Is there any potentially available aged star that would catapult the Raps to Finals contention?

[YogurtProducer]

Yes and that team was built through years of losing/development plus smart pick-ups in the 2nd round/UDFA until it was time for trades to make a final push.

But it's not an anomaly and it doesn't have to be a one-to-one. Look at the contenders now. The Celtics, Twolves, Thunder, Pacers have good/decent depth and even the Knicks have been able to survive after having a star in Randle and two rotation level guys in OG/Robinson be out with injury. The Cavs/Mavs are more top-heavy but they haven't done too bad roster-building as well.

Of course it helps that they have top-tier stars and that's where we lack too as Scottie isn't on that level yet and may never get there. RJ has proven that he can be a playoff performer but that's not nearly enough firepower, not to mention that Olynyk/Ochai/Gradey isn't exactly scaring anyone. And that's my point. We've seen this in the past two/three years, where we had good players and no bench to carry things once they hit the bench.

We're a far ways away from competing anytime soon no matter what aging star you add. Ideally we add a young player with potential on-par with Scottie's and play the long-road of growth for this team.

It is 100% an anomaly.

If the Knicks lose Brunson and Donte are they winning 50 games next year like we did in 2020? Celtics lose Tatum and White? TWolves lose Ant and McDaniels?

I think we are vastly underrating the power of a star here though. We would not be a Celtics, but IMO if we just plunked a star here in TO there is no reason why we would not expect to be a NYK / CLE level of a team.

I'm just not as high on this team as you are and that's fine. We're a long ways away from being on the Cavs or Knicks level. Those teams have more effective/proven stars, more depth and are much-better coached. We've already seen all this play out over the past 2/3 years. Literally had Siakam/OG/Fred/Scottie/Yak as a core plus Nurse as a coach and it amounted to nothing.

What have the Cavs or Knicks accomplished though? Sure the NYK is prob going to conference finals but so did the Trae Hawks and we saw how thats played out (ECF run due to an easy run).

We are a long way away - but adding a legit star is the fastest and easiest way to expediate that process. That prior team did not have a talent problem - it was definitely a fit problem. Slide PG13 next to Barnes and the Barnes/PG fit is pretty damn incredible compared to Barnes/Siakam.

I think we are just undervaluing what having a guy who can be a #1 scorer would be. That is something we really have not had since Kawhi and occasionally Siakam (but inconsistently). Suddenly if Barnes slides down to a #2, IQ to #3, RJ to a bench player, etc. and guys play their right roles everyone looks better when asked to do less.

Again, not really a contender but neither is NYK or CLE.

[Merit]

Building through the draft works. That’s my approach. We’re not at the point where we should be filling holes. We need high end talent and so far that’s only Scottie. I say give our 4 young guys a lot of freedom next year. It should once again be about developing their games. Get a top 6-8 pick in a much better draft next year and go from there. If a couple of our players jump in production then the team will automatically be worth adding to in order to get into the playoffs or play in.


Ideally we should have traded Siakam and OG when we had more leverage (a year earlier), same with Fred. Not acquired Poeltl for the price that we did.

If we had chosen to tank earlier that would’ve made sense, but at the time we were trying to win. What set us back the most was losing Fred for nothing.

The limitations of Fred and Siakam have been evident for awhile now. Trying to win was delusion and slowed down our rebuild. Had we began tanking starting from the Chet year or at least the Jabari Smith/Banchero year, we would be in great position right now, or at least a better position.

The limitations of Fred and Pascal are still better than any player we have on the team right now, plus we would've had OG and Scottie and Gradey still. Hindsight is also 20/20. The alternate path where Fred comes back, we get a backup PG, and, for the most part, become a complete team would've meant we would've given up a mid-round pick in a below-average draft and would be competing.

It's about playing probabilities, not delusion. The probability of Fred getting a godfather contract was low. Nonetheless, it happened, and it resulted in a strong pivot after we realized that we actually needed someone like Fred to keep defences honest since we didn't have enough shooting other than OG and Gary.

If anything the delusion would've been to tank with a team that had Fred, OG, Scottie, Pascal and Poeltl as its starting 5. Sucks that we only saw it for a smidge at the end of the season.

[Merit]

It is 100% an anomaly.

If the Knicks lose Brunson and Donte are they winning 50 games next year like we did in 2020? Celtics lose Tatum and White? TWolves lose Ant and McDaniels?

I think we are vastly underrating the power of a star here though. We would not be a Celtics, but IMO if we just plunked a star here in TO there is no reason why we would not expect to be a NYK / CLE level of a team.

I'm just not as high on this team as you are and that's fine. We're a long ways away from being on the Cavs or Knicks level. Those teams have more effective/proven stars, more depth and are much-better coached. We've already seen all this play out over the past 2/3 years. Literally had Siakam/OG/Fred/Scottie/Yak as a core plus Nurse as a coach and it amounted to nothing.

What have the Cavs or Knicks accomplished though? Sure the NYK is prob going to conference finals but so did the Trae Hawks and we saw how thats played out (ECF run due to an easy run).

We are a long way away - but adding a legit star is the fastest and easiest way to expediate that process. That prior team did not have a talent problem - it was definitely a fit problem. Slide PG13 next to Barnes and the Barnes/PG fit is pretty damn incredible compared to Barnes/Siakam.

I think we are just undervaluing what having a guy who can be a #1 scorer would be. That is something we really have not had since Kawhi and occasionally Siakam (but inconsistently). Suddenly if Barnes slides down to a #2, IQ to #3, RJ to a bench player, etc. and guys play their right roles everyone looks better when asked to do less.

Again, not really a contender but neither is NYK or CLE.

We'd be light-years ahead if we plunked a star here without losing our core of Scottie/IQ/RJ/Gradey/Poeltl and future picks. The question is what we'd have to give up to get a star here.

What "star" is a possible get with the 21/31/Brown/Boucher/McDaniels combo? IMO, that's the better question.

[Vampirate]

If we had chosen to tank earlier that would’ve made sense, but at the time we were trying to win. What set us back the most was losing Fred for nothing.

The limitations of Fred and Siakam have been evident for awhile now. Trying to win was delusion and slowed down our rebuild. Had we began tanking starting from the Chet year or at least the Jabari Smith/Banchero year, we would be in great position right now, or at least a better position.

The limitations of Fred and Pascal are still better than any player we have on the team right now, plus we would've had OG and Scottie and Gradey still. Hindsight is also 20/20. The alternate path where Fred comes back, we get a backup PG, and, for the most part, become a complete team would've meant we would've given up a mid-round pick in a below-average draft and would be competing.

It's about playing probabilities, not delusion. The probability of Fred getting a godfather contract was low. Nonetheless, it happened, and it resulted in a strong pivot after we realized that we actually needed someone like Fred to keep defences honest since we didn't have enough shooting other than OG and Gary.

If anything the delusion would've been to tank with a team that had Fred, OG, Scottie, Pascal and Poeltl as its starting 5. Sucks that we only saw it for a smidge at the end of the season.

Siakam is better than everyone pretty much yes.

I'm easily taking IQ over FVV moving forwards.

Regardless, had we stuck with the old guard we'd have a very low ceiling in terms of record and the playoffs.

The simple fact is in order for us to make sticking with that core worth it, as Siakam's age, Siakam himself would have to be much better than he is.


The delusion was trading for Poetl in the first place and just putting a bandage on a ship with multiple holes.

[Vampirate]

It is 100% an anomaly.

If the Knicks lose Brunson and Donte are they winning 50 games next year like we did in 2020? Celtics lose Tatum and White? TWolves lose Ant and McDaniels?

I think we are vastly underrating the power of a star here though. We would not be a Celtics, but IMO if we just plunked a star here in TO there is no reason why we would not expect to be a NYK / CLE level of a team.

I'm just not as high on this team as you are and that's fine. We're a long ways away from being on the Cavs or Knicks level. Those teams have more effective/proven stars, more depth and are much-better coached. We've already seen all this play out over the past 2/3 years. Literally had Siakam/OG/Fred/Scottie/Yak as a core plus Nurse as a coach and it amounted to nothing.

What have the Cavs or Knicks accomplished though? Sure the NYK is prob going to conference finals but so did the Trae Hawks and we saw how thats played out (ECF run due to an easy run).

We are a long way away - but adding a legit star is the fastest and easiest way to expediate that process. That prior team did not have a talent problem - it was definitely a fit problem. Slide PG13 next to Barnes and the Barnes/PG fit is pretty damn incredible compared to Barnes/Siakam.

I think we are just undervaluing what having a guy who can be a #1 scorer would be. That is something we really have not had since Kawhi and occasionally Siakam (but inconsistently). Suddenly if Barnes slides down to a #2, IQ to #3, RJ to a bench player, etc. and guys play their right roles everyone looks better when asked to do less.

Again, not really a contender but neither is NYK or CLE.

It was both.

We both needed a player better than Siakam and a player that fit the roster better.

As for the 2nd bolded, if I 'knew' ahead of this draft that we had even a high chance of drafting that #1 player that you are talking about, then yes i'd be more optimistic. We all would.

However actually getting that #1 type of option is really the hardest thing to do in the NBA as an org unless you are the Lakers.

The pessimism is simply that the odds are very very stacked against us in getting that player. This is magnified by that Poetl trade.


As for NYK and Cle, they are 2 completely different situations.

[Merit]

The limitations of Fred and Siakam have been evident for awhile now. Trying to win was delusion and slowed down our rebuild. Had we began tanking starting from the Chet year or at least the Jabari Smith/Banchero year, we would be in great position right now, or at least a better position.

The limitations of Fred and Pascal are still better than any player we have on the team right now, plus we would've had OG and Scottie and Gradey still. Hindsight is also 20/20. The alternate path where Fred comes back, we get a backup PG, and, for the most part, become a complete team would've meant we would've given up a mid-round pick in a below-average draft and would be competing.

It's about playing probabilities, not delusion. The probability of Fred getting a godfather contract was low. Nonetheless, it happened, and it resulted in a strong pivot after we realized that we actually needed someone like Fred to keep defences honest since we didn't have enough shooting other than OG and Gary.

If anything the delusion would've been to tank with a team that had Fred, OG, Scottie, Pascal and Poeltl as its starting 5. Sucks that we only saw it for a smidge at the end of the season.

Siakam is better than everyone pretty much yes.

I'm easily taking IQ over FVV moving forwards.

Regardless, had we stuck with the old guard we'd have a very low ceiling in terms of record and the playoffs.

The simple fact is in order for us to make sticking with that core worth it, as Siakam's age, Siakam himself would have to be much better than he is.


The delusion was trading for Poetl in the first place and just putting a bandage on a ship with multiple holes.

The thing is that was a major hole. I feel that the FO got swayed by Fred and Nick Nurse who both wanted to win. If anything, the time to tank would’ve been in the Wemby draft because we were trash without a center. They could easily have tanked that year.