Should the Kings trade Martin?

[sl1mshad33]

Could Martin maybe be more effective coming off the bench and providing the Kings instant offense? I thin the Kings should keep him and try to figure out a role for him that will play to his strengths while at the same time complementing the play of the team.

[Fola314]

Here's is some thoughts about Kmart:

- The first few games of the season Martin was starting with Evans, Mason, Thompson, and May. Evans had a bad groin, and Thompson often was in foul trouble. As you all know we did very poorly in first quarters. Martin knew that he had to score because he was the most efficient scorer. One could argue our improvement over the last 4 games is due to having Mason and May out of the lineup, and we would have won those games with Martin as well. IMO the improvement that we are seeing now began in the Memphis game, and if not for one bad quarter against a good team, we might be on a 4 game winning streak right now.

- Martin averages more minutes (41.2) than anyone else on the team by a long shot. Obviously his FGA are going to be higher, as will the rest of his stats.

- Martin was the only player on the team that either knew or was ready for his role to start the season. Evans is a rookie and was adjusting to being a PG. Noc, Hawes, and Beno were coming off the bench where they are less comfortable. Thompson was basically playing center. Martin was the only player who was doing the same comfortable role he did last year. The way I see it, it took Westphal 5 games to figure out what works with this roster and put players in the right position to win.

People will argue that we would've played worse with Martin the last 2 games. I would like to point out that it is equally debatable that we could've have played even better with Martin the last 2 games.

[pillwenney]

Here's is some thoughts about Kmart:

- The first few games of the season Martin was starting with Evans, Mason, Thompson, and May. Evans had a bad groin, and Thompson often was in foul trouble. As you all know we did very poorly in first quarters. Martin knew that he had to score because he was the most efficient scorer. One could argue our improvement over the last 4 games is due to having Mason and May out of the lineup, and we would have won those games with Martin as well. IMO the improvement that we are seeing now began in the Memphis game, and if not for one bad quarter against a good team, we might be on a 4 game winning streak right now.

- Martin averages more minutes (41.2) than anyone else on the team by a long shot. Obviously his FGA are going to be higher, as will the rest of his stats.

- Martin was the only player on the team that either knew or was ready for his role to start the season. Evans is a rookie and was adjusting to being a PG. Noc, Hawes, and Beno were coming off the bench where they are less comfortable. Thompson was basically playing center. Martin was the only player who was doing the same comfortable role he did last year. The way I see it, it took Westphal 5 games to figure out what works with this roster and put players in the right position to win.

People will argue that we would've played worse with Martin the last 2 games. I would like to point out that it is equally debatable that we could've have played even better with Martin the last 2 games.

All good points.

[mobiuseinz]

Im sure all of us would do this trade http://www.realgm.com/src_checktrade.ph ... id=5274969

[pillwenney]

^^Not without a re-signed Bosh, I wouldn't.

Even then, it would be kind of a tough pill to swallow, just because of the Jason for Derozan aspect. I realize that's necessary, but it makes it tough. I would still probably do it though. But I doubt Toronto does.

Here, I'll even make a list of the guys I would maybe/probably trade Kevin for.

Lopez
maybe Harris (although I think he may be a worse fit with Tyreke)
Bosh (re-signed)
Rose
Lebron (re-signed)
Granger
Joe Johnson (re-signed)
Wade (re-signed)
Howard
Arenas
Anthony
Jefferson
Durant
Roy
Deron
Bynum
Oden
Bryant
Griffin
Duncan
Parker
Paul

The bolded ones are the only ones (well...one) I could conceivably see actually being available for Kevin--and only if they know he'll bolt. But in that circumstance, I think we could maybe low-ball them.

Young Guys that could be a possibility, depending on their play
Augustin - Hasn't been playing well so far this year, and I don't think Charlotte has the pieces to add in order to get Kevin.
E. Gordon - Clippers likely wouldn't do it.
Curry - Could be a nice fit with Tyreke, but he'd have to prove a lot for it to be worth trading Kevin for him, and the Warriors might not be interested.
Flynn - Same as Curry, except Minny is more likely to be interested, but I don't think he'll be as good of a fit with Tyreke.
Love - Doesn't exactly bring what we lack up front, but a possibility, I suppose--that is when Minny realizes that it needs an actual center at some point.
Horford - Couldn't see Atlanta doing it, as nice young centers are hard to come by. But I think Horford would be the perfect 3rd big for us.
Jennings - Not a great fit, and extremely unlikely that Milwaukee could do it. Really only on here because of how he has played so far.
Hibbert - Again, not likely as he is the clear center of the future.
Biedrins - Not likely for several reasons from both sides
Gallinari - Still very early, but looking nice. Unlikely the Knicks do it for a number of reasons.

Notable players who I wouldn't trade Kevin for
Iguodala - Terrible fit with Tyreke
Westbrook - Also a terrible fit with Tyreke
Nelson - A good fit, but just not enough value
Stoudemire - Has his own injury problems, will likely cost more, you can't build around him, and he has openly discussed how he basically doesn't want to have to play D.
Bargnani - Looking like a nice young player, but just not at all what we need from our bigs.
Yao - Giant injury concerns
Jeff Green - Meh...and OKC wouldn't do it anyway
Josh Smith - Nice shotblocker, but still not really that much of an interior presence.
Boozer - Going to be a FA, and not a good fit for what we need up front.
Rondo - Probably not good enough, and just not a great fit for either side in any way.
Pretty much any great player in their 30's outside of extreme circumstances (Kobe, Duncan)
Beasley - No thanks. Don't need his problems.
Butler - Also injured a lot, not a great fit, and surprisingly enough, going to turn 30 this year.

There might be some people I'm missing, but I can't think of any. Point being, there just aren't many viable circumstances for trading Kevin.

[ICMTM]

Here's is some thoughts about Kmart:

- The first few games of the season Martin was starting with Evans, Mason, Thompson, and May. Evans had a bad groin, and Thompson often was in foul trouble. As you all know we did very poorly in first quarters. Martin knew that he had to score because he was the most efficient scorer. One could argue our improvement over the last 4 games is due to having Mason and May out of the lineup, and we would have won those games with Martin as well. IMO the improvement that we are seeing now began in the Memphis game, and if not for one bad quarter against a good team, we might be on a 4 game winning streak right now.

- Martin averages more minutes (41.2) than anyone else on the team by a long shot. Obviously his FGA are going to be higher, as will the rest of his stats.

- Martin was the only player on the team that either knew or was ready for his role to start the season. Evans is a rookie and was adjusting to being a PG. Noc, Hawes, and Beno were coming off the bench where they are less comfortable. Thompson was basically playing center. Martin was the only player who was doing the same comfortable role he did last year. The way I see it, it took Westphal 5 games to figure out what works with this roster and put players in the right position to win.

People will argue that we would've played worse with Martin the last 2 games. I would like to point out that it is equally debatable that we could've have played even better with Martin the last 2 games.

I agree with what you are saying, BUT (and it's a big but) is this #1 20+ shots a game best suited for Kevin Martin's game? I say no!

For the record I'm only for trading Martin IF we can get someone of equal value for him. If anything I'd like to see Evans with the ball more and Martin with the ball less. Trading Martin (or any player) is something I'm for IF it makes us better.

[Fola314]

^ICMTM I agree as well. It would be better if Kevin was a #2, taking 15 shots a game with tremendous efficiency. Agree also that trading Martin only if we get equal value, but as Mitch points out, I have no clue what player, if any, would make sense for us.

Its almost like when Peja was suddenly thrust into the #1 player role. That team was more balanced however, but it just wasn't a good fit for Peja and he quickly fell apart after 1 great season.

I just wanted to make some counterpoints against the idea that we are a better team when Martin is not on the floor.

[pillwenney]

I agree with what you are saying, BUT (and it's a big but) is this #1 20+ shots a game best suited for Kevin Martin's game? I say no!

For the record I'm only for trading Martin IF we can get someone of equal value for him. If anything I'd like to see Evans with the ball more and Martin with the ball less. Trading Martin (or any player) is something I'm for IF it makes us better.

I agree with all of this. As I've said many times in both of these threads, I am not saying Kevin is a first option. He is at his best as a second option, playing off the ball (with Tyreke and Spencer controlling things). What I am mostly arguing, I think, is the idea that it's really a major part of Kevin's game to dominate the ball and try to be a #1 option at all costs. The vast majority of history shows us that that's not true.

[darkadun]

What I am mostly arguing, I think, is the idea that it's really a major part of Kevin's game to dominate the ball and try to be a #1 option at all costs. The vast majority of history shows us that that's not true.

Totally Agreed.

Looking at KMart's numbers the past 3 seasons, he has taken a average of 15 shots a game, and scored 20.2, 23.7 & 24.6ppg consecutively. Thats freaking incredible, when you think about it.
So I agree he does not have to have the ball alot to be effective, especially with his ability to catch and shoot as quickly as he does.

[Dr Manhattan]

Kevin Martin for Ben Gordon would be a good look for the Kings. Evans+Gordon would be outstanding.

[Joseph17]

Kevin Martin for Ben Gordon would be a good look for the Kings. Evans+Gordon would be outstanding.

I think Martin complements Evans perfectly as well. One player needs the ball to be effective and the other is much better playing off the ball. I just don't think Evans is good enough to be the number 1 option for the team right now and when he becomes good enough Martin will be declining.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Ben Gordon is very overrated and far more of a ball hog than Kevin. If people think Kevin is a ball hog, they really need to get their eyes checked. He has flaws, but trying to be a one man show is NOT one of them.

[ICMTM]

I agree with what you are saying, BUT (and it's a big but) is this #1 20+ shots a game best suited for Kevin Martin's game? I say no!

For the record I'm only for trading Martin IF we can get someone of equal value for him. If anything I'd like to see Evans with the ball more and Martin with the ball less. Trading Martin (or any player) is something I'm for IF it makes us better.

I agree with all of this. As I've said many times in both of these threads, I am not saying Kevin is a first option. He is at his best as a second option, playing off the ball (with Tyreke and Spencer controlling things). What I am mostly arguing, I think, is the idea that it's really a major part of Kevin's game to dominate the ball and try to be a #1 option at all costs. The vast majority of history shows us that that's not true.

The growing trend in Kevin's eyes is to be more aggressive scoring the rock versus getting people involved with his scoring. He's only said so in his interviews. Of course not in those words but basically he's looking for his own shot. I'd like to see him score as a result of ball movement versus isolation and running at people to get to the line.

I don't think Kevin is a player with an ego yet. I just think that right now his idea of what the Kings need to do and what we see aren't in line at all. Then again I don't think anyone would have said Reke, Thompson, and Udrih were going to play this well so soon. I think people need to look at their contributions in addition to Kevin's chuckeresque play. I think Kevin is a guy who can look at the situation and with the coaches come up with a way to improve on what we have. I don't see him as a guy that's going to say "I'm back! Give me my ball back."

Before we get carried away here remember this. My knock on Beno from day one has been can he play consistent ball the entire season? Thompson has had a few good games, but he's not a seasoned vet. Reke will have ups and downs as a rookie, too. This is why I think we should wait until the end of Martin's injury stint to see where we are at. I completely agree that for the past season he's shooting too much, but I don't think it's because he had to. That will need to be resolved regardless!

[Wolfay]

Agree completely with ICMTM. I didn't completely buy the whole "out of necessity" argument either, but we'll see what happens in the next couple of months and then how well we adjust to having Kevin back at the end of those two months.

[10B10]

I pretty much agree with the consensus of this thread. There's nothing to warrant the knee-jerk reaction of "trade Kevin - we are better off without him." We have looked good in two games without him, but that isn't enough to conclude that he can't fit in with this team. Martin is great at what he does and will find a role on this Kings team that makes us an overall better team. We only played five games with him - it takes longer than that to figure out exactly how everything fits together.

However, of course, if the right trade comes through, then there should be nothing that keeps us from pulling the trigger. But, if there is anything we have learned from the last five years as Kings fans, it is that trading a player simply for the sake of trading that player doesn't build a better team. Unless we are coming away with young players that legitimately make the Kings a more talented team, then trading Martin does nothing better than trading Webber, Mike, Peja, or Ron. But, this time, we are talking about a 26 year old kid that should be an asset to our future.

Let him find his role with this team! Don't just trade him away or think that we are just as good without him. If we are just as good without him, then there is something wrong with how this team is coached and managed, not with Kevin, himself.

[0n9jai]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

[pillwenney]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

Not usually, no, and no.

You need to watch more of Kevin Martin.

[a-rod]

I agree with what you are saying, BUT (and it's a big but) is this #1 20+ shots a game best suited for Kevin Martin's game? I say no!

For the record I'm only for trading Martin IF we can get someone of equal value for him. If anything I'd like to see Evans with the ball more and Martin with the ball less. Trading Martin (or any player) is something I'm for IF it makes us better.

I agree with all of this. As I've said many times in both of these threads, I am not saying Kevin is a first option. He is at his best as a second option, playing off the ball (with Tyreke and Spencer controlling things). What I am mostly arguing, I think, is the idea that it's really a major part of Kevin's game to dominate the ball and try to be a #1 option at all costs. The vast majority of history shows us that that's not true.

Yep, that just about sums it up, martin very efficient scorer and hes at his best moving without the ball and thats what makes him great second option.

Are we better team without him?
No, if anyone take a true fair and balanced assessment of this team will realize that our offense looked very good, the defense is reason why we lose close games.

[Smills91]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

Not usually, no, and no.

You need to watch more of Kevin Martin.

I'm really surprised he didn't offer up Banks, Wright and POB for Martin after that ignorant rant.

[kombayn]

Honestly if the Kings are able to get John Wall, it's time to trade K-Mart then. You can get quality bench players and expiring contracts for him plus a 1st Round Pick on top of that. Why not do the trade? Go into a true rebuilding mode. A starting core of John Wall, Tyreke Evans, Omri Casspi, Jason Thompson & Spencer Hawes is solid. That's why you built your bench around quality likable veterans. They should keep Beno Udrih, I think he would be a solid back-up for Mr. Wall. Other than that I like the team and it looks like you can be more competitive than people expected this season.