy (we disagree)
Going forward he shouldn't be our main guy (we agree)
He shouldn't be traded unless we are trading for the good of the team and not because we're playing better without him (I think we agree).

That about sum it up?

I have to agree with ICMTM, Martin is just a complimentary player, but if he is willing to take a step back with Evans he can be the best complimetary player in the league. Simply because he is so efficient, he can score from behind the arc, he can slash and he gets to the line and shoots a great %. He has to take that step back though and realize that the team is better if he let's Evans hold the ball in his hand. Really, they all have to take a step back and realize that Thompson & Hawes have to see the ball more. Thompson has really stepped up and proved that he can be somewhat of a force in the paint.

That said I wouldn't be opposed to a trade of Martin, it all depends on what he brings in return.

[darkadun]

^ Agreed.

Look at our team, and lets think about it. Evans is going to be great, he already is demanding double teams and has shown the ability to pass out of them. Thompson is becoming a beast inside, already getting double double's. Hawes can still develop into a great player, he is only 21. He is also a great passer.

So lets just take those 3 players a few years from now. If opposing teams have to worry about Evans tearing them up, JT beating them up inside & Hawes's passing/scoring ability; it should be a feading frenzy for KMart. He can just drift around and be a absolute assassin from the outside.

So, I wouldn't jump to saying, oh we need to trade him. Untouchable, no. Given the right trade scenerio, most players can be moved. But I maintain, Martin can be highly valueable for us going forward. The real question, is just making sure he meshes with the whole team, because I agree it wouldn't be good for him to be taking 20-25 shots every game.

[Bibbinator]

Think Kevin Martin will change his jersey number?? lol

[pillwenney]

I just find it humerous that "it's not Kevin's fault" he turned into a volume scorer and that he's a product of his environment. Kevin made a consious effort to be a better one on one scorer to the point someone posted a training video of it on this board. All of his Bee articles eluded to the fact he was trying to be "the guy" on the team. Kevin Martin planned on becoming the player that he has become. Not out of necessity. Not because the Kings needed it. It's because that's the player Kevin WANTS to be.

Was it encouraged...yeah probably so. Have I stated for the past two years the role isn't good for him. Heck yeah! So why now all of a sudden when there is no Martin (Garcia or Salmons either) and the team looks like a team again does KMart get a pass for his selfish play? We add one piece (Evans) and we have been competitive in EVERY game sans one. We've won three without Martin and have looked BETTER doing it. All I'm saying is this:

We're better off with Martin NOT as our main guy (we agree)
Martin should have never been our main guy (we disagree)
Going forward he shouldn't be our main guy (we agree)
He shouldn't be traded unless we are trading for the good of the team and not because we're playing better without him (I think we agree).

That about sum it up?

I think the bolded part is the key, and I don't even think it needed to be encouraged. Kevin could just look at the team and see "well Ron's gone, and I'm clearly the best scorer, so I guess I had better try to prepare for that responsibility." Just because he tried to prepare for the role doesn't mean he would have done so in different circumstances. I'll ask again. What else would you have suggested, given the roster? I think Kevin should have been the main guy last year not because he's good option for that, but because he was the best available. Salmons was a better playmaker, but hardly a primary one. You might as well get it to your best scorer.

I mean I just honestly don't know what you expected Kevin to do differently. Who was he supposed to play off of?

[Chi town]

I see Martin in the borderline all star club with:

Aldridge
Deng
Love
Iguodala

I think he is fine and he will fit well if you can get Okafor for Thomas.

[darkadun]

Dunno, I just don't see Kmart as selfish. Maybe I'm wrong, it seems more out situation than being selfish. Kev was sort of thrust into the role as #1 player past few years because he was the most talented player and can put up 30+ on any given night. If we can get back to being a great passing team like we were earlier in the decade, I think Kev can play fine in that system.