Should the Kings trade Martin?

[Anton]

I think Martin has only one problem- he doesnt trust his team. I hope that will change as the season progress. It is just too early to tell if the trade is needed.

[0n9jai]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

Not usually, no, and no.

You need to watch more of Kevin Martin.

I've been watching every game this year focusing on Kevin every possession, so dude so no what?

[Joseph17]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

Not usually, no, and no.

You need to watch more of Kevin Martin.

I've been watching every game this year focusing on Kevin every possession, so dude so no what?

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

ummm I starting to like the idea of Martin off the bench

[deNIEd]

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

To be fair, he has been demanding the ball far more this year. However, that's simply due to the fact that our team sucks, and Martin has put it on himself to carry the team in situations. In no way,does that mean he's a "ball hog" or anything even close to it.

[nolimit0820]

Give it time people...be proud of the team, as each player is really showing that they are capable basketball players. Trading Kevin (given the right circumstances) is a fair assessment, but no way do you consider it at this point in time.

There have been no reasonable trades even put out there. An unsigned Chris Bosh? Personally, I feel that trading him is pointless. The only logical argument is that Kevin does not necessarily get it done on the defensive end. Otherwise, the cohesiveness that we can see with this unit + kevin could produce some quality basketball. Kevin has proven that he can play within a team concept. The team that Petrie is putting together is one that will thrive with all 5 guys playing together due to a threat at every position. Just give it time and let things settle. We still do not even know what we have.

[Nicky Nix Nook]

I won't hate on Martin for demanding the ball. Isn't that what everyone wanted? To be able to put the team on his back? To develop some swag?

Martin just didn't know what he had. Now I believe he does. I hope when Martin comes back he plays within the team. As long as that happens we could do some SERIOUS damage.

Martin off the bench could be a good idea. Evans looks comfortable at the 2 (I said it) and Beno is holding it down at the one.

Still, I'm not opposed to truly see if an Evans/Martin backcourt could succeed. I think Evans playing well COULD be just a coincidence (not necessarily due to position).

[nolimit0820]

I think Beno is having a larger impact then what the stat sheet indicates. If he can keep up the way he is playing, a three guard rotation of kmart evans and beno could be very deadly

Should be interesting when Kmart returns. I too feel that he will see what his teammates are capable of while sitting out and will fit his role beautifully when healthy

[ICMTM]

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

Wrong!!!

You don't get to the line as much as he does playing off the ball! Rip and Especially Reggie will run off screen after screen to catch and shoot. Martin used to look like that's where his game was headed but now he's nowhere near an off the ball 2. Kevin needs leather to be effective because he decided he's that kind of player. I'm sure there is encouragement for his play though.

[RoyalCourtJestr]

Beno and Tyreke is a great combo... but we never got to really see how a Kevin/Tyreke backcourt looks. There is no doubt in my mind that the second Kevin is healthy, he should/will/deserves to start and we'll finally see how much Martin/Tyreke can work together.

[pillwenney]

Kevin Martin shoots wayy tooo much, hogs the ball alot and doesn't play defense. It's best to let him go and let Tyreke runs the team and draft a wicked big man like Derrick Favors in the draft next yr, Thompson is good but not a stud. The upcoming draft is considered one of the best because its piled w/ stud big men, so get Favors and develop him and then you'll see tyreke and Favors running the team like Deron/Boozer, Nash/Stoudamire and etc.

So Kevin Martin has got to go!

Not usually, no, and no.

You need to watch more of Kevin Martin.

I've been watching every game this year focusing on Kevin every possession, so dude so no what?

Every one of the 5 games he played in this year for a team that was still trying to figure out its talent. Look at Kevin's career and you'll see that's not true at all. He doesn't hog the ball. He usually plays off the ball--outside of last year and these first few games since he had no one to play off of, he usually doesn't take more than 16 shots a game--and that was as a first option last year, and oh by the way it's tough not to justify that, considering how efficiently he scores.

And his defense is average. It's not spectacular, but saying that he doesn't play it is a gross overstatement.

It's amazing to me the amount of people who are basing entire judgments of Kevin off of what he did in the first few games of a season with several new teammates.

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

Wrong!!!

You don't get to the line as much as he does playing off the ball! Rip and Especially Reggie will run off screen after screen to catch and shoot. Martin used to look like that's where his game was headed but now he's nowhere near an off the ball 2. Kevin needs leather to be effective because he decided he's that kind of player. I'm sure there is encouragement for his play though.

That's just completely untrue. He has started to play with the ball in his hands more because he had no choice. Who was he supposed to play off of last year? John Salmons for the first half? Has anyone ever really played off of John Salmons? Or was he supposed to play off of the great barely over 2/1 assist/TO ratio Beno Udrih? Kevin became the guy we gave the ball too because we traded Ron. It's that simple.

[Joseph17]

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

Wrong!!!

You don't get to the line as much as he does playing off the ball! Rip and Especially Reggie will run off screen after screen to catch and shoot. Martin used to look like that's where his game was headed but now he's nowhere near an off the ball 2. Kevin needs leather to be effective because he decided he's that kind of player. I'm sure there is encouragement for his play though.

It is possible to get to the line playing off the ball. Instead of coming off screens and shooting 3's Kevin might take a dribble and shoot it or drive all the way to the rim and get fouled. He also gets to the rim by cutting to the basket.

[ICMTM]

I don't know how you could say he hogs the ball when he primarily plays off the ball. Calling him a ball hog is like calling Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton a ball hog. He's also by far the best scorer on the team. The team's best scorer should be the one taking the most shots. If he was a volume shooter and he was missing shots I would say that you have a point. He's neither of the above. He's also averaging 45% from 3 pt range this year so I have no idea why you'd want a great scorer/shooter like him to shoot less.

Wrong!!!

You don't get to the line as much as he does playing off the ball! Rip and Especially Reggie will run off screen after screen to catch and shoot. Martin used to look like that's where his game was headed but now he's nowhere near an off the ball 2. Kevin needs leather to be effective because he decided he's that kind of player. I'm sure there is encouragement for his play though.

That's just completely untrue. He has started to play with the ball in his hands more because he had no choice. Who was he supposed to play off of last year? John Salmons for the first half? Has anyone ever really played off of John Salmons? Or was he supposed to play off of the great barely over 2/1 assist/TO ratio Beno Udrih? Kevin became the guy we gave the ball too because we traded Ron. It's that simple.

That's plain dumb because in the 30 games he didn't play in his offensive abilities weren't missed. Our scoring output didn't drop. The same trend is happening now, except we are playing better defense. I think Kmart can be an asset, but the more he holds the leather the less I care for his game. Really this isn't any new argument I've created. I've said this since it was a possibility that KMart would be "the guy" on the team. My words pretty much were if Kevin Martin is the guy on the team we aren't going to be very good.

In his absence we're looking good.

[pillwenney]

That's plain dumb because in the 30 games he didn't play in his offensive abilities weren't missed. Our scoring output didn't drop. The same trend is happening now, except we are playing better defense. I think Kmart can be an asset, but the more he holds the leather the less I care for his game. Really this isn't any new argument I've created. I've said this since it was a possibility that KMart would be "the guy" on the team. My words pretty much were if Kevin Martin is the guy on the team we aren't going to be very good.

In his absence we're looking good.

Our scoring output did drop, and it's not by an insignificant amount. The numbers back this up. The team averaged a few points less per game without (I'm assuming this part since I can't figure any reason why it would happen), a real change in pace, and they had a worse winning percentage (though it was horrible in every circumstance). And this is even considering that most of Kevin's missed games were when the team still had John Salmons (the only other King last year who could consistently create his own shot, and thus somebody who could have possibly filled Kevin's void).

Regardless, I really don't see how that addresses my argument at all--which is that Kevin was given the ball a lot more last year when the team didn't have anyone to really play off of. The year before, the team (including Kevin) largely played off of Ron. If you want to argue that Kevin had no effect on the scoring output last year, it would be a fruitless argument not only because it's statistically untrue, but because it goes toward the thing I'm agreeing with you on--Kevin is best used as an off-the-ball player. I agree that he shouldn't be "the guy", and I have said this many times.

Again, I am arguing that Kevin is not naturally a ball-dominant scorer. I would ask again, what would you have had him do differently last year? Who was he supposed to play off of? And if you can't answer that, how can you blame him for being more ball-dominant last year, and how can you say that, based off of that and a whopping 5 games to start this year (which I've already argued about a lot--especially why we are doing well without him), that that is really who he is as a player?

Edit: Just to specify, I just ran the numbers (I had done it before, but apparently you didn't see the post--which is fine). Without Martin last year, the Kings averaged 95.45 points per game. Over all, they averaged 100.6 points per game. Unless, I screwed up the Math, that means the Kings averaged 103.7PPG with Martin last year. That's a big difference. The Kings were 5-26 without Martin last year, and 12-39 with him. Not a huge difference over all, but a difference just the same.

[ICMTM]

Because you're coming at it like the role had to be handed down to someone. When Ron 1st got here and we had Bonzi, Shareef, etc there wasn't a go to guy. No one player had to have the rock and it worked better. Why because Ron Artest was traded does Kevin Martin have to be an heir to the ball.

Maybe that's why we saw two head coaches shown the door last season?

To your numbers:

We had other players come on and off the roster last season, so it's not as easy as "Kevin's gone do the math." I'm approaching it from the same logic this season as last where the opportunities to score have been there with or without Kevin Martin. Even still I'll concede your point. Do the numbers through 8 games this season say the same thing though?

[a-rod]

A.No matter how good Evans is he still needs sidekick and i cant think of anyone better then martin(for reasons already been stated)...

B. this is probably premature, but KM & TE back-court has the potential to be as good as good Billups & Hamilton, think about it CB & TE has similar game and both came out of collage as overpowering combo guards, KM is basically RH with better range and slashing ability...

C.Hey Kings fans before you throw martin under the bus and wrongfully accuse him that hes egotistic ball hog, give him a chance to redeem himself, don't kick him while hes down wait until he come back.

D.in a winning team the supporting cast always adjust to their best player, if our best player is TE, KM would have no problems adjusting to him especially since they both compliment each-other :

KM strength: outside-shooting and moving without the ball
KM weakness: ball-handling and creating for others

TE strength: ball-handling and creating for others
TE weakness: outside-shooting and moving without the ball

Both are good Slashers....

Mitchweber, you are doing a good job responding to this nnonsense, i have bean reading this nonsense all over the web(sacbee, kingsfans.com), think you for being the voice of the reason...

[pillwenney]

Because you're coming at it like the role had to be handed down to someone. When Ron 1st got here and we had Bonzi, Shareef, etc there wasn't a go to guy. No one player had to have the rock and it worked better. Why because Ron Artest was traded does Kevin Martin have to be an heir to the ball.

Maybe that's why we saw two head coaches shown the door last season?

To your numbers:

We had other players come on and off the roster last season, so it's not as easy as "Kevin's gone do the math." I'm approaching it from the same logic this season as last where the opportunities to score have been there with or without Kevin Martin. Even still I'll concede your point. Do the numbers through 8 games this season say the same thing though?

Because the team did run mostly through Ron once Bonzi was gone and SAR got hurt. Well, Ron and Brad. There's still always going to be a guy your team goes to the most. Even early in the decade, when our team was known for unselfish play, the ball still clearly went to Webber more than anyone else. The ball went to Kevin last year because there was nobody else. He was very clearly our best scorer, and we had no way of getting him the ball in a better scoring position (as we had in the past), so the offense largely became giving the ball to Kevin in isolation. I'm certainly not saying it was a good option. I'm merely saying that Kevin shouldn't be blamed for having no one to play off of.

I'm sure the numbers don't come out in favor of Kevin so far, but I've already explained the extinuating circumstances as to why the team is performing better now (not to mention it was a tiny sample size with Kevin).

[ICMTM]

Because you're coming at it like the role had to be handed down to someone. When Ron 1st got here and we had Bonzi, Shareef, etc there wasn't a go to guy. No one player had to have the rock and it worked better. Why because Ron Artest was traded does Kevin Martin have to be an heir to the ball.

Maybe that's why we saw two head coaches shown the door last season?

To your numbers:

We had other players come on and off the roster last season, so it's not as easy as "Kevin's gone do the math." I'm approaching it from the same logic this season as last where the opportunities to score have been there with or without Kevin Martin. Even still I'll concede your point. Do the numbers through 8 games this season say the same thing though?

Because the team did run mostly through Ron once Bonzi was gone and SAR got hurt. Well, Ron and Brad. There's still always going to be a guy your team goes to the most. Even early in the decade, when our team was known for unselfish play, the ball still clearly went to Webber more than anyone else. The ball went to Kevin last year because there was nobody else. He was very clearly our best scorer, and we had no way of getting him the ball in a better scoring position (as we had in the past), so the offense largely became giving the ball to Kevin in isolation. I'm certainly not saying it was a good option. I'm merely saying that Kevin shouldn't be blamed for having no one to play off of.

I'm sure the numbers don't come out in favor of Kevin so far, but I've already explained the extinuating circumstances as to why the team is performing better now (not to mention it was a tiny sample size with Kevin).

Webber was clearly worthy of having the ball all the time. Kevin never was. Martin is a 10-15 shot attempts per game guy at a maximum. If you felt it was NECESSARY for Kev to shoot so much I don't agree, and I'll leave it at that.

To A-Rod. I'm not arguing for Kevin to be moved but I am arguing to have his shots reduced upon returning to the lineup.

[pillwenney]

Webber was clearly worthy of having the ball all the time. Kevin never was. Martin is a 10-15 shot attempts per game guy at a maximum. If you felt it was NECESSARY for Kev to shoot so much I don't agree, and I'll leave it at that.

To A-Rod. I'm not arguing for Kevin to be moved but I am arguing to have his shots reduced upon returning to the lineup.

Sure, and that's one reason those teams were more successful than last year's team. But the question still remains: What other option did that team have? Nobody on that team had the talent to be a playmaking centerpiece. Kevin was easily better at creating his own shot than just about anybody else--particularly after the Salmons trade--and he had no one else to play off of. And we shouldn't assume that that is what his game is all about now because that was what had to happen last year.

And particularly now (since unlike last year, we have some capable talent around Kevin), I am all for lowering his shot attempts. I certainly never think he should only be around 10 shots per game, but I think 15 is good. But I think the more important issue is to make sure he's not a primary ballhandler/playmaker. That's not playing to his strengths.

[ICMTM]

Webber was clearly worthy of having the ball all the time. Kevin never was. Martin is a 10-15 shot attempts per game guy at a maximum. If you felt it was NECESSARY for Kev to shoot so much I don't agree, and I'll leave it at that.

To A-Rod. I'm not arguing for Kevin to be moved but I am arguing to have his shots reduced upon returning to the lineup.

Sure, and that's one reason those teams were more successful than last year's team. But the question still remains: What other option did that team have? Nobody on that team had the talent to be a playmaking centerpiece. Kevin was easily better at creating his own shot than just about anybody else--particularly after the Salmons trade--and he had no one else to play off of. And we shouldn't assume that that is what his game is all about now because that was what had to happen last year.

And particularly now (since unlike last year, we have some capable talent around Kevin), I am all for lowering his shot attempts. I certainly never think he should only be around 10 shots per game, but I think 15 is good. But I think the more important issue is to make sure he's not a primary ballhandler/playmaker. That's not playing to his strengths.

Kevin isn't a play maker for other people, and yes he should have shot the ball the most, but not been able to hold it and try to create for himself. Truth be told John Salmons was a better creator than Martin. Salmons however played in a bigger vacuum than Kevin did.

It's roughly the same talent from a year ago with the exception of Tyreke, who didn't start playing well until Kevin was out of the lineup. I can't say that Caspi is an upgrade from Garcia so again I don't think we needed to go the route of give Kevin the ball and watch.