Should the Kings trade Martin?

[OGSactownballer]

Keep in mind here before anybody gets TOO excited that young teams often come out after a hard injury hit like this and pull off a stunner. I think that it is more of a testament to Westphal's skill as an EXPERIENCED NBA head coach that kept them focused and playing hard until the buzzer sounded.

Also, I do have a sense that the whole Boozer/Milsap thing has put a MUCH bigger bugaboo in the Jazz locker room than ANYONE there is willing to admit. That team did not look at all like they should with essentially everybody who is an impact player healthy. Let's see how they come out against the Warriors tomorrow night before we rush to any early judgements.

Also keep in mind that - despite all the picky little stupid arguments everybody makes here about shortcomings of Kevin's game - Martin IS averaging a LEGIT 30 ppg and I don't see that dropping much if he had stayed healthy. If you consider the fact that opposing coaches consider him the ONLY threat on this team, that is pretty damn impressive by itself.

[rpa]

A lot of interesting observations. I would only say that it's just too early to set them into stone. In the role you mention though, where we move Tyreke off the ball to get his defender off balance--that sounds like a variation on a Princeton-Mike Bibby PG. Sure Tyreke will do very different things once he has the ball, but it requires about the same amount of PG abilities.

I guess you could run a Princeton-type offense with Tyreke where he makes a move towards the basket coming off screens instead of shooting. But I think there's a fundamental difference between Bibby & Evans that isn't going to change. My opinion is that no matter what superstar swingman you have, no matter how much you want the ball in his hands, you ALWAYS need a "classically trained" PG to make sure everything runs smoothly. Basically the thinking is this: guys like Kobe, Wade, and Evans (and many more) are guys where the coach would always say "OK Tyreke go get us some points". I think you need a guy that was developed as a PG when young where the coach would go and say "OK Mike [Bibby] go set up our offense".

Basically, I want a guy on the court whose sole job is to make sure we're running a play and to slow the team down when the team is being a bit too hasty with shots. Call a guy like Derek Fisher horrible if you want but his ability to slow things down when needed and make sure the team is running a play are invaluable even though Kobe's going to have the ball in his hands for a lot of the time.

That, IMO, is the difference between a guy like Bibby & Tyreke. Bibby was enough of a PG that he could play that "OK let's slow it down" or "run play Y" role (a lot of it is instincts built up over the years IMO) whereas I just don't think Tyreke can do that. I'm not sure if I'd WANT him to do that because one of his strongest suits is being able to attack attack attack.

Going back to my main point though, Tyreke is fresh out of a college system (and I would assume high school was like this for him as well) where he kind of was everything. I think it's natural for him to be very ball-dominant right now. And he most certainly is. I agree that it's a problem for the offense, but I also think it's the kind of thing that can improve. Lots of guys come into the league having just carried their college team--Cisco comes to mind as a guy who had the same problem when he first entered the league. He was used to having to carry the whole team. It will take Tyreke some time, but I think he can at least get out of that mentality. He'll probably always be a little ball-dominant, but I don't think he'll necessarily always be the ball-stopper he currently is.

Yeah, one way of looking at this is that we can wait for Evans to (hopefully) develop into a player who isn't so ball dominant. My way of fixing it is to simply put him in a position that takes advantage of his strengths but where he WON'T need to be so ball dominant.

In general, I think it's just too early to make some definite projections. There may come a time when moving Kevin makes sense, but I just think we need to wait and see how some of these guys turn out--and not even just Tyreke. We still need to see how Spencer and Jason are going to grow more. Again, very nice post though--a lot of good thoughts.

True. Though, I'm very much in agreement with the old saying "better to trade them 1 year early than 1 year too late". Usually this just refers to aging players but I also think it fits with this team because of the on-court chemistry/roles and how they could eventually damage value or inhibit growth. With that said, I'm a little terrified that we take the approach of "let's wait and see" and end up waiting TOO LONG only to find out what we all thought was true from the start (or early on at the very least).

[pillwenney]

I have no reason to put him down for the safe of putting it down, and it's funny because I honestly think you're being a little homerish. Efficiency this and efficiency that while totally disregarding what little else he does for the team. His efficiency is special but when it comes down to it, it's not winning us any games. Y'all see a lot of points and give him a pass but not me. We'll see how well the team handles playing without Martin, and I don't think it'll be the disaster most are predicting, not anymore than it has been anyway.

People had trouble of letting go of Peja too, but they eventually turned around and realized it was better for the team.

It's not like he's bad at anything else. He's at worst a below-average playmaker (and that seems to be improving so far this year), and again, when he doesn't have to carry the load, he's fine defensively, and he's a fine rebounder. He's not great at anything else, but he's not horrible either. It's not like he's Eddy Curry circa 06-07 where he's a good scorer and horrendous at everything else (as opposed to current Eddy Curry, who is just useless).

And we're not not winning games because of Kevin. That is completely ridiculous. That would be a valid argument if anybody here was saying that Kevin should be this team's leader, but nobody is saying that. If you're using that argument there, then you have to use the same argument for everybody that was on the team last year.

And nobody is saying that he doesn't have weaknesses, nor are we giving him a pass. We're just actually recognizing that he is a very valuable, and that we shouldn't just trade simply because he's not an amazing defender.

"Letting Peja go" was better for the team because we got Ron freaking Artest for him. And yet again, I'll say that I am fine trading Kevin for the right deal. You seem to want to just trade him for the sake of trading him. That is just plain irrational.

And I'll also say this--Peja was a damn good player for us for many years. I don't know where this idea is coming from that Peja was some kind of negative presence on the team. He wasn't at all. Just because the team never should have tried to build around him (and I'll repeat it yet again--nobody is saying the team should build around Kevin), it doesn't mean he wasn't still a damn good, useful player for the Kings. He was traded when he was because he has basically phoned it in as a King, his injuries were greatly effecting him as a player (Kevin may be injured a lot, but we rarely see it affect him a whole lot when he's on the court), and most importantly, we were able to get a more useful player for him who we were more able to build around. Also, losing Chris and Vlade lead to a very sharp drop in efficiency--which is a big difference between them by the way. Kevin's efficiency has dropped a little without somebody else running things, but his TS% was still above 60 last year.

If any of those things happen--if Kevin ever seems to stop trying, if his injuries lead to him clearly declining as a player, or (again, most importantly), we can trade him for somebody more beneficial to our team, I'll be all for trading him. Until then, I'm going to choose to recognize that a guy that scores at an absurdly efficient rate for somebody with his scoring responsibilities while not being bad at any other part of the game is a player that is helpful to our team.

[pillwenney]

I guess you could run a Princeton-type offense with Tyreke where he makes a move towards the basket coming off screens instead of shooting. But I think there's a fundamental difference between Bibby & Evans that isn't going to change. My opinion is that no matter what superstar swingman you have, no matter how much you want the ball in his hands, you ALWAYS need a "classically trained" PG to make sure everything runs smoothly. Basically the thinking is this: guys like Kobe, Wade, and Evans (and many more) are guys where the coach would always say "OK Tyreke go get us some points". I think you need a guy that was developed as a PG when young where the coach would go and say "OK Mike [Bibby] go set up our offense".

Basically, I want a guy on the court whose sole job is to make sure we're running a play and to slow the team down when the team is being a bit too hasty with shots. Call a guy like Derek Fisher horrible if you want but his ability to slow things down when needed and make sure the team is running a play are invaluable even though Kobe's going to have the ball in his hands for a lot of the time.

That, IMO, is the difference between a guy like Bibby & Tyreke. Bibby was enough of a PG that he could play that "OK let's slow it down" or "run play Y" role (a lot of it is instincts built up over the years IMO) whereas I just don't think Tyreke can do that. I'm not sure if I'd WANT him to do that because one of his strongest suits is being able to attack attack attack.

I don't see why Tyreke can't kind of play both of those roles. Great PGs know when they have to slow things up and set up, but then can also be great attackers in an offense. Paul, Deron, Payton--just off the top of my head. They're all guys that kind of fit that profile. Tyreke may look to score more than them, but I think the mentality can be the same.

Also, I don't think it would necessarily be that hard to find a SF in that mold--with that kind of mentality if nothing else.

Yeah, one way of looking at this is that we can wait for Evans to (hopefully) develop into a player who isn't so ball dominant. My way of fixing it is to simply put him in a position that takes advantage of his strengths but where he WON'T need to be so ball dominant.

True. Though, I'm very much in agreement with the old saying "better to trade them 1 year early than 1 year too late". Usually this just refers to aging players but I also think it fits with this team because of the on-court chemistry/roles and how they could eventually damage value or inhibit growth. With that said, I'm a little terrified that we take the approach of "let's wait and see" and end up waiting TOO LONG only to find out what we all thought was true from the start (or early on at the very least).

But it's so, so, so early. I mean we're 6 games into the guys career. That is a drop in the ocean. We need at least a year to really figure out what we've got here. And I don't think the side effects of that are really all that disastrous.

[rpa]

I don't see why Tyreke can't kind of play both of those roles. Great PGs know when they have to slow things up and set up, but then can also be great attackers in an offense. Paul, Deron, Payton--just off the top of my head. They're all guys that kind of fit that profile. Tyreke may look to score more than them, but I think the mentality can be the same.

I have very little confidence in Tyreke to play that kind of role (as a PG) mainly because of his pedigree. He could develop into that but as of right now I just don't see it at all.

Also, I don't think it would necessarily be that hard to find a SF in that mold--with that kind of mentality if nothing else.

I actually think it would be pretty hard. Sure there are guys who can pass and handle the ball as a "point forward" (Lamar Odom for example) but they don't really have the attributes I'm talking about. I actually think there's a big difference between a guy who can create shots for his teammates, handle the ball, and pass and a real PG.

But it's so, so, so early. I mean we're 6 games into the guys career. That is a drop in the ocean. We need at least a year to really figure out what we've got here. And I don't think the side effects of that are really all that disastrous.

My feeling is that we want to play to Tyreke's strengths and his strengths, to me, just aren't real PG strengths. Sure, he could develop them but I think at that point you're moving away from him playing to his strengths and towards a hybrid of "stuff he's average at" and "stuff he's really good at" at the expense of the team. I'd rather see us put him in a situation where he's playing off his strengths and where he isn't required to have other skills (but would still learn them).

[pillwenney]

I don't think it would be that hard to find a Doug Christie-esque point forward. Dough really took the ball up more than Mike did. Really the only requirement for that spot would be somebody with some kind of PG mentality and some abilities (along with the fact that we'd want them to be a good player, obviously)--that's of course assuming that Tyreke can't develop something like that.

I just think Tyreke's strengths are still very flexible. I don't really look at it as going away from his strengths, as much I look at as making him a more complete player. I just don't think that being able to control the pace of the game and being an attacking scorer are mutually exclusive. They may be for some players, but not necessarily for Tyreke.

[wiltchamberlain]

This is an interesting question. I'll share just a few thoughts.

Number one I don't see Kevin as ever being the number one guy on a great team. I think the vast majority of fans agree with this. While he is a very good scorer he just doesn't have the complete package that a star of that caliber requires.

As far as trading him goes I've see sawed on that several times in the last couple of years. Generally I've seen Kevin as being the single most valuable item on this team trading wise. There are a hell of a lot of teams he could make better right now, and his contract is at a price I think most could afford. However at the start of this season to just before the injury I was truly amazed at just how much the Kings really do rely on him, I knew he was the best player I just didn't realize how much the team would need him to score. I guess I expected more of an impact from Spencer and Justin on the scoring side this year (of course it is still early). Then on the other hand the Kings have a fantastic game tonight, and while Mitch is certainly correct to caution us from being too sure of this Kevinless team, it is nice to see that these players can step up at least on occasion. Also in general I think it's fair to question a player's scoring numbers when they're on a bad team. Certainly I think we all can name some players that when they were the lone guy on a terrible team looked great, but once they moved to a team with talent faded away.

I'll say this much, if we for the sake of argument assume for a second that Martin is out exactly eight weeks that means he should come back in early January. This would give him a month and a half to show how he has recovered. If he has recovered nicely I think you could have some nice options for him and Kenny during/right before the deadline.

These are just a couple of possibilities, I know there are likely many more but these are the ones that interest me the most. (and remember this is all completely hypothetical, I'm not saying the team should do any/all of these options or that they will even be available)

One, You could trade Kevin to a contending team in need of a bit more scoring punch. It's obviously to early to know who these teams might be but it seems like every year there is at least a couple of teams that fit into this category. You would likely trade for either an expiring or possibly some young talent.

Two, you might be able to trade him one for one or perhaps with some additional filler for a star player if that team you're trading with is experiencing some heavy financial difficulties. He does have a very affordable contract considering his potential talent.

Three, (I may be a little too optimistic here) you might be able to package him along with Kenny and really go after a true superstar. By the time the deadline comes around there are often a couple of teams with stars that are unhappy or in need of a fresh start, or maybe the team has underperformed and is considering rebuilding. This could be a viable option.

Four, This is the flip side of two. It is likely that by the time the trade deadline rolls around the Kings are in serious financial turmoil. In this event they may decide that the best option is to keep Kevin because of his affordable contract and exceptional production at that price.

[Wolfay]

wiltchamberlain basically said everything I wanted to, and even some things I overlooked. Kevin's greatest value may not be as a player on our team, but as a trade asset, and personally I don't think we would losing much anyway given the potential of our team. We can afford to trade him, and it would probably be in our benefit to do so.

[pillwenney]

Like I've said time and again, I'm not against trading Kevin in the right situation. I just don't think we should look to trade him before we know how he fits in with the team. He's far too valuable now, and potentially valuable in terms of how he fits in with the rest of the team. You don't trade a way away one of the league's best scorers just because "why not? Maybe you can get something good for him."

I think what I'm mostly arguing about here is the lack of context. You should never be in favor of just trading a player because you want to trade him.

And if that's not what you're saying, I'm not sure what we're arguing about. Nobody here is against improving the team. But there just aren't that many players that will help our team in the way Kevin Martin can, so you have to be picky with the return in a trade.

[HUBlackstar83]

The only way and I mean only way I would trade K-Mart is if we had a shot at John Wall in the draft. Wall and Evans make a scary 1-2 punch. With those two on board we could move K-Mart and get something good in return.

[darkadun]

Totally agree with Mitch.

Problem with trading KMart is who are we going to get in return? He is kind of inbetween talent levels. Not a true all-star right now, but better than most players in the league. I just can't see any "realistic deals" that would actually improve the kings.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

A month ago everyone was all excited about a Tyreke and Martin combo. We got four games of that and we all saw Martin playing at all star level.

His defense will never be anything above decent, but it's not so dreadfully bad.

IF a good deal comes along that helps the team, then sure. But we should not be actively seeking his departure.

People whine about Martin to much for my taste. If he's shooting well and getting to the line, people love him. When he's not getting the calls, people complain he's one dementional. If he's not driving to the basket, people complain about that, and when his high-octaine play gets his body injured, it's completely his fault.

Martin's no star, but he's a wounderful and underrated piece to this team.

[deNIEd]

My feeling is that we want to play to Tyreke's strengths and his strengths, to me, just aren't real PG strengths. Sure, he could develop them but I think at that point you're moving away from him playing to his strengths and towards a hybrid of "stuff he's average at" and "stuff he's really good at" at the expense of the team. I'd rather see us put him in a situation where he's playing off his strengths and where he isn't required to have other skills (but would still learn them).

Weirrrdddd. Haven't some of us pessimists been saying that since Evans was drafted? Weird, looks like I was right again.

The only way and I mean only way I would trade K-Mart is if we had a shot at John Wall in the draft. Wall and Evans make a scary 1-2 punch. With those two on board we could move K-Mart and get something good in return.

Absolutely not. Wall/Evans doesn't make a good backcourt. Both have similar offensive games. Both are attacking players that have a weaker outside shot. It would be similar to pairing Evans up with Rose/Wade/Rondo. Instead if Evans is truly the guy we want to keep, we need to look for a PG or SG along the molds of Paul/Deron/Nash/Roy.


However, this thread is stupid. Martin is by far our best player on this team. Without Martin we don't even crack 15 wins all season. Yes we won last night, but we almost lost. Utah played a horrible game, and we played our best game possible. It's idiotic to believe we can replicate last nights performance day in and day out, and believe that we are better off without Martin.

Now, Martin's injuries does two good things for the team, it boosts Udrih and Nocioni's value. We should be talking about not being greedy and trading both players for the first expiring we can find. Regardless of talent level.

[ICMTM]

I think Kevin is liability on defense, and I think tonight showed that we can be a solid defensive team without him. Kevin isn't a terrible defender, but people blow by him on a consistent basis.

On the other end, I think we get a little stagnant offensively because perhaps we rely on Martin too much to score. Martin didn't play tonight, so everybody had to shoulder the burden and they handled it well. The ball moves more when Martin is not on the court, IMO.

I've been on the trade Martin bandwagon for about a year now and although in the short term it would hurt us, I think as our team matures, we'll hardly miss him. We'll definitely need another guard though (John Wall?) because Evans can't do it all by himself.

I agree 100% here.

[dozencousins]

My feeling on this is basically the same as it was going into this season that K-mart would be dealt period this year my reasoning would be as some of you would agree & others wont .
Though we have so much potentail on this team thats basically all we have " Potential "

Will we get better ? YES
Can i see the " Potential " greatness in 3 or 4 of our players ? Yes
etc. etc.

The bottom line for me is K-MART is so much like PEJA he is a great scorer , great at the free throw line & even better than Peja at driving to the basket & creating IMO
Like Peja though he can't & doesn't play any defense & is more of a liability even more so know he is completely injury prone !

I feel he still will get dealt this year or the next if we are going to try to get way under the cap it must be this year then & i feel that would be tough as more teams will likely give alot less now for him i believe 12 million per year average for the next 4 years or so & though he was considered a bargain before by his talent level it is not so much the same situation now he was hurt last year & his injury this year is far worse wich makes him a huge risk to any team.

I say bottom line when he gets healthy enough & he has a string of really good / great games move him & fast as long as we get a great deal or at least a very good deal etc..


KINGS 4 LIFE .............................

[Nicky Nix Nook]

My feeling on this is basically the same as it was going into this season that K-mart would be dealt period this year my reasoning would be as some of you would agree & others wont .
Though we have so much potentail on this team thats basically all we have " Potential "

Will we get better ? YES
Can i see the " Potential " greatness in 3 or 4 of our players ? Yes
etc. etc.

The bottom line for me is K-MART is so much like PEJA he is a great scorer , great at the free throw line & even better than Peja at driving to the basket & creating IMO
Like Peja though he can't & doesn't play any defense & is more of a liability even more so know he is completely injury prone !

I feel he still will get dealt this year or the next if we are going to try to get way under the cap it must be this year then & i feel that would be tough as more teams will likely give alot less now for him i believe 12 million per year average for the next 4 years or so & though he was considered a bargain before by his talent level it is not so much the same situation now he was hurt last year & his injury this year is far worse wich makes him a huge risk to any team.

I say bottom line when he gets healthy enough & he has a string of really good / great games move him & fast as long as we get a great deal or at least a very good deal etc..


KINGS 4 LIFE .............................

Whoa Peja was a VERY underrated defender in his prime.

Fans of bad teams always suffer from "the grass is greener on the other side." Yes we aren't a good team, but trading Martin makes us worse.

[deNIEd]

I'm still in shock that people actually want to actively move Martin.

If a good deal come up for Martin, should we take it? Absolutely. In order to build a successful team, you have to be willing to trade every single player if it makes your team better.

Now, should we go out and shop Martin, simply because it'll make us "better" Absolutely not. Sacramento is the least talented team in the league, take away Martin, and we are that much worse. Has no one watched the first 3 games? Where, Martin was pretty much the only bright spot on the team (well also Casspri and Thompson).

Everyone wanted Webber gone, because we'd be better without him. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Peja gone, we traded him. We ended up worse. Everyone wanted Bibby gone. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Artest gone. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Salmons and Miller gone. They were traded. We got worse.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

I'm still in shock that people actually want to actively move Martin.

If a good deal come up for Martin, should we take it? Absolutely. In order to build a successful team, you have to be willing to trade every single player if it makes your team better.

Now, should we go out and shop Martin, simply because it'll make us "better" Absolutely not. Sacramento is the least talented team in the league, take away Martin, and we are that much worse. Has no one watched the first 3 games? Where, Martin was pretty much the only bright spot on the team (well also Casspri and Thompson).

Everyone wanted Webber gone, because we'd be better without him. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Peja gone, we traded him. We ended up worse. Everyone wanted Bibby gone. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Artest gone. He was traded. We got worse. Everyone wanted Salmons and Miller gone. They were traded. We got worse.

I agree with all this.

But Artest actually made us better at the time.

[It_Was_Typed]

Bobcats get: Kevin Martin
Kings get: Raymond Felton, Raja Bell and a future pick.

Just something I thought of.

[Smills91]

Bobcats get: Kevin Martin
Kings get: Raymond Felton, Raja Bell and a future pick.

Just something I thought of.

Kings give: Beno Udrih, Andres Nocioni for Gerald Wallace and DJ Augustin

Just something I thought of.