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EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:I am old enough to remember pre-draft discussions around shooting deficiencies of Scottie Barnes and Franz Wagner.

1. They are both much taller than Stephon Castle and play completely different positions.
2. Have you actually looked at Barnes and Wagner's shooting %'s? Not so great man. If they weren't good at a lot of other things and if they were significantly shorter, neither would likely have nearly as much positive impact.

Again, I just have to say it's very weird the mental gymnastic people go through to prop up "their favorite guy" as opposed to admitting and seeing their obvious flaws. Castle's shooting is a problem. You can't wish it away that easily if you're doing an honest assessment.

F.Wagner and S.Barnes are the franchise level stars with all their shooting deficiencies. BB is way more than just shooting. Oversimplification of the game is how I read you posts.

this is real, it's a tough bet to make.

Anthony Black, who is one of my favorite prospects in a long time, and a better version of Stephon Castle in many ways, didn't get many mins as a rookie because of the shot

it really is that important in today's NBA

clyde21 wrote:this is real, it's a tough bet to make.

Anthony Black, who is one of my favorite prospects in a long time, and a better version of Stephon Castle in many ways, didn't get many mins as a rookie because of the shot

it really is that important in today's NBA

Black is slower.

esvl wrote:

clyde21 wrote:this is real, it's a tough bet to make.

Anthony Black, who is one of my favorite prospects in a long time, and a better version of Stephon Castle in many ways, didn't get many mins as a rookie because of the shot

it really is that important in today's NBA

Black is slower.

no lol

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:I am old enough to remember pre-draft discussions around shooting deficiencies of Scottie Barnes and Franz Wagner.

1. They are both much taller than Stephon Castle and play completely different positions.
2. Have you actually looked at Barnes and Wagner's shooting %'s? Not so great man. If they weren't good at a lot of other things and if they were significantly shorter, neither would likely have nearly as much positive impact.

Again, I just have to say it's very weird the mental gymnastic people go through to prop up "their favorite guy" as opposed to admitting and seeing their obvious flaws. Castle's shooting is a problem. You can't wish it away that easily if you're doing an honest assessment.

F.Wagner and S.Barnes are the franchise level stars with all their shooting deficiencies. BB is way more than just shooting. Oversimplification of the game is how I read you posts.

So a) it was correct to question shooting (especially in the case of Barnes) and b) you did not acknowledge the vast difference in their player archetypes. That is how I read you posts.

esvl wrote:

clyde21 wrote:this is real, it's a tough bet to make.

Anthony Black, who is one of my favorite prospects in a long time, and a better version of Stephon Castle in many ways, didn't get many mins as a rookie because of the shot

it really is that important in today's NBA

Black is slower.

Castle is not nearly the athlete you seem to think he is.

EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:
1. They are both much taller than Stephon Castle and play completely different positions.
2. Have you actually looked at Barnes and Wagner's shooting %'s? Not so great man. If they weren't good at a lot of other things and if they were significantly shorter, neither would likely have nearly as much positive impact.

Again, I just have to say it's very weird the mental gymnastic people go through to prop up "their favorite guy" as opposed to admitting and seeing their obvious flaws. Castle's shooting is a problem. You can't wish it away that easily if you're doing an honest assessment.

F.Wagner and S.Barnes are the franchise level stars with all their shooting deficiencies. BB is way more than just shooting. Oversimplification of the game is how I read you posts.

So a) it was correct to question shooting (especially in the case of Barnes) and b) you did not acknowledge the vast difference in their player archetypes. That is how I read you posts.

What vast difference, as related to shooting, between the Wagner and Castle positions you are referring to? Shooting is “vastly” less important for SF than for SG?

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:
F.Wagner and S.Barnes are the franchise level stars with all their shooting deficiencies. BB is way more than just shooting. Oversimplification of the game is how I read you posts.

So a) it was correct to question shooting (especially in the case of Barnes) and b) you did not acknowledge the vast difference in their player archetypes. That is how I read you posts.

What vast difference, as related to shooting, between the Wagner and Castle positions you are referring to? Shooting is “vastly” less important for SF than for SG?

Franz at the 3 isn't optimal either, and it's one of the reasons that Black doesn't get many minutes...just doesn't work when u have that many guys that dont really shoot it that well

it's not scalable, and I think the Magic will feel that in these playoffs even though they had a nice year.

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:
F.Wagner and S.Barnes are the franchise level stars with all their shooting deficiencies. BB is way more than just shooting. Oversimplification of the game is how I read you posts.

So a) it was correct to question shooting (especially in the case of Barnes) and b) you did not acknowledge the vast difference in their player archetypes. That is how I read you posts.

What vast difference, as related to shooting, between the Wagner and Castle positions you are referring to? Shooting is “vastly” less important for SF than for SG?

Do you really not understand the importance of size in the NBA? My god man. What game are you watching?

Franz might be a 3 long term if he can shoot. If his shooting fully regresses he will be a 4 or maybe only a 5. This is how the NBA works now. Kuminga is a 3 only if he can shoot. If he can't shoot he has to be a 4 or a 5 in the modern NBA. I didn't make up these rules. Just watch the games guys.

If Castle can't shoot, he will have a very hard time finding his way on the court imo.

EvanZ wrote:

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:
So a) it was correct to question shooting (especially in the case of Barnes) and b) you did not acknowledge the vast difference in their player archetypes. That is how I read you posts.

What vast difference, as related to shooting, between the Wagner and Castle positions you are referring to? Shooting is “vastly” less important for SF than for SG?

Do you really not understand the importance of size in the NBA? My god man. What game are you watching?

Are we discussing size or shooting here?

EvanZ wrote:If Castle can't shoot, he will have a very hard time finding his way on the court imo.

He can be an average shooter as there is nothing wrong with his shooting mechanic, but, unlike 90%+ prospects on this draft, he can be very impactful in many other ways, and he has a proven record. That makes him a top prospect.

I struggle to see him being more than a 10 ppg scorer with his current shooting.
That is assuming he can even get to like 33% on 2 attempts per game at the NBA level.

Now can he do a bunch of little things and be an impactful 24 mpg player his first few years in the league despite the struggle shooting/scoring. I would lean yes, but that limits his upside a great deal.

The-Power wrote:

HadAnEffectHere wrote:Castle's lack of steals and blocks is also super alarming.

While most elite defenders rack up more stocks, it's not like Castle's numbers are historically low or that there aren't examples of good perimeter defenders currently in the league who have had comparable stock numbers in college. I agree that we shouldn't expect him to be a defensive game-changer (very few players his size are) but he has a good chance to turn into a clear plus defender at POA.

Let me say this. As a freshman, Castle is easily in the top-5 perimeter defenders to ever play at UConn. Yeah, Clingan was behind him. But guys just weren't getting by. UConn has a rich tradition of shot-blockers, from Okafor to Boone to Armstrong to Thabeet. You can still tell when a perimeter defender is locking his guy down.

Nadav Henefeld
Ricky Moore
Shabazz/Boatright* (*ramped up in 2014 tournament)
Castle

I'm not saying he's prime Gary Payton but he has the tools to be an excellent defender and denying that based on box scores doesn't just cut it. Cam Spencer averaged 2.0 spg for Rutgers and then 1.5 spg at UConn. I can't even begin to explain how much better of a defender Castle is than Spencer. One guy jumped the passing lane but got beat a lot. The other stuck with his guy, didn't cheat off him, and locked him down. And like you noted, he averaged 0.8 spg in 27 mpg, it's not like he never got steals.

Franz and Scottie Barnes are good arguments for why Cody Williams will succeed, not Castle.

RyugaFan wrote:Franz and Scottie Barnes are good arguments for why Cody Williams will succeed, not Castle.

Cody Williams doesn't have that DAWG in him! Seriously I watched him a lot this season and the dude just seems to go through the motions. He has the size and skills to be good down the line, but if he doesn't have that passion for the game then it won't even matter if those skills develop.

esvl wrote:

EvanZ wrote:If Castle can't shoot, he will have a very hard time finding his way on the court imo.

He can be an average shooter as there is nothing wrong with his shooting mechanic, but, unlike 90%+ prospects on this draft, he can be very impactful in many other ways, and he has a proven record. That makes him a top prospect.

How easy must the nba be if just about any prospect with decent mechanics can work their way to "average nba shooter" fairly easily?

hickfromfrenchlick wrote:

The-Power wrote:

HadAnEffectHere wrote:Castle's lack of steals and blocks is also super alarming.

While most elite defenders rack up more stocks, it's not like Castle's numbers are historically low or that there aren't examples of good perimeter defenders currently in the league who have had comparable stock numbers in college. I agree that we shouldn't expect him to be a defensive game-changer (very few players his size are) but he has a good chance to turn into a clear plus defender at POA.

Let me say this. As a freshman, Castle is easily in the top-5 perimeter defenders to ever play at UConn. Yeah, Clingan was behind him. But guys just weren't getting by. UConn has a rich tradition of shot-blockers, from Okafor to Boone to Armstrong to Thabeet. You can still tell when a perimeter defender is locking his guy down.

Nadav Henefeld
Ricky Moore
Shabazz/Boatright* (*ramped up in 2014 tournament)
Castle


I'm not saying he's prime Gary Payton but he has the tools to be an excellent defender and denying that based on box scores doesn't just cut it. Cam Spencer averaged 2.0 spg for Rutgers and then 1.5 spg at UConn. I can't even begin to explain how much better of a defender Castle is than Spencer. One guy jumped the passing lane but got beat a lot. The other stuck with his guy, didn't cheat off him, and locked him down. And like you noted, he averaged 0.8 spg in 27 mpg, it's not like he never got steals.

All notable HOF-caliber NBA players

JustBuzzin wrote:

RyugaFan wrote:Franz and Scottie Barnes are good arguments for why Cody Williams will succeed, not Castle.

Cody Williams doesn't have that DAWG in him! Seriously I watched him a lot this season and the dude just seems to go through the motions. He has the size and skills to be good down the line, but if he doesn't have that passion for the game then it won't even matter if those skills develop.

I agree. Some younger brothers have the fire to match or exceed their older brothers. Others, they've been afforded a cushier lifestyle and just don't have "it". I'm very worried about Williams. He's a major boom or bust pick to me. He's very similar to Wiggins at Kansas. All kinds of physical talent and skill but seems to lack that thing that makes players great. Maybe he was just coasting and trying to get through the year? Simmons was similar in college. He resented having to even play a year before entering the league. But at least Simmons still produced at a high level. In his defense, Cody was injured a lot and I don't think he was ever comfortable with his face whether he was wearing the mask or not. It might have limited his aggression. Workouts and interviews will be huge for him. He could literally go anywhere in this draft