2024 NBA Draft Thread

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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#61 » by BostonCouchGM » Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:35 am

jman3134 wrote:No one liked the high level McDonald's game tonight? DJ Wagner needs more respect.


loved it. Great game. I don't understand the hate Wagner gets. He's a two-way stud. On offense he has some Kyrie to his game with elite first step and ability to get to his spots. He's shown he can shoot and score on all three levels. And he was the best guard defender on the floor with steals, blocks, energy and effort. But most of all, he's a legit 6'3" and I previously thought he was a generous 6'2". He's seemingly grown a bit. His passing has always been underrated so I'm not at all surprised by his ability to run an offense. He's an elite PG prospect. I like him more than Scoot tbh
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#62 » by SeattleJazzFan » Wed Mar 29, 2023 1:03 pm

jman3134 wrote:No one liked the high level McDonald's game tonight? DJ Wagner needs more respect.


i've been watching these games for 35 years - this might be the best i've ever seen. not so much the best talent (though it does appear to be very good class), but he competitive nature of the game was incredible.

my favorite nba prospects group are Collier, Stewart, Holland, Edwards, Wagner and Walter.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#63 » by BostonCouchGM » Wed Mar 29, 2023 9:49 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:
The-Power wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
the people that are saying "how weak the class is" get it wrong every year then that gets regurgitated on here and despite you all being wrong all the time you keep doing it. You'd think you'd eventually learn your lesson. 2023 is weak. 2024 is loaded aka the opposite of the prevailing narrative.

Here's what you called the previous draft classes:

2017 – all-time great
2018 – all-time great
2019 – good
2020 – good
2021 – weaker than 2020 but still deep
2022 – great
2023 – weak (now) / pretty decent (late January)
2024 – loaded

At some point, calling most draft classes varying degrees of good or great doesn't make a lot of sense. Because for the draft, ‘good’ or ‘great’ is inherently comparative. If everything is good then nothing is. You complain that every year people are complaining about how weak the class is (which definitely isn't true but let's put that aside), yet here you are on the other side of it describing virtually all draft classes in very positive terms. That's not very meaningful either.

I bet that virtually everyone who describes a draft class as ‘good’, ‘weak’, ‘great’ ‘ deep’, ‘shallow’ or what have you understands that a) it can change over the course of the season with prospects breaking or flaming out; b) it can change with the benefit of hindsight depending on player development; and c) every weak class still has good players and some positive attributes, just as every strong draft has some negative attributes.

I'm not sure why every single year you complain about other people assessing the strength of draft classes based on their opinions. You can disagree with these assessments but it feels futile to get all up in arms year after year about something that is inherently subjective and highly unreliable either way (good or bad).


Was this supposed to be some kind of "gotcha". I'm spot on with every single one of them and I was alone believing that the 2016 class was good btw as well. How dumbed down must I make these descriptors? I'm saying, for the past several years since I've been here, the more prolific posters and the "experts" and "scouts" have said one thing and for the most part, I've been on the opposing end and I've been right!

draft classes with approximately 5 all-stars are rare. To also have numerous starters and borderline all-stars make those classes all-time greats. So I'm right about 2017 and 2018.

2019 has just three all-stars and a few good players. It's not bad. It's good. Again, I was right.

2020 has just three all-stars and a few good players. It's not bad. It's good. Again, I was right.

2021 might not get a single all-star but certainly not more than three but it's deep with starters and role players. So weaker than 2020. Right again.

2022 is great. Is this not already obvious despite it only being a year and not having Chet healthy?

2023 is decent to weak. It will have standouts (Wembanyama, Scoot and the twins) but almost every single one and done disappointed or have major flaws. Did people not watch this college season?


and not for nothing, but 2023 isn't set in stone since we're still early in the process. We have yet to get measurements, interviews, combine, etc. I'm just going on how the one and done's performed and it was overall a mess with not many really meeting expectations I had for them initially. There's a few guys I really like but am not completely sold on and want to see how they respond to scrimmages/combine outside of their stifling college systems. I have a sneaking suspicion that a few will rise to the occasion which of course, being added to the top 4 elite guys, would make this a good if not great draft.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#64 » by clyde21 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:07 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
the people that are saying "how weak the class is" get it wrong every year then that gets regurgitated on here and despite you all being wrong all the time you keep doing it. You'd think you'd eventually learn your lesson. 2023 is weak. 2024 is loaded aka the opposite of the prevailing narrative.


Cool tell us about the studs on this class then. I would love to have this class be stacked, Duke has 5 guys in the top 20. I would love to have 5 guys in the top 20 of a stacked class joining a team with a returning Proctor, Mitchell and possibly Flip.


Holland
Collier
Foster
Mara
Risacher
Bradshaw
Wagner
Buzelis
Cunningham
Coulibaly
Sarr
Edwards

And I'm sure there will be several more to join this group by this time next season. This is definitely one of the strongest international classes I've seen. Several of these guys will take some time to develop but there's some real high upside to them.


you're just naming names off the recruiting list lol - what makes these guys so good that it's a "loaded class"?

also, Coulibaly is likely in this class (where he maybe won't even be a top 25 pick?) and Naas hasn't even reclassed yet.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#65 » by clyde21 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 10:42 pm

Buz is my top prospect currently for 24 and as much as I like him right now he'd go #3 in this class after Wemby/Scoot.

two of the top 5 players are 6'3 guards who are not necessarily great playmakers or super athletes (Wagner/Collier), Bradshaw's coming in ranked highly just like Dereck Lively was but guarantee that's gonna be laughable 10 games into next season, Edwards is meh, Mgbako is like Precious Achiuwa, Dillingham is actually an undersized guard, Mikey Williams has been one of most overrated HS players I've ever seen, also a short non-playmaker, two guys were 'late bloomer types' in Booker and Cody Williams and they can go either way, just as likely to bust in college as they are to blow up, Mookie Cook and Naas Cunningham (we'll see if he reclasses) looked great at one point but have been trending down actually the last year or so.

and relying on international players to shape a top 5 is always tricky. go back to pre-season 2022 class...we all thought Yannick Nzosa and Nikola Jovic would be top 5 picks and they both sucked esp Nzosa...now he's nowhere to be found and Jovic was an end of R1 guy.

yea, just not sure what is so exciting about this class, and it's not like I care either way, would love for it to be great, it's just not at this point. obviously a lot can change with returning class and internationals could make a difference if Mara/Risacher continue development like we expect but loaded at this point is not what I would call this class.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#66 » by Duke4life831 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:22 pm

BostonCouchGM wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
the people that are saying "how weak the class is" get it wrong every year then that gets regurgitated on here and despite you all being wrong all the time you keep doing it. You'd think you'd eventually learn your lesson. 2023 is weak. 2024 is loaded aka the opposite of the prevailing narrative.


Cool tell us about the studs on this class then. I would love to have this class be stacked, Duke has 5 guys in the top 20. I would love to have 5 guys in the top 20 of a stacked class joining a team with a returning Proctor, Mitchell and possibly Flip.


Holland
Collier
Foster
Mara
Risacher
Bradshaw
Wagner
Buzelis
Cunningham
Coulibaly
Sarr
Edwards

And I'm sure there will be several more to join this group by this time next season. This is definitely one of the strongest international classes I've seen. Several of these guys will take some time to develop but there's some real high upside to them.


I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#67 » by jman3134 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:45 pm

SeattleJazzFan wrote:
jman3134 wrote:No one liked the high level McDonald's game tonight? DJ Wagner needs more respect.


i've been watching these games for 35 years - this might be the best i've ever seen. not so much the best talent (though it does appear to be very good class), but he competitive nature of the game was incredible.

my favorite nba prospects group are Collier, Stewart, Holland, Edwards, Wagner and Walter.


Agree 100%. You didn't like Bradshaw, Holloway, Biliew, or Castle? I think those guys helped their stock the most yesterday. Wagner should already be considered elite. I think NBA scouts already know this though.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#68 » by jman3134 » Wed Mar 29, 2023 11:53 pm

Duke4life831 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Cool tell us about the studs on this class then. I would love to have this class be stacked, Duke has 5 guys in the top 20. I would love to have 5 guys in the top 20 of a stacked class joining a team with a returning Proctor, Mitchell and possibly Flip.


Holland
Collier
Foster
Mara
Risacher
Bradshaw
Wagner
Buzelis
Cunningham
Coulibaly
Sarr
Edwards

And I'm sure there will be several more to join this group by this time next season. This is definitely one of the strongest international classes I've seen. Several of these guys will take some time to develop but there's some real high upside to them.


I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.


Flagg and Boozer are great, but just because those are obvious, game changing talents does not mean that the other classes are anything to sneeze at. Wagner is a legit 6'3 lead guard. Some of these players are underdeveloped, sure, but they very much are bringing a different mental approach to the game. It was fully on display last night. Projecting prospects is also about incorporating the mental game into evaluations as much as it is archetypes.

What I didn't like overall was that many of these guys seemed completely out of control making decisions in the backcourt, throwing it ahead. They also kept running ahead even when no rebound was secured. I would say that the rebounding was some of the worst I've ever seen. But, there was a lot to like from a defensive standpoint. Rotations were crisp for an event where most of the guys have not played together, with the exception of Wagner and the bigs (though he was only on the floor with Mgbako for the most part). Offensively, many of these guys have high upside once they physically develop. Cody Williams, Castle, Holloway all jumped out.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#69 » by Duke4life831 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 12:10 am

jman3134 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
Holland
Collier
Foster
Mara
Risacher
Bradshaw
Wagner
Buzelis
Cunningham
Coulibaly
Sarr
Edwards

And I'm sure there will be several more to join this group by this time next season. This is definitely one of the strongest international classes I've seen. Several of these guys will take some time to develop but there's some real high upside to them.


I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.


Flagg and Boozer are great, but just because those are obvious, game changing talents does not mean that the other classes are anything to sneeze at. Wagner is a legit 6'3 lead guard. Some of these players are underdeveloped, sure, but they very much are bringing a different mental approach to the game. It was fully on display last night. Projecting prospects is also about incorporating the mental game into evaluations as much as it is archetypes.

What I didn't like overall was that many of these guys seemed completely out of control making decisions in the backcourt, throwing it ahead. They also kept running ahead even when no rebound was secured. I would say that the rebounding was some of the worst I've ever seen. But, there was a lot to like from a defensive standpoint. Rotations were crisp for an event where most of the guys have not played together, with the exception of Wagner and the bigs (though he was only on the floor with Mgbako for the most part). Offensively, many of these guys have high upside once they physically develop. Cody Williams, Castle, Holloway all jumped out.


I dont put much stock into the actual McDonald's game. Even though guys played harder compared to most all star games (even past McDonald's games), its still an all star game. So ya guys will leak out more than they do in most games and so on. I think similar to like the Summer League, you can take small things like the size of a player vs others, how does their functional athleticism compare to others and so on.

And obviously there are guys with potential, its just the fact that compared to guys normally at this stage, this class (and next year's) leave a lot to be desired. Again the #1 ranking for this class has basically just been musical chairs. And its not because guys are stepping up and taking over the spot, its because no one has really separated themselves.

Like what separates Wagner from Keyonte George? George was the better shooter in high school, Id give the edge to George in the athleticism department as well (theyre pretty similar here though). And most places dont even have George top 10 in their mocks.

Who are the guys right now would you get pumped to land a top 5 pick to get. I think Matas and Collier are the two best guys in the class, but neither guy would sniff a top 3 in most drafts. Just as of right now, again comparing these guys to past classes as they were leaving high school, this class is just behind.

Like I said before, as a die hard Duke fan I would love to be wrong and for this class to be stacked. Because if that is the case and this is a stacked class, well Duke has 5 guys in the top 20, sign me up for that.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#70 » by Upperclass » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:05 am

Wagner isnt a PG imo.. hes more of a Tyrese Maxey/Terry Rozier type
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#71 » by clyde21 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 3:40 am

jman3134 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
BostonCouchGM wrote:
Holland
Collier
Foster
Mara
Risacher
Bradshaw
Wagner
Buzelis
Cunningham
Coulibaly
Sarr
Edwards

And I'm sure there will be several more to join this group by this time next season. This is definitely one of the strongest international classes I've seen. Several of these guys will take some time to develop but there's some real high upside to them.


I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.


Flagg and Boozer are great, but just because those are obvious, game changing talents does not mean that the other classes are anything to sneeze at. Wagner is a legit 6'3 lead guard. Some of these players are underdeveloped, sure, but they very much are bringing a different mental approach to the game. It was fully on display last night. Projecting prospects is also about incorporating the mental game into evaluations as much as it is archetypes.

What I didn't like overall was that many of these guys seemed completely out of control making decisions in the backcourt, throwing it ahead. They also kept running ahead even when no rebound was secured. I would say that the rebounding was some of the worst I've ever seen. But, there was a lot to like from a defensive standpoint. Rotations were crisp for an event where most of the guys have not played together, with the exception of Wagner and the bigs (though he was only on the floor with Mgbako for the most part). Offensively, many of these guys have high upside once they physically develop. Cody Williams, Castle, Holloway all jumped out.


Wagner's not a lead guard, more of a combo guy, not a natural 1 instead a secondary playmaker type, just another one in a long line of 6-3 to 6-5 combo guards we've been seeing lately masquarading as lead guards, and I like Wagner for what he is but he's not a life changer and his archetype is dime a dozen

same with Collier really, so that's two of the top 5 recruits (per 247) that are this meh archetype, another is Bradshaw who's most likely another Ware/Lively type, another is Edwards who's fine but tbh would he even be a top 8 pick in this class? and the 5th is Buz who's my favorite but he'd be #3 in this class at best.

again there is a reason why this is widely considered to be a weak class, people are not making it up out of nowhere. granted its still early and you never know whats gonna happen in the next 10 months but that's the current outlook.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#72 » by jman3134 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:16 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
jman3134 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.


Flagg and Boozer are great, but just because those are obvious, game changing talents does not mean that the other classes are anything to sneeze at. Wagner is a legit 6'3 lead guard. Some of these players are underdeveloped, sure, but they very much are bringing a different mental approach to the game. It was fully on display last night. Projecting prospects is also about incorporating the mental game into evaluations as much as it is archetypes.

What I didn't like overall was that many of these guys seemed completely out of control making decisions in the backcourt, throwing it ahead. They also kept running ahead even when no rebound was secured. I would say that the rebounding was some of the worst I've ever seen. But, there was a lot to like from a defensive standpoint. Rotations were crisp for an event where most of the guys have not played together, with the exception of Wagner and the bigs (though he was only on the floor with Mgbako for the most part). Offensively, many of these guys have high upside once they physically develop. Cody Williams, Castle, Holloway all jumped out.


I dont put much stock into the actual McDonald's game. Even though guys played harder compared to most all star games (even past McDonald's games), its still an all star game. So ya guys will leak out more than they do in most games and so on. I think similar to like the Summer League, you can take small things like the size of a player vs others, how does their functional athleticism compare to others and so on.

And obviously there are guys with potential, its just the fact that compared to guys normally at this stage, this class (and next year's) leave a lot to be desired. Again the #1 ranking for this class has basically just been musical chairs. And its not because guys are stepping up and taking over the spot, its because no one has really separated themselves.

Like what separates Wagner from Keyonte George? George was the better shooter in high school, Id give the edge to George in the athleticism department as well (theyre pretty similar here though). And most places dont even have George top 10 in their mocks.

Who are the guys right now would you get pumped to land a top 5 pick to get. I think Matas and Collier are the two best guys in the class, but neither guy would sniff a top 3 in most drafts. Just as of right now, again comparing these guys to past classes as they were leaving high school, this class is just behind.

Like I said before, as a die hard Duke fan I would love to be wrong and for this class to be stacked. Because if that is the case and this is a stacked class, well Duke has 5 guys in the top 20, sign me up for that.


No one is suggesting that you should put "stock" in the McDonald's game. It is one game. You also have a chance to evaluate at the McDonald's practices. It is important to see the top talents face off against one another. I value the Nike Hoops Summit highest on my list, but again, it goes without saying that body of work is the most important factor.

It was an "allstar game" that was not played like an allstar game. That is the point. It says something about the approach and competitiveness of the members of this class.

Why does not having a clear number 1 make this a bad class? Just because there isn't a Wemby does not mean that you don't have 15 solid players at the top of the draft, who should be able to carve out roles for many years.

I don't understand the approach at evaluating a class. This class features several guys who are physically underdeveloped, but tremendously talented. In previous years, maybe some of the guys have been more physically ready to make the jump.

On the Keyonte George/Wagner comparison, I really like Keyonte George more than the average mock, so this does nothing to prove your point. All that tells me is that mock drafters are a bit clueless at this point in the game. I am leaning towards Wagner being the better prospect, but this presumes a leap in his reads from high school to freshman year of college. Keyonte has tremendous shot creation skills and is way better shooting on the move imo. Both are capable with their in between games, something that spells success at the next level. Keyonte makes really good reads, but sometimes is a bit out of control. That will come in time. Likewise, Wagner has a tendency to force the action.

Wagner has more potential as a facilitator because he has a quicker first step and a more dynamic handle. He does a better job getting to the basket, and has a lot more room to improve his finishing as he develops physically. Additionally, Wagner has been improving by leaps and bounds finding open teammates, but what makes him great is his ability to draw help and set his teammates up. He makes everything look so easy. So while Keyonte George may have some of the best shot creation tools in this class, Wagner may be even more crafty and dynamic attacking the rim/setting up his teammates in the long run.

I am excited about Wagner, Cody, Matas, Collier, Castle, Biliew, Risacher, Edwards, Sarr, Bradshaw, and others.

On Duke, I hope Mackenzie proves me wrong, as I think he has been banged up all year, but he looks like one of the more overrated players in this class. Hope he does more off ball at the college level. In the time's I have watched him this year (again he is banged up on a new roster), he looks more like a mixtape sensation than a legit lotto threat.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#73 » by The-Power » Thu Mar 30, 2023 5:16 am

For the first time in years, I had the pleasure of watching the All-American game (and scrimmage) without knowing anything about the class. No rankings, no names, no scouting reports, and no HS tape.

So I enjoyed seeing the players for the first time without any kind of expectations or preconceived ideas of what they should look like. Here are my impressions (again: strictly from these two games).

First of all, I thought the overall skill-level in that game was higher than in previous years. I'm not sure how much of that was because it lacked strong defensive bigs but I still thought it was noticeable. The trade-off was that the overall level of athleticism was rather underwhelming. The size was fine. Not so much in terms of bigs but the wing players had solid size. But now onto the players:

EAST

0 Kwame Evans – I remember seeing him play well as a Sophomore or Junior in HS games but he didn't stand out at all, and didn't look like much of a prospect. He clearly has some solid skills for his size but that was about it. I hope there is more to him that he could show but neither the motor nor the athleticism looked great and that's a problem.

2 Aaron Bradshaw – Showed some promise as a face-up big and offensive rebounder, but not enough as a rim protector, switch defender or in terms of feel for the game for me to really get excited about him. And he'll have to fill out more.

3 Justin Edwards – I learned during the broadcast that he was the #1 and was quite surprised. I see some appeal due to his size and solid skills, but he certainly did not look like a top-tier prospect to me. He was quite limited athletically (speed, burst, leaping ability) and not skilled enough to make it matter less. But perhaps he just didn't get to show everything he can do.

7 Stephon Castle – Perhaps the player I was impressed by the most. He reminded me of Cade Cunningham in a lot of ways. Great size for a Guard, looked comfortable shooting, did a good job of probing defenses, and made a couple really good reads and passes. Solid defensive effort, too. Not a noteworthy athlete and at times a bit loose with the ball for a lead Guard but there is A LOT to like about him.

8 Elmarko Jackson – His quickness was notable on occasion but other than that I didn't see a whole lot to be excited about. He'll either prove to be a great shooter or a very good playmaker for me to become intrigued, and I didn't really see that in the game.

10 Cody Williams – Another player I was impressed by. He clearly needs to fill out a lot more but he has length, some on-ball creation ability and a solid all-around skill (dribble, pass, shoot) foundation to build on for someone his size. I can see him becoming a really good player with that foundation.

11 Aden Holloway – He looked like he could be a dynamic scoring Guard and Auburn as his choice makes sense (Wendell Green was given a lot of opportunities). But I'll have to see more to buy him as a good NBA prospect. At that size, you need to show a lot – hopefully he can do that.

12 Sean Stewart – I really liked him. He didn't look like he was in ideal shape and hopefully he can squeeze out a bit more athleticism when getting into better shape because that's a reason he struggled a bit on offense. But he moved well on defense, showed good rim protection instincts, very smart and capable rebounder. He'll have to show an all-around skill set on offense to rise up the boards but that comfortable pull-up 2 – and the overall level of on-court intelligence – showed that there is something there to work with.

13 Matas Buzelis – He did not really pop for me. He is tall and can dribble and shoot a bit, so that's probably the intrigue. But I'm not sure how functional it is (especially the ball handling) and in terms of athleticism and defensive impact, I didn't come away impressed. So I'm wait-and-see with him but start out as a skeptic as far as him being a high-level prospect.

21 DJ Wagner – He looked good but his size also means that he'll have to excel in a lot of areas to be a top prospect. He reminded me a bit of Cole Anthony (who I was very high on) but not quite the shooter but bigger. I'll closely follow his efficiency at the next level, and how good his playmaking is (two areas in which Cole struggled at UNC that made me a bit more skeptical of him).

24 Mackenzie Mgbako – I often noticed him without popping off the screen, if that makes sense. He seemed to be involved in a lot of things on the court (especially in the scrimmage) without showing anything special. He could be a solid all-around college player but I have yet to see anything that sets him apart as a prospect.

34 Xavier Booker – I really didn't notice anything particularly noteworthy about him.

WEST

0 Omaha Biliew – Loved some of his defensive flashes, especially during the scrimmage. Good motor, too. But he was very limited offensively in terms of dribbling or shooting the ball, and it's not like he was a menace around the rim either. I hope he can show enough on offense because I want to like him with his motor, size and length on defense. He shot mechanics looked actually pretty fine and I didn't see a terrible feel for the game, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

1 Ron Holland II – He was certainly easy to notice. Good size, solid athlete, plus motor. He flashed some passing ability, which was good, and could create a bit for himself. So I like the foundation. But he is a bit stiff athletically and he does not have much wiggle off the dribble, and his jumper certainly leaves room for improvement, too. At least one of the two (reliable shooting or self-creation) will have to be there for him to push very high. But he certainly has the looks of an NBA player.

2 Andrej Stojakovic – No particular thoughts on him, he didn't make me notice him much.

3 Mookie Cook – I liked him. I think he had a nice combination of wing size and defense to build on. He also had some nice passes over the two games and his shooting stroke looked solid. He's just seems quite limited off the dribble and that will limit his ultimate upside a bit. But I saw someone who has at least all the tools to become a good glue guy and role player.

4 Isaiah Collier – Not sure what to make of him yet. He clearly has the potential to be an offensive engine with his good pace, stop-and-go ability and good passing skills. But he was also very bad defensively, a bit out of control at times, and quick but not very explosive. A lot will depend on his shot being very good and that looked like it could go either way – he flashed some potential, but also some concerns (e.g. FT shooting).

6 Bronny James – He looked like one of the best 3pt shooters in the game and moves well off the ball. So there's clear role-player upside with him. But in terms of creation off the dribble he didn't show anything really, and while he plays solid defense his size limits his upside on that end.

10 Brandon Garrison – I thought he looked good overall without being an exciting prospect. I really liked the passing flashes (especially during the scrimmage) but he doesn't have particularly great size for a 5 and he was a bit too stiff and mechanical for me to buy him as a 4. Not idea if he could be a shooter, he didn't show it. So for now, I have him as someone who should be a solid college player but I'll need to see more to buy him as a noteworthy NBA prospect.

11 Jeremy Fears Jr. – No notes on him, he didn't pop.

14 Ja'Kobe Walter – I noticed a comfortable pull-up game and he could create a bit for himself (although he needed too many dribbles to create separation in those instances), but not much else. He'll probably go as far as his jumper carries him was my thought.

15 Reed Sheppard – Again, no notes.

21 Baye Fall – Dito.

24 Jared McCain – He looked like he could be a great college PG with his shooting and self-creation ability. I'd like to see more playmaking from him but the All-American game is not always a great context for that, so I'm wait-and-see. That being said, it's too early for me to tell what kind of NBA prospect he'll be.

Any thoughts?
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#74 » by BostonCouchGM » Thu Mar 30, 2023 7:42 am

The-Power wrote:For the first time in years, I had the pleasure of watching the All-American game (and scrimmage) without knowing anything about the class. No rankings, no names, no scouting reports, and no HS tape.

So I enjoyed seeing the players for the first time without any kind of expectations or preconceived ideas of what they should look like. Here are my impressions (again: strictly from these two games).

First of all, I thought the overall skill-level in that game was higher than in previous years. I'm not sure how much of that was because it lacked strong defensive bigs but I still thought it was noticeable. The trade-off was that the overall level of athleticism was rather underwhelming. The size was fine. Not so much in terms of bigs but the wing players had solid size. But now onto the players:

EAST

0 Kwame Evans – I remember seeing him play well as a Sophomore or Junior in HS games but he didn't stand out at all, and didn't look like much of a prospect. He clearly has some solid skills for his size but that was about it. I hope there is more to him that he could show but neither the motor nor the athleticism looked great and that's a problem.

2 Aaron Bradshaw – Showed some promise as a face-up big and offensive rebounder, but not enough as a rim protector, switch defender or in terms of feel for the game for me to really get excited about him. And he'll have to fill out more.

3 Justin Edwards – I learned during the broadcast that he was the #1 and was quite surprised. I see some appeal due to his size and solid skills, but he certainly did not look like a top-tier prospect to me. He was quite limited athletically (speed, burst, leaping ability) and not skilled enough to make it matter less. But perhaps he just didn't get to show everything he can do.

7 Stephon Castle – Perhaps the player I was impressed by the most. He reminded me of Cade Cunningham in a lot of ways. Great size for a Guard, looked comfortable shooting, did a good job of probing defenses, and made a couple really good reads and passes. Solid defensive effort, too. Not a noteworthy athlete and at times a bit loose with the ball for a lead Guard but there is A LOT to like about him.

8 Elmarko Jackson – His quickness was notable on occasion but other than that I didn't see a whole lot to be excited about. He'll either prove to be a great shooter or a very good playmaker for me to become intrigued, and I didn't really see that in the game.

10 Cody Williams – Another player I was impressed by. He clearly needs to fill out a lot more but he has length, some on-ball creation ability and a solid all-around skill (dribble, pass, shoot) foundation to build on for someone his size. I can see him becoming a really good player with that foundation.

11 Aden Holloway – He looked like he could be a dynamic scoring Guard and Auburn as his choice makes sense (Wendell Green was given a lot of opportunities). But I'll have to see more to buy him as a good NBA prospect. At that size, you need to show a lot – hopefully he can do that.

12 Sean Stewart – I really liked him. He didn't look like he was in ideal shape and hopefully he can squeeze out a bit more athleticism when getting into better shape because that's a reason he struggled a bit on offense. But he moved well on defense, showed good rim protection instincts, very smart and capable rebounder. He'll have to show an all-around skill set on offense to rise up the boards but that comfortable pull-up 2 – and the overall level of on-court intelligence – showed that there is something there to work with.

13 Matas Buzelis – He did not really pop for me. He is tall and can dribble and shoot a bit, so that's probably the intrigue. But I'm not sure how functional it is (especially the ball handling) and in terms of athleticism and defensive impact, I didn't come away impressed. So I'm wait-and-see with him but start out as a skeptic as far as him being a high-level prospect.

21 DJ Wagner – He looked good but his size also means that he'll have to excel in a lot of areas to be a top prospect. He reminded me a bit of Cole Anthony (who I was very high on) but not quite the shooter but bigger. I'll closely follow his efficiency at the next level, and how good his playmaking is (two areas in which Cole struggled at UNC that made me a bit more skeptical of him).

24 Mackenzie Mgbako – I often noticed him without popping off the screen, if that makes sense. He seemed to be involved in a lot of things on the court (especially in the scrimmage) without showing anything special. He could be a solid all-around college player but I have yet to see anything that sets him apart as a prospect.

34 Xavier Booker – I really didn't notice anything particularly noteworthy about him.

WEST

0 Omaha Biliew – Loved some of his defensive flashes, especially during the scrimmage. Good motor, too. But he was very limited offensively in terms of dribbling or shooting the ball, and it's not like he was a menace around the rim either. I hope he can show enough on offense because I want to like him with his motor, size and length on defense. He shot mechanics looked actually pretty fine and I didn't see a terrible feel for the game, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

1 Ron Holland II – He was certainly easy to notice. Good size, solid athlete, plus motor. He flashed some passing ability, which was good, and could create a bit for himself. So I like the foundation. But he is a bit stiff athletically and he does not have much wiggle off the dribble, and his jumper certainly leaves room for improvement, too. At least one of the two (reliable shooting or self-creation) will have to be there for him to push very high. But he certainly has the looks of an NBA player.

2 Andrej Stojakovic – No particular thoughts on him, he didn't make me notice him much.

3 Mookie Cook – I liked him. I think he had a nice combination of wing size and defense to build on. He also had some nice passes over the two games and his shooting stroke looked solid. He's just seems quite limited off the dribble and that will limit his ultimate upside a bit. But I saw someone who has at least all the tools to become a good glue guy and role player.

4 Isaiah Collier – Not sure what to make of him yet. He clearly has the potential to be an offensive engine with his good pace, stop-and-go ability and good passing skills. But he was also very bad defensively, a bit out of control at times, and quick but not very explosive. A lot will depend on his shot being very good and that looked like it could go either way – he flashed some potential, but also some concerns (e.g. FT shooting).

6 Bronny James – He looked like one of the best 3pt shooters in the game and moves well off the ball. So there's clear role-player upside with him. But in terms of creation off the dribble he didn't show anything really, and while he plays solid defense his size limits his upside on that end.

10 Brandon Garrison – I thought he looked good overall without being an exciting prospect. I really liked the passing flashes (especially during the scrimmage) but he doesn't have particularly great size for a 5 and he was a bit too stiff and mechanical for me to buy him as a 4. Not idea if he could be a shooter, he didn't show it. So for now, I have him as someone who should be a solid college player but I'll need to see more to buy him as a noteworthy NBA prospect.

11 Jeremy Fears Jr. – No notes on him, he didn't pop.

14 Ja'Kobe Walter – I noticed a comfortable pull-up game and he could create a bit for himself (although he needed too many dribbles to create separation in those instances), but not much else. He'll probably go as far as his jumper carries him was my thought.

15 Reed Sheppard – Again, no notes.

21 Baye Fall – Dito.

24 Jared McCain – He looked like he could be a great college PG with his shooting and self-creation ability. I'd like to see more playmaking from him but the All-American game is not always a great context for that, so I'm wait-and-see. That being said, it's too early for me to tell what kind of NBA prospect he'll be.

Any thoughts?


great breakdown.

I thought I saw Buzelis get nicked at the end of the prior day's scrimmage in which he flashed plenty, which maybe is why he didn't play much or look very good despite being mocked to go #1 on some sites. His appeal is that he's skilled at his size and fluid with a frame that can pack on muscle. His game reminds me of Markkanen. It'll probably take a few years to start getting a return on that investment but if he hits he could be special. He's not going to look particularly good in all-star games though. When being guarded by 4s and 5s his obvious skill/athletic advantage will come into play more.

Wagner's size actually surprised me. He's a legit 6'3" and he is 100% a PG, not a combo guard disguising as a PG. He might have been that in the past but he has worked on his game big time. He's now an above average defender for his position, a very good play maker and he can get his shot off at will. I think he has to be the early front-runner for the #1 pick in the draft. He's is going to absolutely dominate in college.

Bradshaw really impressed me. He's going to be a problem in college with his motor and size. I haven't figured out what his role might be in the NBA. We'll just have to wait and see how he develops. He reminds me of Myles Turner.

Jared McCain is a straight shooting guard but he's only 6'2" and lack athleticism to make up for his lack of size. Lovely stroke though. If he was 6'5" he'd be a lottery pick.

Edwards is just so skilled and has a high motor. I'm not sure he's his listed 6'7" though. He looked closer 6'5" which imho takes him out of the running for #1 imo.

Holland is who people thought and still think Whitehead is except he's actually 6'7" maybe even 6'8". He has #1 talent. I love his game.

Collier is an elite PG prospect in line with the likes of Garland. Great handle, passer and BBIQ. I think he is adequate on defense but will probably never be elite. He was clearly pressing in the game as evidenced by all of his missed FTs and some sloppy play.

Williams is intriguing. He's so much more advanced than his brother Jalen who has proven to be a legit NBA player. Still raw though. He has better size and frame so he could look much different in 2-3 years. It wouldn't surprise me if scouts loved him.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#75 » by clyde21 » Thu Mar 30, 2023 4:47 pm

can't wait to see all these elite players in college next season should be fun
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#76 » by SeattleJazzFan » Fri Mar 31, 2023 3:06 pm

jman3134 wrote:
SeattleJazzFan wrote:
jman3134 wrote:No one liked the high level McDonald's game tonight? DJ Wagner needs more respect.


i've been watching these games for 35 years - this might be the best i've ever seen. not so much the best talent (though it does appear to be very good class), but he competitive nature of the game was incredible.

my favorite nba prospects group are Collier, Stewart, Holland, Edwards, Wagner and Walter.


Agree 100%. You didn't like Bradshaw, Holloway, Biliew, or Castle? I think those guys helped their stock the most yesterday. Wagner should already be considered elite. I think NBA scouts already know this though.


i do like those guys as well. holloway looks like he'll be a surefire star in college, and biliew and castle just missed my list - i saw castle a few times during the season and i came away impressed with him from those games too. absolutely a fan. i still don't know what i think of bradshaw. can't wait to see him at the next level.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#77 » by CptCrunch » Sat Apr 1, 2023 1:05 am

DJ Wagner is playing Cam Boozer tonight - Throne National Championship Semifinal

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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#78 » by CptCrunch » Sat Apr 1, 2023 2:47 am

Boozer had 21/14 with 15 of his team's 17 points.

DJ Wagner looked really good, but not two years older than Boozer better.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#79 » by sisibilio » Sat Apr 1, 2023 5:02 pm

Have only watched a grand total of 8 minutes of him playing yet so can't say much but Nikola Topic (son of Milenko) is murdering opponents in the ANGT Belgrade tournament so far. Today 49/3/12/3 on 2P 10/13 - 3P 3/7 with only 3 TO leading the comeback of his team.
Also doing great in the serbian league

https://www.euroleaguebasketball.net/ngt/







If you want to try to measure the elements of basketball that are supposedly unmeasurable, spend a game just watching Marc Gasol.
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Re: 2024 NBA Draft Thread 

Post#80 » by BostonCouchGM » Fri Apr 7, 2023 7:58 am

Duke4life831 wrote:
jman3134 wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
I was looking for more than just the names, like I know the names in the class.

But to talk about some of the guys you mentioned.

Foster: Most people expect him to be at Duke for multiple years. Hell many dont even think he will be starting at Duke next year.
Wagner: Just like every other #1 ranked recruit in this class, he has failed to live up to the hype of the ranking and lost his spot. 6'3 combo guard who is a solid athlete but nothing too wow about his game.
Bradshaw: What separates Bradshaw from say Lively or Ware from this current class? He's not as long or mobile as Lively is. This is becoming a trend in these high school rankings as of late. They fall in love with these long 7 footers who hit some open 3s and they think theyre this next unicorn.
Holland: skinny 6'8 athlete who really doesnt excel anywhere yet. His handle is just bad for a wing player at this stage in their game and worst of all, his motor is super inconsistent.
Matas: My favorite guy in this class, but he hasnt popped either like many have been waiting for him to do.
Naas: isnt even in this class yet and I actually am at the point where I doubt he does reclass because he is also another guy that many have been waiting to pop and take that next step but he has basically plateaued over the last year and a half.

Hell even during the game last night they mentioned over and over again that they dont really expect any all star level players from this class. This has just been a class where no one has stepped up to be THE guy or a group of guys being in a top tier. This is just a class so far of a bunch of solid guys but no one anyone is excited for.

Like Ive said in other threads, there is a reason why Boozer and Flagg are getting so much hype right now. Its because they're the two best players in basketball right now and theyre both Sophomores. When you have two sophs dominating high school basketball, ya it speaks to how good those two guys are, but it also speaks to how weak the junior and senior classes are.


Flagg and Boozer are great, but just because those are obvious, game changing talents does not mean that the other classes are anything to sneeze at. Wagner is a legit 6'3 lead guard. Some of these players are underdeveloped, sure, but they very much are bringing a different mental approach to the game. It was fully on display last night. Projecting prospects is also about incorporating the mental game into evaluations as much as it is archetypes.

What I didn't like overall was that many of these guys seemed completely out of control making decisions in the backcourt, throwing it ahead. They also kept running ahead even when no rebound was secured. I would say that the rebounding was some of the worst I've ever seen. But, there was a lot to like from a defensive standpoint. Rotations were crisp for an event where most of the guys have not played together, with the exception of Wagner and the bigs (though he was only on the floor with Mgbako for the most part). Offensively, many of these guys have high upside once they physically develop. Cody Williams, Castle, Holloway all jumped out.


I dont put much stock into the actual McDonald's game. Even though guys played harder compared to most all star games (even past McDonald's games), its still an all star game. So ya guys will leak out more than they do in most games and so on. I think similar to like the Summer League, you can take small things like the size of a player vs others, how does their functional athleticism compare to others and so on.

And obviously there are guys with potential, its just the fact that compared to guys normally at this stage, this class (and next year's) leave a lot to be desired. Again the #1 ranking for this class has basically just been musical chairs. And its not because guys are stepping up and taking over the spot, its because no one has really separated themselves.

Like what separates Wagner from Keyonte George? George was the better shooter in high school, Id give the edge to George in the athleticism department as well (theyre pretty similar here though). And most places dont even have George top 10 in their mocks.

Who are the guys right now would you get pumped to land a top 5 pick to get. I think Matas and Collier are the two best guys in the class, but neither guy would sniff a top 3 in most drafts. Just as of right now, again comparing these guys to past classes as they were leaving high school, this class is just behind.

Like I said before, as a die hard Duke fan I would love to be wrong and for this class to be stacked. Because if that is the case and this is a stacked class, well Duke has 5 guys in the top 20, sign me up for that.


listen, if you can't see the difference between Wagner and George with your own eyes there's really nothing I can say that will change your mind.

Who are these "most people expect Foster to be at Duke for multiple years" people lmao? I'm just going to chalk this up to him being passed over for the McDonald's. He absolutely deserved to be there and if he had, any doubters would have been silenced with his play. It wouldn't surprise me if he went anywhere from #1 to #7. As for him starting at Duke, if just going by talent, he should, but they have Proctor, who knows the system and has coach's trust, returning, and isn't without talent himself so I'm not positive Scheyer will start Foster. I'm kinda surprised Proctor is returning. He'd go higher in the weaker 2022 class than he will in the stronger 2023 class that is stacked with guards. He SHOULD back up Foster and McCain but I'm sure there'll be a lot of three guard lineups since Proctor and Foster are both near 6'5". It's going to be tough keeping either Foster or McCain off the floor given their shooting.

I remember when you and most (including gurus and experts on draftf sites) didn't even know who Trae Young was before the first week of the college season had been played. Just because you aren't familiar with or high on certain players doesn't mean they aren't elite. Based on talent, Foster might be your next major miss if you think he will be at Duke for multiple seasons.

The reason there isn't a consensus #1 is because...wait for it...they haven't even stepped foot on a college court yet. I know, it's nuts. But it's actually a really big deal. People do realize most draft classes lack a generational talent like Wembanyam right? Half of the draft classes in the past decade didn't have a consensus #1 guy before the college season began. That is the case with 2024. But it doesn't mean there aren't guys that deserve to be mentioned as potential #1 guys. Any of 6-8 guys could go #1 because the class is that good, not laughably, like many of you are claiming, because it's terrible and nobody is separating.

I've seen the following going #1 or ranked #1 depending on which site you go to:

Wagner
Mara
Buzelis
Risacher
Williams
Cunningham
Edwards

and I'm adding Foster to that list

My prediction is, by December, all of the naysayers will have come around on this draft class except for those on here who have dug in their heels and refuse to take their Ls. By this time next year it will be universally understood (except for a select few on here) that it's better than 2022.

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