What to do with Bruce?

[billy_hoyle]

I'd be packaging Bruce with a pick to move up in the draft. OKC can absorb his contract. We still get cap space and we can target a late lottery faller...Holland? Cody Williams? Guarantee we get Collier/Carter/McCain?

[sidsid]

Conveying the pick opens the door to 2 paths depending on how they want to approach it:

- Tanking next year: that means trading Jak for assets which may or may not open extra space. Typical tanking means we would take on dead money for Bruce. Might be before or after the draft. Sign or S&T Gary to another team.

- Being mid next year: exploring cap space for an upgrade over Gary, or sign our guys and keep Brown until at least the deadline.

We should of course, tank.

[ConSarnit]

This was the same argument for not trading FVV, we couldve had a second and Grayson Allen who is objectively one of the best 3p shooters in the NBA. But everyone clowned on it, and we got nothing. BB is shaping up to be the same result, albeit not as bad as a fumble, but still pretty bad.

This has been the FOs issue for years, hold onto a player to get the absolute maximum value....and then never get it, lose them, or trade them for less than the original offers. We need to stop letting the league dictate how WE trade.

Even worse we turned down Grayson Allen and a first just to lose Fred for nothing. I’ve pretty much just ignored player assessments from posters on this board. They think every non superstar players suck and every Raptors player is a blossoming allstar or super role player lol. I have zero expectations that we’d get anything good for BB, the ship has sailed, probably better to just waive him and use the capspace as a salary dump ironically

Read on Twitter

Ah yeah you're right, it was a pick in the 20's not a second rounder, thanks!

You guys are comparing the Brown deal with the possible FVV trade and it's not the same thing. You're leaving out a bunch of context here.

-FVV was an expiring. Brown is not. That leaves another year for a Brown trade to materialize

-the Raptors intended to re-sign FVV so why would they trade him?

-the Houston offer didn't even exist at the point of the trade deadline Bucks rumor. Udoka didn't become head coach until April (after the trade deadline). All of the reporting indicates that prior to Udoka's hiring Houston was targeting a Harden return but Udoka pushed for FVV. FVV got poached by Houston based on a timeline that would have made it impossible for the Raptors to have known he was being targeted.

The Raptors may have traded FVV if the offer was overwhelming but they didn't because they were trying to re-sign him. The Houston option never even materialized until after the trade deadline which would have been impossible to foresee. There was no way to know that a massive Houston overpay was a possibility because the person responsible for it (Udoka) didn't even work for the team until after the season had completed.

And I'll say it again: it's a risk to keep Brown on hoping for a decent return. If the return is a late 1st in a terrible draft then it's probably a risk worth taking because that's a very low bar to clear. If we get nothing back that will be disappointing but what we're talking about missing out on is the equivalent of a 2nd in almost any other year.

[sidsid]

Even worse we turned down Grayson Allen and a first just to lose Fred for nothing. I’ve pretty much just ignored player assessments from posters on this board. They think every non superstar players suck and every Raptors player is a blossoming allstar or super role player lol. I have zero expectations that we’d get anything good for BB, the ship has sailed, probably better to just waive him and use the capspace as a salary dump ironically

Read on Twitter

Ah yeah you're right, it was a pick in the 20's not a second rounder, thanks!

You guys are comparing the Brown deal with the possible FVV trade and it's not the same thing. You're leaving out a bunch of context here.

-FVV was an expiring. Brown is not. That leaves another year for a Brown trade to materialize

-the Raptors intended to re-sign FVV so why would they trade him?

-the Houston offer didn't even exist at the point of the trade deadline Bucks rumor. Udoka didn't become head coach until April (after the trade deadline). All of the reporting indicates that prior to Udoka's hiring Houston was targeting a Harden return but Udoka pushed for FVV. FVV got poached by Houston based on a timeline that would have made it impossible for the Raptors to have known he was being targeted.

The Raptors may have traded FVV if the offer was overwhelming but they didn't because they were trying to re-sign him. The Houston option never even materialized until after the trade deadline which would have been impossible to foresee. There was no way to know that a massive Houston overpay was a possibility because the person responsible for it (Udoka) didn't even work for the team until after the season had completed.

And I'll say it again: it's a risk to keep Brown on hoping for a decent return. If the return is a late 1st in a terrible draft then it's probably a risk worth taking because that's a very low bar to clear. If we get nothing back that will be disappointing but what we're talking about missing out on is the equivalent of a 2nd in almost any other year.

The sequence of events and, more importantly, the direction you're taking is often more important than the direct return of a transaction.

The FVV deadline had all options in the air. Siakam and OG on the trading block, Jak as an acquisition. And they're all premised on two paths.

1. Tanking for a generational talent
2. Being a mediocre play-in team

You can accomplish 1 by trading Fred for the best deal available and shutting down the rest for the season, and 2 by trading for Jak. It's an easy decision to trade Fred if 1 is the goal. You don't worry about re-signing role players in that direction.

The Brown situation is far more muddled because the FO is fairly rudderless at the moment and had no control over the pick outcome. If the purported goal is to open up space then you just take the underwhelming pick this year and ensure the cap space.

But this FO has been fine with kicking the can for a half-decade while bleeding assets and value along the way. So we're here now. Again.

[Scase]

Even worse we turned down Grayson Allen and a first just to lose Fred for nothing. I’ve pretty much just ignored player assessments from posters on this board. They think every non superstar players suck and every Raptors player is a blossoming allstar or super role player lol. I have zero expectations that we’d get anything good for BB, the ship has sailed, probably better to just waive him and use the capspace as a salary dump ironically

Read on Twitter

Ah yeah you're right, it was a pick in the 20's not a second rounder, thanks!

You guys are comparing the Brown deal with the possible FVV trade and it's not the same thing. You're leaving out a bunch of context here.

-FVV was an expiring. Brown is not. That leaves another year for a Brown trade to materialize

-the Raptors intended to re-sign FVV so why would they trade him?

-the Houston offer didn't even exist at the point of the trade deadline Bucks rumor. Udoka didn't become head coach until April (after the trade deadline). All of the reporting indicates that prior to Udoka's hiring Houston was targeting a Harden return but Udoka pushed for FVV. FVV got poached by Houston based on a timeline that would have made it impossible for the Raptors to have known he was being targeted.

The Raptors may have traded FVV if the offer was overwhelming but they didn't because they were trying to re-sign him. The Houston option never even materialized until after the trade deadline which would have been impossible to foresee. There was no way to know that a massive Houston overpay was a possibility because the person responsible for it (Udoka) didn't even work for the team until after the season had completed.

And I'll say it again: it's a risk to keep Brown on hoping for a decent return. If the return is a late 1st in a terrible draft then it's probably a risk worth taking because that's a very low bar to clear. If we get nothing back that will be disappointing but what we're talking about missing out on is the equivalent of a 2nd in almost any other year.

BB is and was an expiring, if the team trading chose not to exercise the final year. That was literally 99% of his value, trade for him, if he fits and plays well, awesome pick up the option. If not, don't pick it up, and enjoy 20mil+ in expiring contracts.

But because we waited, you lose the vast majority of that value. And now you are trading outright for an expiring. Except WE are the team now that has to put up the risk because he cannot be traded unless we pick up his option. Pick it up and get nothing in terms of good offers, guess what, you just wasted 20mil+ cap space as a rebuilding team who can take that on in bad salaries and get assets back.

Or the best case scenario, we end up getting lowballed....because again we are dealing from a position of weakness, and we should have moved him earlier. Are you noticing a pattern yet?

As for the FVV, I brought it up because it's a similar enough situation with how we are approaching it. Not cause the situations themselves are the same.

It all comes down to the same thing, evaluate, play chicken with other FO's trying to BS your way into maximum value, wait too long, get a worse (or no) return, end up worse than you started. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Different payers, different situations, same tactics, same results.

[will]

Ah yeah you're right, it was a pick in the 20's not a second rounder, thanks!

You guys are comparing the Brown deal with the possible FVV trade and it's not the same thing. You're leaving out a bunch of context here.

-FVV was an expiring. Brown is not. That leaves another year for a Brown trade to materialize

-the Raptors intended to re-sign FVV so why would they trade him?

-the Houston offer didn't even exist at the point of the trade deadline Bucks rumor. Udoka didn't become head coach until April (after the trade deadline). All of the reporting indicates that prior to Udoka's hiring Houston was targeting a Harden return but Udoka pushed for FVV. FVV got poached by Houston based on a timeline that would have made it impossible for the Raptors to have known he was being targeted.

The Raptors may have traded FVV if the offer was overwhelming but they didn't because they were trying to re-sign him. The Houston option never even materialized until after the trade deadline which would have been impossible to foresee. There was no way to know that a massive Houston overpay was a possibility because the person responsible for it (Udoka) didn't even work for the team until after the season had completed.

And I'll say it again: it's a risk to keep Brown on hoping for a decent return. If the return is a late 1st in a terrible draft then it's probably a risk worth taking because that's a very low bar to clear. If we get nothing back that will be disappointing but what we're talking about missing out on is the equivalent of a 2nd in almost any other year.

BB is and was an expiring, if the team trading chose not to exercise the final year. That was literally 99% of his value, trade for him, if he fits and plays well, awesome pick up the option. If not, don't pick it up, and enjoy 20mil+ in expiring contracts.

But because we waited, you lose the vast majority of that value. And now you are trading outright for an expiring. Except WE are the team now that has to put up the risk because he cannot be traded unless we pick up his option. Pick it up and get nothing in terms of good offers, guess what, you just wasted 20mil+ cap space as a rebuilding team who can take that on in bad salaries and get assets back.

Or the best case scenario, we end up getting lowballed....because again we are dealing from a position of weakness, and we should have moved him earlier. Are you noticing a pattern yet?

As for the FVV, I brought it up because it's a similar enough situation with how we are approaching it. Not cause the situations themselves are the same.

It all comes down to the same thing, evaluate, play chicken with other FO's trying to BS your way into maximum value, wait too long, get a worse (or no) return, end up worse than you started. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Different payers, different situations, same tactics, same results.

Playing chicken with other teams with Bruce Brown as the 'asset' is actually very amusing!!!

[will]

Ah yeah you're right, it was a pick in the 20's not a second rounder, thanks!

You guys are comparing the Brown deal with the possible FVV trade and it's not the same thing. You're leaving out a bunch of context here.

-FVV was an expiring. Brown is not. That leaves another year for a Brown trade to materialize

-the Raptors intended to re-sign FVV so why would they trade him?

-the Houston offer didn't even exist at the point of the trade deadline Bucks rumor. Udoka didn't become head coach until April (after the trade deadline). All of the reporting indicates that prior to Udoka's hiring Houston was targeting a Harden return but Udoka pushed for FVV. FVV got poached by Houston based on a timeline that would have made it impossible for the Raptors to have known he was being targeted.

The Raptors may have traded FVV if the offer was overwhelming but they didn't because they were trying to re-sign him. The Houston option never even materialized until after the trade deadline which would have been impossible to foresee. There was no way to know that a massive Houston overpay was a possibility because the person responsible for it (Udoka) didn't even work for the team until after the season had completed.

And I'll say it again: it's a risk to keep Brown on hoping for a decent return. If the return is a late 1st in a terrible draft then it's probably a risk worth taking because that's a very low bar to clear. If we get nothing back that will be disappointing but what we're talking about missing out on is the equivalent of a 2nd in almost any other year.

BB is and was an expiring, if the team trading chose not to exercise the final year. That was literally 99% of his value, trade for him, if he fits and plays well, awesome pick up the option. If not, don't pick it up, and enjoy 20mil+ in expiring contracts.

But because we waited, you lose the vast majority of that value. And now you are trading outright for an expiring. Except WE are the team now that has to put up the risk because he cannot be traded unless we pick up his option. Pick it up and get nothing in terms of good offers, guess what, you just wasted 20mil+ cap space as a rebuilding team who can take that on in bad salaries and get assets back.

Or the best case scenario, we end up getting lowballed....because again we are dealing from a position of weakness, and we should have moved him earlier. Are you noticing a pattern yet?

As for the FVV, I brought it up because it's a similar enough situation with how we are approaching it. Not cause the situations themselves are the same.

It all comes down to the same thing, evaluate, play chicken with other FO's trying to BS your way into maximum value, wait too long, get a worse (or no) return, end up worse than you started. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Different payers, different situations, same tactics, same results.

Playing chicken with other teams with Bruce Brown as the 'asset' is actually very amusing!!!

[Pointgod]

Remember when you’re proposing trades, what’s in it for the other team? We have to opt into Bruce brown’s last year so if we trade him to another team we have to take similar salary back to make it work. There’s little incentive for a team to trading an expiring and a first round pick for an expiring contract unless the guy is a big time player. So if we want a better pick we’re taking back longer salaries and more salary if there’s a team willing to trade a first for an expiring contract.

If teams are looking for immediate relief, we cut Brown and just take on salary to provide them immediate salary relief. This makes sense but the front office might want to rehabilitate Brown or believe he plays a major part on next season’s team.

[Kevin Willis]

Bruce Lee? I would keep him to shadow James Johnson.

[C_Money]

It wouldn’t surprise me at all if he’s still on the team next year. Likely gets traded at the deadline.

[isyed]

Why is everyone missing the point that we can trade BB to a team that needs cap relief and then that team can Deline the option to save money. Teams close to the second apron with no chance of improving are biggest candidates.

Warriors for Wiggins and 2025 pick
Clippers for norm straight up
Miami for Duncan Robinson and 2024 15th pick

Some options that give us flexibility and the opposing team some money back.

Sent from my SM-F946W using RealGM mobile app

[douggood]

Why is everyone missing the point that we can trade BB to a team that needs cap relief and then that team can Deline the option to save money. Teams close to the second apron with no chance of improving are biggest candidates.

Warriors for Wiggins and 2025 pick
Clippers for norm straight up
Miami for Duncan Robinson and 2024 15th pick

Some options that give us flexibility and the opposing team some money back.

Sent from my SM-F946W using RealGM mobile app

not how the cba works, you have to pick up the option before you can trade him.

[DreamTeam09]

Why is everyone missing the point that we can trade BB to a team that needs cap relief and then that team can Deline the option to save money. Teams close to the second apron with no chance of improving are biggest candidates.

Warriors for Wiggins and 2025 pick
Clippers for norm straight up
Miami for Duncan Robinson and 2024 15th pick

Some options that give us flexibility and the opposing team some money back.

Sent from my SM-F946W using RealGM mobile app

I believe that the option has to get picked up in order to be traded.

The relief comes in the form that some teams will not want to be a repeater tax or double repeater tax team. By acquiring brown expiring contract that has been picked up for the 24-25szn, we would be looking to take on a contract with 2-3 yrs left of the deal & the receiving team receives a former champion who played a key multifaceted role for em...

[DreamTeam09]

Remember when you’re proposing trades, what’s in it for the other team? We have to opt into Bruce brown’s last year so if we trade him to another team we have to take similar salary back to make it work. There’s little incentive for a team to trading an expiring and a first round pick for an expiring contract unless the guy is a big time player. So if we want a better pick we’re taking back longer salaries and more salary if there’s a team willing to trade a first for an expiring contract.

If teams are looking for immediate relief, we cut Brown and just take on salary to provide them immediate salary relief. This makes sense but the front office might want to rehabilitate Brown or believe he plays a major part on next season’s team.

what's in it for the other team is freeing up space on their future books, we would be looking at a player with 2 or 3 yrs left on their deal, the other team would be looking to avoid future repeater taxes or just clearing up future books

[psman2]

Why is everyone missing the point that we can trade BB to a team that needs cap relief and then that team can Deline the option to save money. Teams close to the second apron with no chance of improving are biggest candidates.

Warriors for Wiggins and 2025 pick
Clippers for norm straight up
Miami for Duncan Robinson and 2024 15th pick

Some options that give us flexibility and the opposing team some money back.

Sent from my SM-F946W using RealGM mobile app

The NBA hasn't worked that way in long time. That option was gone several CBAs ago.

You have to GTD his contract first before you can trade it. There is no way for Toronto to trade him for a guy making 20m gtd and then the team that gets Brown and cut him with no cap hit. From an outsiders perspective Tor is going to be lucky to get matching expirings and some 2nds for BB. Brown is simply not worth 23m on the open market. He is a MLE level guy. So you going to have to find a team that has much worse expirings contracts and the need for Brown to be able to squeeze any value out of him. Now maybe a team does want to dump some longer term salary and that could come into play, but the cap savings wouldn't be next year for the most part.

GS is no longer in tax hell, they are very little incentive to do this now.
Clippers print money don't think they are worried about tax savings two years away.
Duncan was the better player last year. Miami is not worried about cap space two years from now.

[ArthurVandelay]

For the love of all that is sacred and pure…

We need a sticky on main page right above forum rules that spells out you CAN’T trade BB without picking up his option FIRST.

It’s only been said 7 or 8 dozen times in the last week.

[MiamiSPX]

For the love of all that is sacred and pure…

We need a sticky on main page right above forum rules that spells out you CAN’T trade BB without picking up his option FIRST.

It’s only been said 7 or 8 dozen times in the last week.

I believe at least 10 times in this thread alone. To be fair though, I think there was a media outlet (can't remember which) that falsely reported it this way.

[Merit]

For the love of all that is sacred and pure…

We need a sticky on main page right above forum rules that spells out you CAN’T trade BB without picking up his option FIRST.

It’s only been said 7 or 8 dozen times in the last week.

This is the reason for targeting players who have longer contracts eg. Wiggins.

[Pointgod]

Remember when you’re proposing trades, what’s in it for the other team? We have to opt into Bruce brown’s last year so if we trade him to another team we have to take similar salary back to make it work. There’s little incentive for a team to trading an expiring and a first round pick for an expiring contract unless the guy is a big time player. So if we want a better pick we’re taking back longer salaries and more salary if there’s a team willing to trade a first for an expiring contract.

If teams are looking for immediate relief, we cut Brown and just take on salary to provide them immediate salary relief. This makes sense but the front office might want to rehabilitate Brown or believe he plays a major part on next season’s team.

what's in it for the other team is freeing up space on their future books, we would be looking at a player with 2 or 3 yrs left on their deal, the other team would be looking to avoid future repeater taxes or just clearing up future books

Yeah that’s a fair approach but how many teams have large 2-3 year contracts that they want to get off their books that also have a first to trade. Also who’s to say our front office will want to take on 40 to 60 million of contracts. Here’s a trade along the lines of what you’re thinking:

The Golden State Warriors have acquired 12-time NBA All-Star guard Chris Paul from the Washington Wizards in exchange for forward Patrick Baldwin Jr., guard Jordan Poole, guard Ryan Rollins, a 2027 second round draft pick and a 2030 first round draft pick (top 20 protected), it was announced today.

We’re talking a really bad salary for the trade to make sense for another team to drop a first. I’d do it but not sure if our front office wants to take on long term salary with Quickley’s and Barnes’ upcoming extensions.

This is the type of trade that makes sense to me, but for that we have to waive Brown and open up capspace. Instant cap relief for a team salary dumping contracts.

For the Nets to take on the two years and $30 million left on Carroll's contract, the Raptors will attach a 2018 lottery-protected first-round and second-round pick to the deal, league sources said.

I do the trade in either scenario but you have to really think of the incentive for the team trading with the Raptors. This is why we should have just moved Brown at the deadline to avoid all of this.

[DreamTeam09]

Remember when you’re proposing trades, what’s in it for the other team? We have to opt into Bruce brown’s last year so if we trade him to another team we have to take similar salary back to make it work. There’s little incentive for a team to trading an expiring and a first round pick for an expiring contract unless the guy is a big time player. So if we want a better pick we’re taking back longer salaries and more salary if there’s a team willing to trade a first for an expiring contract.

If teams are looking for immediate relief, we cut Brown and just take on salary to provide them immediate salary relief. This makes sense but the front office might want to rehabilitate Brown or believe he plays a major part on next season’s team.

what's in it for the other team is freeing up space on their future books, we would be looking at a player with 2 or 3 yrs left on their deal, the other team would be looking to avoid future repeater taxes or just clearing up future books

Yeah that’s a fair approach but how many teams have large 2-3 year contracts that they want to get off their books that also have a first to trade. Also who’s to say our front office will want to take on 40 to 60 million of contracts. Here’s a trade along the lines of what you’re thinking:

The Golden State Warriors have acquired 12-time NBA All-Star guard Chris Paul from the Washington Wizards in exchange for forward Patrick Baldwin Jr., guard Jordan Poole, guard Ryan Rollins, a 2027 second round draft pick and a 2030 first round draft pick (top 20 protected), it was announced today.

We’re talking a really bad salary for the trade to make sense for another team to drop a first. I’d do it but not sure if our front office wants to take on long term salary with Quickley’s and Barnes’ upcoming extensions.

This is the type of trade that makes sense to me, but for that we have to waive Brown and open up capspace. Instant cap relief for a team salary dumping contracts.

For the Nets to take on the two years and $30 million left on Carroll's contract, the Raptors will attach a 2018 lottery-protected first-round and second-round pick to the deal, league sources said.

I do the trade in either scenario but you have to really think of the incentive for the team trading with the Raptors. This is why we should have just moved Brown at the deadline to avoid all of this.

we can afford a 2-3yr deal at around 23-25mill without going into the tax. 3yrs is when RJ + Jakob contract will be up so i'm assuming that's the next time we will wanna be a cap-space team. By then we'll have Barnes + Quickly on their fun rookie maxes & a few expiring's.
Wiggins or Hunter with an accompanying pick makes sense