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[Duffman100]

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

[will]

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

Tough to put that strength to use in crunch time when you're an absolute liability at the FT line.

[Duffman100]

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

Tough to put that strength to use in crunch time when you're an absolute liability at the FT line.

Agreed. No argument there. But he also has a non crunch time impact that is strong.

Also tough for turner to make stops in crunch time when he isn't that great of a defender.

[Chandan]

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yak is not so great on defense. He's 31st defensive WS among centers on nba.com (I don't want to argue who is a center or not. I just go by what they list at)
He's a tall, unexplosive dude with decent footwork and positioning that's it. If anything he's leaning towards the cumbersome side if you compare him with your average big men as he get worned down by age. He will surprise a rim runner once in a while but he isn't deterring anyone from scoring around the basket. And when it comes to the matching up against the premiere big men of the league they take his breakfast, lunch, dinner and everything in between.

[JB7]

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yak is not so great on defense. He's 31st defensive WS among centers on nba.com (I don't want to argue who is a center or not. I just go by what they list at)
He's a tall, unexplosive dude with decent footwork and positioning that's it. If anything he's leaning towards the cumbersome side if you compare him with your average big men as he get worned down by age. He will surprise a rim runner once in a while but he isn't deterring anyone from scoring around the basket. And when it comes to the matching up against the premiere big men of the league they take his breakfast, lunch, dinner and everything in between.

Against the premiere big men, I would take Yak defensively against those guys, than say Turner, Mobley, J. Jackson, who are good shot blockers but can’t handle size and get bodied, or in Turner’s case is just a poor defender.

[Chandan]

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

[Duffman100]

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

[JB7]

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

Exactly. It is about scoring efficiency. He is not one of their top scorers, but he is efficient when he does score.

[JB7]

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

Tough to put that strength to use in crunch time when you're an absolute liability at the FT line.

He doesn’t need to put that strength to use at the end of games. A great thing about Yak is they can easily sub him out at the end of games if his FT shooting is an issue, and go with Barnes or KO at C. Many of the starting C’s would have a huge issue if they were pulled at the end of games, but he is smart enough to know his limitations and not be pissed off by being subbed out.

Also, if Yak was a good FT and 3pt shooter, not only would they not have picked him up for an 8th pick in a weak draft, but he probably wouldn’t have been dealt in the first place.

It is that limitation that helped make him available and meant he was only going to cost $20M.

He can be used for 30+ mins a game to absorb the physical play, saving Barnes from having to be subjected to it, and then the team can turn to a Barnes or KO at the end of games for specific situations.

[Chandan]

Yeah one of Poeltls greatest strength is that he is a top 5 finisher around the rim. Maybe even top 3. To omit that is intentionally leaving out one of his greatest strengths.

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

But you need to keep the ball out of his hands in crutch time due to his 55% FT. So he's only hyper efficient when it doesn't matter.
At his current volume he's not someone teams are worried about.

[Duffman100]

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

But you need to keep the ball out of his hands in crutch time due to his 55% FT. So he's only hyper efficient when it doesn't matter.
At his current volume he's not someone teams are worried about.

The rest of the game matters.

And that's why he only costs 19.5 flat.

[Chandan]

He averages 11 points a game. Didn't break 20 points a single time this season. I don't think teams are game planning against this top 3 finisher. Not much to write about to be honest.

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

Exactly. It is about scoring efficiency. He is not one of their top scorers, but he is efficient when he does score.

Look at the league leader at FG%. Most of their real value is mobile/vertical rim protection, otherwise they are players who are super efficient while scoring at a way higher volume.
Sure you dont say no to 10 points at 65%, but it's overall impact is pretty tiny and hardly worth mentioning.

[JB7]

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

Exactly. It is about scoring efficiency. He is not one of their top scorers, but he is efficient when he does score.

Look at the league leader at FG%. Most of their real value is mobile/vertical rim protection, otherwise they are players who are super efficient while scoring at a way higher volume.
Sure you dont say no to 10 points at 65%, but its overall impact is pretty tiny and hardly worth mentioning.

So I see 2 players on that list who fit that description perfectly in Mobley and Allen, and how have they performed in the most impactful situations, in the playoffs, not that well I would say.

[Chandan]

A hyper efficient 11-13 points per game from a guy who doesn't need the ball in his hands ? That's actually pretty valuable

But you need to keep the ball out of his hands in crutch time due to his 55% FT. So he's only hyper efficient when it doesn't matter.
At his current volume he's not someone teams are worried about.

The rest of the game matters.

And that's why he only costs 19.5 flat.

yeah but his top 5 finishing around the rim isn't that great of a strength at all. Even if he finishes 5% higher or 5% lower, at 7-8 FGA per game the difference is pretty neglectable. It's at best a bonus couple with the fact that they are not a high impact 11 points.

[Chandan]

Also, if Yak was a good FT and 3pt shooter, not only would they not have picked him up for an 8th pick in a weak draft, but he probably wouldn’t have been dealt in the first place.

Yeah they would have just let him expire. I wonder why SA didn't want a big body to protect Wemby who is like a stick compared to barnes.

[JB7]

Also, if Yak was a good FT and 3pt shooter, not only would they not have picked him up for an 8th pick in a weak draft, but he probably wouldn’t have been dealt in the first place.

Yeah they would have just let him expire. I wonder why SA didn't want a big body to protect Wemby who is like a stick compared to barnes.

They traded Yak because they knew he had value, and they were still in the process of tanking for a chance at Wemby. Same reason they traded Dejounte.

[RoteSchroder]

Do teams want a 3 point shooting, shot blocking big that can knock down FT at a 77% career average clip?
Or
Do teams want a rebounding, shot blocking big that cannot hit FT?

If you consider shot blocking the be all and end of all of defence, then Turner is your man. But part of the reason the Pacers are so horrible defensively is because of Turner.

And he is a big that is not great at scoring at the rim, and not very mobile.

So you get shot blocking and 3pt shooting, but no scoring around the rim, offensive or defensive rebounding, which are probably the most critical roles of a big.

Yak is not so great on defense. He's 31st defensive WS among centers on nba.com (I don't want to argue who is a center or not. I just go by what they list at)

Realistically, he's around 20 when you combine that with DBPM and consider that bench players don't go up against top talent. Def WS isn't a good indicator and it seems like team defense can help boost your WS (KAT at 4, Randle at 15)

[Scase]

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

How is it a reach? When you acquire any player, you are factoring in what the potential return for that acquired player could look like in the future if they are to be moved. If that's not something you're looking at, you're doing it wrong.

I don't think not having the number 8 pick in a historically terrible draft is something so devastating that can't be recovered from. It's not the ideal situation and like I said the trade probably wouldn't be made in hindsight but it's not a disaster.

Are you saying none of these playoff teams you're watching could use a player like Poeltl right now? He's on a descending deal where 20m in a year or 2 looks like a real potential bargain with the rising cap if Poeltl maintains this level of play.

The only team that would have legitimate use for him is potentially OKC, and even then it's a stretch.

[Scase]

I am saying the hypothetical return for Poeltl plays a factor in judging how bad the trade actually was. Likewise if Poeltl now suddenly ends up turning into a complete scrub and becomes not even tradeable, that would shift the trade into complete unmitigated disaster territory.

I was ok with acquiring Poeltl but wanted the pick lotto protected. I would guess a decent of people thought the same. Sure, you could say there was a case for blowing it up right then and there too but there was also a reasonable case seeing if adding the 5 the team desperately needed would help turn things around after a disappointing season where the team underperformed.

I am saying hindsight as in FVV, OG and Siakam would all be gone. If you knew that would happen, the Poeltl move makes little sense because he better fits the timeline of that core not the current one.

You don't need hindsight to think it's a risky and bad idea, to make a trade around the concept of your UFA not signing with you. It's a risky and bad idea to make that trade, when you are the 6th worst team in the NBA at the time. It's an even riskier and worse idea to make that trade, when you have another 2 major UFAs the next year without any extension talks in sight. None of that requires hindsight, all it requires is a pulse.

As for the hypothetical return, you are really reaching here. I guess the Suns didn't completely **** up, cause who knows they might be able to get some good returns for an aging KD right? Sometimes, bad things are bad, and you can just call them that. Kicking the can down the road is our FOs job.

Jak is turning 29 by the beginning of next season, and his skillset is out of date by 10-20 years. I don't see how you can possibly convince yourself that a slow, aging centre that lacks the skillset needed for the modern NBA, could possibly have decent value in the future. Our best hope is that we trade him this summer, outside of that his value goes down year by year, and will never come remotely close to a top 10 pick.

If you had a choice between Turner and Yak, who would you pick?

Turner and Yak are both 28 (160 days separating birth), Yak is signed for 3 more years at $19.5M, while Turner has one more year at $19.9M.

Ideally neither as they are both win now moves and I don't want us headed in that direction. But if that was the play, turner 100% of the time. He's the prototypical modern centre, Jak is 10-20 years out of date. Why in gods name would you pick a player who cant play 4ft+ from the rim, cant hit FTs, cant be played in the 4th, and only offers decent defence?

[LBJKB24MJ23]

at least the pick was moved two spaces back. this would have been the best case scenario to convey the pick