Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[YogurtProducer]

Bosh was far more naturally talented than Siakam but they forced him into playing a position he didn't want to play (center) and then made him dirty bulk to do it. Of course, he struggled in this situation. He also had very little help.

I didn't like his attitude, but at least he stuck it out for seven years and didn't demand out.

Bosh was good. Siakam was good. Both were good and relatively in the same tier of player. Bosh was probably slightly better.

While I disagree that he was better, if you are going to argue Bosh the use of "slightly" is the best descriptor.

All this "far more talented" and "quite a bit better" talk is just, sorry, stupid. Why cant Raptor fans just appreciate what we have sometimes without just tearing everything down? Sheesh.

[bballsparkin]

In my books I'm taking Bosh all day over Siakam. Marc, Bosh, Ibaka, Lowry, yes please. I feel like people dismiss him on here because he had a bad attitude at the end. For crying out loud LeBron and Wade recruited him. And it's not like it's an insult to Siakam. Bosh is in the HOF. Siakam is still a very good player.

[2019nbachamps]

Bosh was one of the most talented Raptors ever. People forget how good he was.

[Spates]

Is he? They look very similar side by side when you compare them in terms of impact.

The championship as a Raptor is having an impact on people's views.

Bosh had his issues as the alpha, but he was a better alpha than Pascal, and he was a better beta than him too.

Would be an interesting poll to be fair but biases on both sides would find it difficult to get to a consensus.

Again, was he that much better? All the impact metrics seem to have them pretty close. I'd give Bosh the slight edge, but isn't 'quite a bit better'. It's actually pretty close. And no, it isn't the bias of the championship.

09/10 - Chris Bosh - 24, 11 and 2.5 - 59% TS, 3.6 VORP, 3.6 BPM, .182 WS
21/22 - Pascal Siakam - 23, 8 and 5 - 56% TS, 3.6 VORP, 3.5 BPM, .151 WS

Those are two very similar impactful players playing as the #1 role.

Bosh was 5% above league average TS% in 09/10 with a higher usage rate and a less talented roster than Siakam in 21/22. Siakam shot league average. Win shares of 9.6 for Bosh vs 8.1 for Siakam in roughly the same amount of minutes and games played. Siakam: 2578 minutes/68 GP. Bosh: 2526 minutes/70 GP.

[HumbleRen]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

[Scase]

Again, was he that much better? All the impact metrics seem to have them pretty close. I'd give Bosh the slight edge, but isn't 'quite a bit better'. It's actually pretty close. And no, it isn't the bias of the championship.

09/10 - Chris Bosh - 24, 11 and 2.5 - 59% TS, 3.6 VORP, 3.6 BPM, .182 WS
21/22 - Pascal Siakam - 23, 8 and 5 - 56% TS, 3.6 VORP, 3.5 BPM, .151 WS

Those are two very similar impactful players playing as the #1 role.

You have to look at league-average for stats like TS which have shifted over time. And the rest of that 2010 team was pretty trash compared to the 2022 Raptors, Bosh dragged them to 40 wins.

54 vs 56 average TS, so not a massive difference.
The Raptors also had zero bench and had 48 wins.

Agreed that there are obviously factors that come into play and Bosh gets the edge. But 'quite a bit better'? Nah. That's recency bias of always skewing negative.

Lmao you think Bosh putting up 5% over league TS is the same as Siakam putting up league average TS? My god man, why use stats if you don't understand their impact.

Bosh had a VASTLY inferior roster his entire time here than Siakam.

Bosh put up 24ppg when the league average was 100ppg.
Siakam put up 23ppg when the league average was 110ppg.

This is some revisionist history if I've ever seen some. Bosh was selected 4th OA and was chosen to play with LBJ/Wade, while Siakam was selected 27th and wasn't even the real #2 on the chip team. There's a reason why players are selected where they are 99% of the time

Like my guy, go LOOK at those teams. The best player he had was 73 games of VC in his rookie year, and then nothing until DD as a rookie in his last year. There is a reason why people call those the dark ages for this team. Siakam has played with all stars and all defence level players, and in an inflated time of scoring, still couldn't put up similar numbers, on more shot attempts.

[Duffman100]

You have to look at league-average for stats like TS which have shifted over time. And the rest of that 2010 team was pretty trash compared to the 2022 Raptors, Bosh dragged them to 40 wins.

54 vs 56 average TS, so not a massive difference.
The Raptors also had zero bench and had 48 wins.

Agreed that there are obviously factors that come into play and Bosh gets the edge. But 'quite a bit better'? Nah. That's recency bias of always skewing negative.

Lmao you think Bosh putting up 5% over league TS is the same as Siakam putting up league average TS? My god man, why use stats if you don't understand their impact.

Bosh had a VASTLY inferior roster his entire time here than Siakam.

Bosh put up 24ppg when the league average was 100ppg.
Siakam put up 23ppg when the league average was 110ppg.

This is some revisionist history if I've ever seen some. Bosh was selected 4th OA and was chosen to play with LBJ/Wade, while Siakam was selected 27th and wasn't even the real #2 on the chip team. There's a reason why players are selected where they are 99% of the time

Like my guy, go LOOK at those teams. The best player he had was 73 games of VC in his rookie year, and then nothing until DD as a rookie in his last year. There is a reason why people call those the dark ages for this team. Siakam has played with all stars and all defence level players, and in an inflated time of scoring, still couldn't put up similar numbers, on more shot attempts.

I didn't say the TS was the same.

And siakam averaged twice as many assists. Outside of the edge on TS, and Siakam averaging double the assists, their impact was nearly the same.

Siakam had better starters and zero bench or shooting surrounding him.

Both played 3rd fiddle on title teams

There are argument for both players and I already said Bosh got the slight edge. Both to say Bosh is "quite a bit better" than Siakam really isn't backed up by that much other than our fanbases recency bias to hate anything to do with that last era of Raptors basketball.

Also you just said in the Ochai thread that despite Ochai being the 14th pick, he's a lost cause. So I suppose he's the 1%? It's almost like you forget people read your comments on more than one thread.

[Los_29]

Bosh’s peak was higher and he had a longer stretch of stellar play. In their best year they were pretty close in terms of impact though. No one looking at it objectively would say that Bosh was miles ahead of Pascal.

Pascal did what Bosh could never do though and that’s win a title as the team’s 2nd leading scorer.

[2019nbachamps]

Bosh was an 11x all star and it was clear halfway through his career he was destined to the hall. That counts for something. He was hands down better than Pascal. It’s astounding this is even a discussion.

Put this another way: if Bosh was on our 2019 team you don’t think he’d be our 2nd leading scorer? Or if Pascal was on the Heatles, do you really think he’d be the #2 scorer?

Bosh to me was probably top 3-4 among most talented Raptors next to the likes of Vince, Kawhi, and maybe someone else I can’t think of at the moment.

[Los_29]

Bosh was an 11x all star and it was clear halfway through his career he was destined to the hall. That counts for something. He was hands down better than Pascal. It’s astounding this is even a discussion.

Put this another way: if Bosh was on our 2019 team you don’t think he’d be our 2nd leading scorer? Or if Pascal was on the Heatles, do you really think he’d be the #2 scorer?

Bosh to me was probably top 3-4 among most talented Raptors next to the likes of Vince, Kawhi, and maybe someone else I can’t think of at the moment.

Not saying Bosh couldn’t be a 2nd option on a championship team. The point is he never did it. He was the 3rd option on a Heat team that frankly should’ve won more championships than they did.

I agree, he was extremely talented. Would put him 3rd behind Kawhi and Vince.

His best year was better and his overall accomplishments are far better due to longevity. However, he was only an ALL-NBA second team once in his career. Pascal has been an ALL-NBA second and third team. I would rather have Bosh but they aren’t miles apart.

[WaltFrazier]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Yeah as Bosh became a three point threat in Miami, he became a player more suited to the changing NBA than when he came in. If he never had the heart issue and came back to Toronto in 2020 or after, he'd have been a fantastic stretch 5 here.

Just fantasy I know. But even though he's not so likable, it's a shame his career ended prematurely, same with anyone that happens to.

[PushDaRock]

Looking back you can't even blame Bosh for leaving. That team was going nowhere. If not for the Rep Tdot till they bury me stuff the summer before, he likely gets nowhere near the same hate.

[Zeno]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Put Siakam in place of Siakam in that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Put Siakam in place of Siakam in that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

All we needed to get past the Celtics that series was Norm Powell to box out off a missed free throw.

There's a lot of revisionist history re Bosh here. He wasn't a stretch 5 until he had to be. If Bosh was still playing with Toronto he would have demanded first option touches and stayed explicitly in the midrange, like LaMarcus Aldridge did, for his whole career. He didn't even want to defer to LeBron and Wade when he first got in Miami. Siakam adapted his style of play in a contract year for a team that didn't even want him.

[720]

Looking back you can't even blame Bosh for leaving. That team was going nowhere. If not for the Rep Tdot till they bury me stuff the summer before, he likely gets nowhere near the same hate.

He got a lot of hate because he bad mouthed the city on the way out.

[Scase]

54 vs 56 average TS, so not a massive difference.
The Raptors also had zero bench and had 48 wins.

Agreed that there are obviously factors that come into play and Bosh gets the edge. But 'quite a bit better'? Nah. That's recency bias of always skewing negative.

Lmao you think Bosh putting up 5% over league TS is the same as Siakam putting up league average TS? My god man, why use stats if you don't understand their impact.

Bosh had a VASTLY inferior roster his entire time here than Siakam.

Bosh put up 24ppg when the league average was 100ppg.
Siakam put up 23ppg when the league average was 110ppg.

This is some revisionist history if I've ever seen some. Bosh was selected 4th OA and was chosen to play with LBJ/Wade, while Siakam was selected 27th and wasn't even the real #2 on the chip team. There's a reason why players are selected where they are 99% of the time

Like my guy, go LOOK at those teams. The best player he had was 73 games of VC in his rookie year, and then nothing until DD as a rookie in his last year. There is a reason why people call those the dark ages for this team. Siakam has played with all stars and all defence level players, and in an inflated time of scoring, still couldn't put up similar numbers, on more shot attempts.

I didn't say the TS was the same.

And siakam averaged twice as many assists. Outside of the edge on TS, and Siakam averaging double the assists, their impact was nearly the same.

Siakam had better starters and zero bench or shooting surrounding him.

Both played 3rd fiddle on title teams

There are argument for both players and I already said Bosh got the slight edge. Both to say Bosh is "quite a bit better" than Siakam really isn't backed up by that much other than our fanbases recency bias to hate anything to do with that last era of Raptors basketball.

Also you just said in the Ochai thread that despite Ochai being the 14th pick, he's a lost cause. So I suppose he's the 1%? It's almost like you forget people read your comments on more than one thread.

You literally said "not a massive difference". 5% above league average, vs league average, is a MASSIVE difference. Again, don't quote stats if you don't understand their impact.

It's not an "edge", it is a massive gulf. Unlike the assists which is barely an edge, a higher APG and PPG league wide results in inflated stats.

Saying Siakam ha better starters and no bench, is a funny way of saying he flat out had a better team, you know, without being able to admit it. Every single starter on that team, would have been the second best player on Bosh's team. Siakam had the superior player at every position (aside from his ironically) and only managed 8 more wins.

Bosh played 3rd fiddle.....to Lebron **** James, and arguably the second greatest SG in NBA history. This is the most dishonest argument I've seen you make yet, bravo.

Also congrats on reading other comments, almost like it's your responsibility or something. But hey, bring up things that are completely and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand because you are incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were. More deflections here than OG.

[PushDaRock]

Looking back you can't even blame Bosh for leaving. That team was going nowhere. If not for the Rep Tdot till they bury me stuff the summer before, he likely gets nowhere near the same hate.

He got a lot of hate because he bad mouthed the city on the way out.

I don't know that whining about customs and cable tv packages is really bad mouthing the city.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Looking back you can't even blame Bosh for leaving. That team was going nowhere. If not for the Rep Tdot till they bury me stuff the summer before, he likely gets nowhere near the same hate.

He got a lot of hate because he bad mouthed the city on the way out.

I don't know that whining about customs and cable tv packages is really bad mouthing the city.

He literally said the city smelled

Anyway, I don't think people blame Bosh for wanting to leave. The Raptors blew the VC trade and two high lotto picks while he was here. It was almost impossible to recover from that. Since this thread is about the Siakam trade, there are some similarities in how the franchise is making things difficult for themselves early on.

[YogurtProducer]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Put Siakam in place of Siakam in that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Siakam was still a stud defensively that series which is something Bosh was not.

2020 is still the biggest what-if. Without COVID I think we are in the ECF and possibly the finals.

[Duffman100]

Lmao you think Bosh putting up 5% over league TS is the same as Siakam putting up league average TS? My god man, why use stats if you don't understand their impact.

Bosh had a VASTLY inferior roster his entire time here than Siakam.

Bosh put up 24ppg when the league average was 100ppg.
Siakam put up 23ppg when the league average was 110ppg.

This is some revisionist history if I've ever seen some. Bosh was selected 4th OA and was chosen to play with LBJ/Wade, while Siakam was selected 27th and wasn't even the real #2 on the chip team. There's a reason why players are selected where they are 99% of the time

Like my guy, go LOOK at those teams. The best player he had was 73 games of VC in his rookie year, and then nothing until DD as a rookie in his last year. There is a reason why people call those the dark ages for this team. Siakam has played with all stars and all defence level players, and in an inflated time of scoring, still couldn't put up similar numbers, on more shot attempts.

I didn't say the TS was the same.

And siakam averaged twice as many assists. Outside of the edge on TS, and Siakam averaging double the assists, their impact was nearly the same.

Siakam had better starters and zero bench or shooting surrounding him.

Both played 3rd fiddle on title teams

There are argument for both players and I already said Bosh got the slight edge. Both to say Bosh is "quite a bit better" than Siakam really isn't backed up by that much other than our fanbases recency bias to hate anything to do with that last era of Raptors basketball.

Also you just said in the Ochai thread that despite Ochai being the 14th pick, he's a lost cause. So I suppose he's the 1%? It's almost like you forget people read your comments on more than one thread.

You literally said "not a massive difference". 5% above league average, vs league average, is a MASSIVE difference. Again, don't quote stats if you don't understand their impact.

It's not an "edge", it is a massive gulf. Unlike the assists which is barely an edge, a higher APG and PPG league wide results in inflated stats.

Saying Siakam ha better starters and no bench, is a funny way of saying he flat out had a better team, you know, without being able to admit it. Every single starter on that team, would have been the second best player on Bosh's team. Siakam had the superior player at every position (aside from his ironically) and only managed 8 more wins.

Bosh played 3rd fiddle.....to Lebron **** James, and arguably the second greatest SG in NBA history. This is the most dishonest argument I've seen you make yet, bravo.

Also congrats on reading other comments, almost like it's your responsibility or something. But hey, bring up things that are completely and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand because you are incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were. More deflections here than OG.

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.