2023 NBA Draft

[HiDef]

Been seeing some surprising love for Whitmore lately. Pelton's stats-only model has him first in the class, and Vecenie has him 3rd on his board ahead of Miller. I have some real concerns about his feel for the game but that definitely gives me pause

No denying that he can get a bucket in isolation. There really is a little bit of young LeBron to his game.. You know what he's going to do, and he does it anyways

[The Moose]

Personally I have Jarace Walker as the 2nd best defensive prospect in this draft, then Black, and Hendricks fourth.

Same top 3 for me, though I think personally Cason would be 4th

[Duke4life831]

Yes, the Okoro comp is valid and fits very well... Okoro has been really underwhelming so far. He barely improved so far.

He averages a 9.7 PER in 3 seasons in the NBA. Single digit PER for a former 5th pick. Can we label him a bust yet?

Now look at that: if you go to Okoro's page in College BBallRef, he's listed at 6'6''. Link.

But if you go to his NBA's page on BBallRef, he's listed at 6'5''. Link.

How about that? Which one should we trust? I'd rather trust my eyes, sir. Same thing with Whitmore, Mathurin and countless others.

We dont need to guess Whitmore's height though. He's 6'5.75" barefoot. That was done at the combine, that is as official as a measurement as we can get.

I also dont think Okoro is a bad comp, but just because he didnt workout doesnt mean all guys with similar comps dont work out. Miles Bridges is a very similar physical comp and skill comp at the same age. Bridges was a 20/7 guy on +3% TS% before he was an idiot off the court.

I dont think he has the same passing skills as Bridges at the same age, but I think he is a quicker and faster athlete and has the better handles than Bridges at the same age. I also think he is the better defender than Bridges at the same age.

I honestly feel bad for people that believe the "official" numbers. It'll never not be funny to me. Even when they show guys being measured (like with Bilal recently) the guys measuring aren't pushing down on their hair. That alone can account for 1/4" to 2" in height depending on the hairstyle. They are measuring shoe soles from the outside but not whether there are inserted mid-sole lifts inside which can account for another 1/4" to 1/2". These flaws in the system are exacerbated when it's done at "personal" combines. Then you have the influence of agents greasing palms for more favorable results. At the end of the day, the "official" measurements are almost guaranteed to be inflated. There's very little chance Whitmore is 6'5.75" barefoot with a bald head. Even his poor wingspan actually backs up him being shorter.

Haha then having any discussion about height numbers is beyond pointless. Can’t trust individual measurements, can’t trust the eye test because of the angle of the camera and if someone is slouching, and can’t trust official measurements from NBA’s official combine.

[76ciology]

Sensa is that high because if he’s healthy, he can be a 20-25ppg type scorer in the league with efficiency. At worst that’s derozan-lavine-beal type value. That archetype is valued a lot more than Jerami Grant type archetype with whitemore-Hendricks-thompson twins.

One question about this. If Sensabaugh isn't going to be a capable defender, he might not even be able to get into games to show his chops at the pro level. TJ Warren and Cam Thomas are elite scorers as well, but it's the other side that doesn't keep them on the floor. You have to list those types as well. And I know TJ gets injured a lot so it's not exactly fair.

Depends on which team he lands. As a Sixers fan, i’ve seen how Seth Curry, Jj Redick and Harden were part of the best defensive units in the league. You can hide guys on defense if you have the roster and scheme, while guys can be better on defense as long as they have size, mobility, better condition and willingness.

Im also very high on Cam Thomas, I think if he was drafted by the Rockets or the Pistons with a top 5 pick, he’d be averaging 20+ppg by now with all the opportunity he have. He’d be a better scorer (scoring only) than Jalen Green or Cade Cunningham, and possibly not that much worse on defense.

[Duke4life831]

We dont need to guess Whitmore's height though. He's 6'5.75" barefoot. That was done at the combine, that is as official as a measurement as we can get.

I also dont think Okoro is a bad comp, but just because he didnt workout doesnt mean all guys with similar comps dont work out. Miles Bridges is a very similar physical comp and skill comp at the same age. Bridges was a 20/7 guy on +3% TS% before he was an idiot off the court.

I dont think he has the same passing skills as Bridges at the same age, but I think he is a quicker and faster athlete and has the better handles than Bridges at the same age. I also think he is the better defender than Bridges at the same age.

Look, I don't dislike Whitmore. I just think he's being overrated for his mocked position.

At the 10-14 range, ok. I'll even give you a bit more and say 8 onwards.

But drafting him at 4? No way.

Let's say your median outcome for him is something between Okoro and Bridges. Would you draft this guy at 4?

My push back to this is why would that be his median outcome? He has a better handle than Okoro coming out of college. Why are we putting the top at Bridges? I think he is a better prospect than Bridges.

What made Jaylen Brown a better prospect than Whitmore?

Size: The same
Athleticism: The same
Handle: Whitmore
3pt shot: Whitmore
FT: Whitmore
FTr: Brown
Shooting at the rim: Whitmore
Stocks: Whitmore

I like Whitmore more than I liked Brown. Brown went 3rd overall and has become an All NBA player.

[Tha King]

Sensa is that high because if he’s healthy, he can be a 20-25ppg type scorer in the league with efficiency. At worst that’s derozan-lavine-beal type value. That archetype is valued a lot more than Jerami Grant type archetype with whitemore-Hendricks-thompson twins.

One question about this. If Sensabaugh isn't going to be a capable defender, he might not even be able to get into games to show his chops at the pro level. TJ Warren and Cam Thomas are elite scorers as well, but it's the other side that doesn't keep them on the floor. You have to list those types as well. And I know TJ gets injured a lot so it's not exactly fair.

non-defending Seth and Joe were rotation players so what really keeps Cam Thomas from the floor is an incapability to function within an offense when he's not the focal point and an absolute indifference to passing to others.

[BostonCouchGM]

We dont need to guess Whitmore's height though. He's 6'5.75" barefoot. That was done at the combine, that is as official as a measurement as we can get.

I also dont think Okoro is a bad comp, but just because he didnt workout doesnt mean all guys with similar comps dont work out. Miles Bridges is a very similar physical comp and skill comp at the same age. Bridges was a 20/7 guy on +3% TS% before he was an idiot off the court.

I dont think he has the same passing skills as Bridges at the same age, but I think he is a quicker and faster athlete and has the better handles than Bridges at the same age. I also think he is the better defender than Bridges at the same age.

Look, I don't dislike Whitmore. I just think he's being overrated for his mocked position.

At the 10-14 range, ok. I'll even give you a bit more and say 8 onwards.

But drafting him at 4? No way.

Let's say your median outcome for him is something between Okoro and Bridges. Would you draft this guy at 4?

My push back to this is why would that be his median outcome? He has a better handle than Okoro coming out of college. Why are we putting the top at Bridges? I think he is a better prospect than Bridges.

What made Jaylen Brown a better prospect than Whitmore?

Size: The same
Athleticism: The same
Handle: Whitmore
3pt shot: Whitmore
FT: Whitmore
FTr: Brown
Shooting at the rim: Whitmore
Stocks: Whitmore

I like Whitmore more than I liked Brown. Brown went 3rd overall and has become an All NBA player.

a) Brown was gifted that all-nba nod
b) Brown, for all his warts, has elite work-ethic and we aren't sure about that with Whitmore
c) Brown has nearly 3-4 inches of wingspan on Whitmore
d) Brown didn't have the results in college but he's always had great shooting touch unlike Whitmore

that said, it's not crazy to have Jaylen as a potential upside for Whitmore but not only do I not see Jaylen but I don't even see Miles Bridges as Whitmore's upside. I think we'll see something similar to Dort tbh.

[BostonCouchGM]

We dont need to guess Whitmore's height though. He's 6'5.75" barefoot. That was done at the combine, that is as official as a measurement as we can get.

I also dont think Okoro is a bad comp, but just because he didnt workout doesnt mean all guys with similar comps dont work out. Miles Bridges is a very similar physical comp and skill comp at the same age. Bridges was a 20/7 guy on +3% TS% before he was an idiot off the court.

I dont think he has the same passing skills as Bridges at the same age, but I think he is a quicker and faster athlete and has the better handles than Bridges at the same age. I also think he is the better defender than Bridges at the same age.

I honestly feel bad for people that believe the "official" numbers. It'll never not be funny to me. Even when they show guys being measured (like with Bilal recently) the guys measuring aren't pushing down on their hair. That alone can account for 1/4" to 2" in height depending on the hairstyle. They are measuring shoe soles from the outside but not whether there are inserted mid-sole lifts inside which can account for another 1/4" to 1/2". These flaws in the system are exacerbated when it's done at "personal" combines. Then you have the influence of agents greasing palms for more favorable results. At the end of the day, the "official" measurements are almost guaranteed to be inflated. There's very little chance Whitmore is 6'5.75" barefoot with a bald head. Even his poor wingspan actually backs up him being shorter.

Haha then having any discussion about height numbers is beyond pointless. Can’t trust individual measurements, can’t trust the eye test because of the angle of the camera and if someone is slouching, and can’t trust official measurements from NBA’s official combine.

no, you can use BOTH, the "official" numbers AND trained eye-test to arrive at your conclusion. I just trust my eyes more than the measurements because I can compare them to other players, lines on the court (that never change) and account for hairstyles. So you CAN have these conversations you just shouldn't laughably only accept "official" measurements especially when you know historically they've been inaccurate. Players and agents literally lied for years about height until the NBA came down on everyone and forced them to use barefoot measurements when it got out of control. Ever wonder why guys are almost always measured in 1/4" intervals? For that to happen guys are being rounded up. For years people thought Kobe was 6'7" but turns out he was 6'4". You sound like the type that would have defended his "official" height that whole time. Whitmore should be noticeably taller than Jaylen Brown is we are to believe these "official" measurements. So let's revisit this once they're on the court together. If Whitmore IS clearly taller I'll eat crow and force myself to do a better job of accepting these "official" results.

[EvanZ]

Kobe was 6’4”? Do you mean barefoot?


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[Duke4life831]

Look, I don't dislike Whitmore. I just think he's being overrated for his mocked position.

At the 10-14 range, ok. I'll even give you a bit more and say 8 onwards.

But drafting him at 4? No way.

Let's say your median outcome for him is something between Okoro and Bridges. Would you draft this guy at 4?

My push back to this is why would that be his median outcome? He has a better handle than Okoro coming out of college. Why are we putting the top at Bridges? I think he is a better prospect than Bridges.

What made Jaylen Brown a better prospect than Whitmore?

Size: The same
Athleticism: The same
Handle: Whitmore
3pt shot: Whitmore
FT: Whitmore
FTr: Brown
Shooting at the rim: Whitmore
Stocks: Whitmore

I like Whitmore more than I liked Brown. Brown went 3rd overall and has become an All NBA player.

a) Brown was gifted that all-nba nod
b) Brown, for all his warts, has elite work-ethic and we aren't sure about that with Whitmore
c) Brown has nearly 3-4 inches of wingspan on Whitmore
d) Brown didn't have the results in college but he's always had great shooting touch unlike Whitmore

that said, it's not crazy to have Jaylen as a potential upside for Whitmore but not only do I not see Jaylen but I don't even see Miles Bridges as Whitmore's upside. I think we'll see something similar to Dort tbh.

1. Gifted that All-NBA or not, he is a very good player and a no doubt max player. So there is a clear successful archetype for Cam.
2. This seems to be pointless to talk about because again, we dont know if Cam has a high work ethic or not. We havent heard any negatives about it.
3. Ya he has 3 inches on the wingspan, but Brown doesnt really use his length at all. 1.4 stocks for his career, not really a deflections guy either. So its not like Jaylen is taking advantage of any extra length he has.
4. What is this based on? Brown was a bad shooter in high school, and has been an inconsistent FT shooter his entire NBA career, while having pretty high and low inconsistent 3pt shooting results throughout his career. He's never really shown great shooting touch.

[Duke4life831]

I honestly feel bad for people that believe the "official" numbers. It'll never not be funny to me. Even when they show guys being measured (like with Bilal recently) the guys measuring aren't pushing down on their hair. That alone can account for 1/4" to 2" in height depending on the hairstyle. They are measuring shoe soles from the outside but not whether there are inserted mid-sole lifts inside which can account for another 1/4" to 1/2". These flaws in the system are exacerbated when it's done at "personal" combines. Then you have the influence of agents greasing palms for more favorable results. At the end of the day, the "official" measurements are almost guaranteed to be inflated. There's very little chance Whitmore is 6'5.75" barefoot with a bald head. Even his poor wingspan actually backs up him being shorter.

Haha then having any discussion about height numbers is beyond pointless. Can’t trust individual measurements, can’t trust the eye test because of the angle of the camera and if someone is slouching, and can’t trust official measurements from NBA’s official combine.

no, you can use BOTH, the "official" numbers AND trained eye-test to arrive at your conclusion. I just trust my eyes more than the measurements because I can compare them to other players, lines on the court (that never change) and account for hairstyles. So you CAN have these conversations you just shouldn't laughably only accept "official" measurements especially when you know historically they've been inaccurate. Players and agents literally lied for years about height until the NBA came down on everyone and forced them to use barefoot measurements when it got out of control. Ever wonder why guys are almost always measured in 1/4" intervals? For that to happen guys are being rounded up. For years people thought Kobe was 6'7" but turns out he was 6'4". You sound like the type that would have defended his "official" height that whole time. Whitmore should be noticeably taller than Jaylen Brown is we are to believe these "official" measurements. So let's revisit this once they're on the court together. If Whitmore IS clearly taller I'll eat crow and force myself to do a better job of accepting these "official" results.

What are you talking about? There is a difference between the numbers teams put up for their players and official combine measurements. Show me the Kobe Bryant official barefoot measurement of 6'7. We dont have any better official measurements, than barefoot measurements at the combine. That is as official as its going to get for these conversations. And those are the numbers Im "defending".

And yes I understand that for the combine they go by 1/4" intervals, thats just to simplify things. Also Cam should be noticeably taller than Brown? He measured .5" taller without shoes. You expect to see that difference from your TV? A little slouching, camera angle, a little extra padding in shoes. Youre not going to be able to see .5" on TV.

[clyde21]

I honestly feel bad for people that believe the "official" numbers. It'll never not be funny to me. Even when they show guys being measured (like with Bilal recently) the guys measuring aren't pushing down on their hair. That alone can account for 1/4" to 2" in height depending on the hairstyle. They are measuring shoe soles from the outside but not whether there are inserted mid-sole lifts inside which can account for another 1/4" to 1/2". These flaws in the system are exacerbated when it's done at "personal" combines. Then you have the influence of agents greasing palms for more favorable results. At the end of the day, the "official" measurements are almost guaranteed to be inflated. There's very little chance Whitmore is 6'5.75" barefoot with a bald head. Even his poor wingspan actually backs up him being shorter.

Haha then having any discussion about height numbers is beyond pointless. Can’t trust individual measurements, can’t trust the eye test because of the angle of the camera and if someone is slouching, and can’t trust official measurements from NBA’s official combine.

no, you can use BOTH, the "official" numbers AND trained eye-test to arrive at your conclusion. I just trust my eyes more than the measurements because I can compare them to other players, lines on the court (that never change) and account for hairstyles. So you CAN have these conversations you just shouldn't laughably only accept "official" measurements especially when you know historically they've been inaccurate. Players and agents literally lied for years about height until the NBA came down on everyone and forced them to use barefoot measurements when it got out of control. Ever wonder why guys are almost always measured in 1/4" intervals? For that to happen guys are being rounded up. For years people thought Kobe was 6'7" but turns out he was 6'4". You sound like the type that would have defended his "official" height that whole time. Whitmore should be noticeably taller than Jaylen Brown is we are to believe these "official" measurements. So let's revisit this once they're on the court together. If Whitmore IS clearly taller I'll eat crow and force myself to do a better job of accepting these "official" results.

[GSWFan1994]

We dont need to guess Whitmore's height though. He's 6'5.75" barefoot. That was done at the combine, that is as official as a measurement as we can get.

I also dont think Okoro is a bad comp, but just because he didnt workout doesnt mean all guys with similar comps dont work out. Miles Bridges is a very similar physical comp and skill comp at the same age. Bridges was a 20/7 guy on +3% TS% before he was an idiot off the court.

I dont think he has the same passing skills as Bridges at the same age, but I think he is a quicker and faster athlete and has the better handles than Bridges at the same age. I also think he is the better defender than Bridges at the same age.

Look, I don't dislike Whitmore. I just think he's being overrated for his mocked position.

At the 10-14 range, ok. I'll even give you a bit more and say 8 onwards.

But drafting him at 4? No way.

Let's say your median outcome for him is something between Okoro and Bridges. Would you draft this guy at 4?

My push back to this is why would that be his median outcome? He has a better handle than Okoro coming out of college. Why are we putting the top at Bridges? I think he is a better prospect than Bridges.

What made Jaylen Brown a better prospect than Whitmore?

Size: The same
Athleticism: The same
Handle: Whitmore
3pt shot: Whitmore
FT: Whitmore
FTr: Brown
Shooting at the rim: Whitmore
Stocks: Whitmore

I like Whitmore more than I liked Brown. Brown went 3rd overall and has become an All NBA player.

Well, it was you who established Bridges as a debate point in the previous post. I just went along with it in the logic to offer you a counterpoint.

But that's ok, if you want to put Jaylen Brown in the discussion. I think I'd rate Brown higher than Whitmore, both as prospects coming out of college.

I believe the user "BostonCouchGM" basically explained what I'd argue, too.

Now back to Bridges for a moment: let's say Whitmore tops out at Bridges' current level of production (20/7/3, borderline top 40/50 player on any given season), and let's say 2 or 3 All-Star nods during his career.

Would you say that was a bad outcome? I mean, lots of top 5 picks never sniff that kind of production and accolades.

[Duke4life831]

Look, I don't dislike Whitmore. I just think he's being overrated for his mocked position.

At the 10-14 range, ok. I'll even give you a bit more and say 8 onwards.

But drafting him at 4? No way.

Let's say your median outcome for him is something between Okoro and Bridges. Would you draft this guy at 4?

My push back to this is why would that be his median outcome? He has a better handle than Okoro coming out of college. Why are we putting the top at Bridges? I think he is a better prospect than Bridges.

What made Jaylen Brown a better prospect than Whitmore?

Size: The same
Athleticism: The same
Handle: Whitmore
3pt shot: Whitmore
FT: Whitmore
FTr: Brown
Shooting at the rim: Whitmore
Stocks: Whitmore

I like Whitmore more than I liked Brown. Brown went 3rd overall and has become an All NBA player.

Well, it was you who established Bridges as a debate point in the previous post. I just went along with it in the logic to offer you a counterpoint.

But that's ok, if you want to put Jaylen Brown in the discussion. I think I'd rate Brown higher than Whitmore, both as prospects coming out of college.

I believe the user "BostonCouchGM" basically explained what I'd argue, too.

Now back to Bridges for a moment: let's say Whitmore tops out at Bridges' current level of production (20/7/3, borderline top 40/50 player on any given season), and let's say 2 or 3 All-Star nods during his career.

Would you say that was a bad outcome? I mean, lots of top 5 picks never sniff that kind of production and accolades.

Before going down this hypothetical, I just want to say I dont think that was the best Bridges was going to be. Those numbers were still on his rookie deal.

But with that said, if I can get a multiple all star outside of a top 3 pick, Id be happy with that outcome. Just looking at say 4th-8th (lets say Whitmore's median predicted draft slot is somewhere in this area) in say the last 10 or so drafts. How many multi all stars have there been?.

So we have:
Trae Young (2x all star)
Julius Randle (2x all star)
Dame (7x all star)
Cousins (4x all star)
Steph (9x)

I ended up going back 14 drafts. So ya I would take him in a heartbeat in that 4th-8th section if I know I was getting multiple all stars.

[TyCobb]

People should add BBIQ and work ethic to their evaluations and prospect comparisons. It'll really help you filter players alot quicker.

[clyde21]

People should add BBIQ and work ethic to their evaluations and prospect comparisons. It'll really help you filter players alot quicker.

work ethic is impossible for us to measure tho, that is the great variable

[EvanZ]

People should add BBIQ and work ethic to their evaluations and prospect comparisons. It'll really help you filter players alot quicker.

BBIQ yes...work ethic is pretty ambiguous unless you're a team and can conduct interviews and things like that.

[jezzerinho]

Plus there are two types of work ethic, that dont hold the same value for FOs

One is the self-improvement ethic, which is valuable, but not necessarily applied in the areas a team might want. Plenty of players work on aspects that make them better players in THEIR eyes, with the goal of better stats/more media attention/bigger salary/more endorsements.

Its even more valuable to have a player who will work on the stuff that makes the team machine run smoother.

[The Moose]

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[76ciology]

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notables for me:
Coulibaly 44%
Sensa 47%
Podz 46.4%