Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[Spates]

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

He is top 5 without debate lol

Only VC, Bosh, Siakam, Demar, and Lowry have been named to an all star game more than once.

That same list, sans Bosh, have been named to more than 1 all-nba team

Siakam also has a championship

5th in points, 3rd in rebounds, 5th in assists, 9th in blocks, 10th in steals, 5th in games,.

4th in VORP, 5th in win shares, 10th in Box +/- (extremely flawed - Bebe is 7th lol)

Who the hell is above Siakam? It cant be Bosh OR Demar considering they have nothing on Siakam. They have neither team nor personal success.

If he is, so what? It says more about the franchise's history than it does about Siakam's ability. Big fish, small pond? Imagine Jazz fans mourning the loss of Gordon Hayward.

[Spates]

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

1. Lay out the case for a top 5 that excludes Siakam - you can look up box stats, advanced stats, individual and team honors; all would point to him as top 5 so I fail to see how I'm presenting a subjective opinion as fact here. This is as close to an objective view as you can get in Sports outside of "the eye test". Just because someone could argue he isn't top 5 doesn't make it a valid and logical argument. I'd wager consensus would put Siakam top 5 by a wide margin. That's as good as we're going to get here.

2. So are you going to say that Siakam focusing on becoming an isolation player is solely on him, and not the fact that he played for a coach whose offensive philosophy as a HC in this league has been to feed his best players in isolation both in Toronto and in Philly? Would you argue that he didn't play for a team whose analytics department came out and said ball movement is overrated and the best teams create in isolation? (See: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-sportvu-follow-up-answering-the-most-common-questions-and-more-ghost-players/ and https://theathletic.com/266264/2018/03/08/for-the-raptors-isolation-basketball-isnt-always-a-bad-thing/ - the team reversing this view here is not talked about enough) This is the environment Siakam developed in. It's unfair to say he did x or y to the determinant of the team, ignoring that perhaps this is what was asked of him by the team.

3. Sure, his impact to date may point to the fact that it was smart to move on and that the return was fair. I won't argue that though I somewhat disagree; this is definitely up for debate and you would have very strong points. But this isn't what I was addressing in my post. In fact, I have called out the hypocrisy of those who say that Siakam is an overrated player and easily replaceable while at the same time shouting from the roof top how limited the return was and how Indiana robbed us blind. It's one or the other. Your view of the situation is consistent and logical, I have no problem with it.

1. I don't want to. Listing advanced stats is just as lazy as relying on counting stats. A worthwhile breakdown of his game requires time and video breakdown to convey my perspective.

2. Sure. He also said he wants to be a top 5 player. The team didn't ask for him to stop playing defense and to lose his 3pt shot. The truth cuts both ways. Let's not discount his ambition.

3. Thank you

[DatHomieYouHaTe]

He's not that guy.. If the Pacers sign him to a max they will regret it.. Their problem not ours

[ForeverTFC]

He's not that guy.. If the Pacers sign him to a max they will regret it.. Their problem not ours

They have no choice. Philly might get their way with George or Butler but Detroit is desperate.

[JB7]

He's not that guy.. If the Pacers sign him to a max they will regret it.. Their problem not ours

They have no choice. Philly might get their way with George or Butler but Detroit is desperate.

This is the reason Pascal's return was so low. Teams trading for him knew they would be stuck giving him the max, so they were not offering any assets. And Raps chose the little return over maxing Pascal.

[YogurtProducer]

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

He is top 5 without debate lol

Only VC, Bosh, Siakam, Demar, and Lowry have been named to an all star game more than once.

That same list, sans Bosh, have been named to more than 1 all-nba team

Siakam also has a championship

5th in points, 3rd in rebounds, 5th in assists, 9th in blocks, 10th in steals, 5th in games,.

4th in VORP, 5th in win shares, 10th in Box +/- (extremely flawed - Bebe is 7th lol)

Who the hell is above Siakam? It cant be Bosh OR Demar considering they have nothing on Siakam. They have neither team nor personal success.

If he is, so what? It says more about the franchise's history than it does about Siakam's ability. Big fish, small pond? Imagine Jazz fans mourning the loss of Gordon Hayward.

When did Hayward win a ring or make all nba?

Cringey to try and **** on Pascal just because he wasn’t a superstar.

[HumbleRen]

Indiana is going to regret making Siakam the guy to pair along side Haliburton. Hopefully he’s still tradable on his max deal he’s gonna get for their sake.

[Dude-niagara]

I told the Siakam gang bangers that he is not worth the max and it was smart too move on.... Siakam is a choke machine and Pacers are going to get stuck paying him a max... good luck with that


LMAO TO ALL THE SIAKAM GANG BANGERS! Trading is the king of empty stats

[Dude-niagara]

Siakam a 2-time All-NBA and 2-time All-Star player, was traded by Raptors in his prime for basically nothing.
Pacers has this whole bunch of good young players (4-7) and they did not give us even a single player from that bunch. Even if any player of that bunch cannot play much for Pacers just because of the damn competition, Pacers still refused to give him to us.
They continue the same treatment in case of draft picks. They give us picks in a draft which is consider to have inferior talent and even there, they give us low picks instead of high picks.

The effect of this trade was not felt much initially, because Barnes continued his stellar play of this season. But now Barnes is injured and cannot play and most likely out for the season. And now we are seeing the full effects of the Siakam trade. That trade made us bad in present and also does not improve our future. Other teams would have traded a player of Siakam caliber to either improve their present or future. We on the other hand strike out in both cases.

This trade may even put seeds of doubt in Barnes mind. He may be thinking is this organization willing to build to compete for a championship? OR they want to build a team whose ceiling is to make playoffs? Are they counting again to get lucky and find gems in later parts of draft? Do they want to draft another superstar? Or are they counting again that a disgruntled superstar will be traded to them?

It was a great return considering Siakam was telling teams he would not resign... Siakam is not worth a full max

[will]

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

He is top 5 without debate lol

Only VC, Bosh, Siakam, Demar, and Lowry have been named to an all star game more than once.

That same list, sans Bosh, have been named to more than 1 all-nba team

Siakam also has a championship

5th in points, 3rd in rebounds, 5th in assists, 9th in blocks, 10th in steals, 5th in games,.

4th in VORP, 5th in win shares, 10th in Box +/- (extremely flawed - Bebe is 7th lol)

Who the hell is above Siakam? It cant be Bosh OR Demar considering they have nothing on Siakam. They have neither team nor personal success.

If he is, so what? It says more about the franchise's history than it does about Siakam's ability. Big fish, small pond? Imagine Jazz fans mourning the loss of Gordon Hayward.

In a nutshell.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Hali and Pascal have given the Pacers NOTHING from the line, it's gotta be a historic ineptness out of the top two scoring options. Pascal with his yips and Hali with his allergy to contact. It's not like the Knicks are running them out of the building.

[nestea]

P skills didn't look good late in that ball game last night

[Steelo Green]

Chris Bosh is quite a bit better than Siakam.

[MiamiSPX]

I'm not going to dunk on Siakam (except for the FTs) because he isn't playing any better or worse than I expected. This is the Pascal Siakam experience.

He'll win you a game or two.
He will have consecutive plays where you think "yes, you can get that anytime you want" only for him to disappear for the next 5 minutes.
Likewise, he'll have a 1-2 minute stretch of all world D, only to become disinterested in doing that for the rest of the game.
Shaky FT shooting in clutch moments.
Interactions with teammates always seem positive.
Incredbile stamina.
Can be unstoppable in spurts when he's feeling it.

Nothing has changed. Really good player who will in some games play great. Yet nothing that screams "OMG, I hope ownership already has that 250M contract drawn up!!"

Having said that, I am also not going to dunk on Indy for the trade and maxing him. Yeah, that contract is going to be horrible but what else are they going to do? They have a 24-year old 2x All Star that by all accounts has been putting a little pressure on the FO to make some moves. And here you have a 2x All-Star, 2x All NBA player that is wllling to come to your small market team AND re-sign with you. They kind of had to. Nobody of that calibre is signing in Indy as a UFA (not trashing them, we are in the exact same boat).

[JB7]

I'm not going to dunk on Siakam (except for the FTs) because he isn't playing any better or worse than I expected. This is the Pascal Siakam experience.

He'll win you a game or two.
He will have consecutive plays where you think "yes, you can get that anytime you want" only for him to disappear for the next 5 minutes.
Likewise, he'll have a 1-2 minute stretch of all world D, only to become disinterested in doing that for the rest of the game.
Shaky FT shooting in clutch moments.
Interactions with teammates always seem positive.
Incredbile stamina.
Can be unstoppable in spurts when he's feeling it.

Nothing has changed. Really good player who will in some games play great. Yet nothing that screams "OMG, I hope ownership already has that 250M contract drawn up!!"

Having said that, I am also not going to dunk on Indy for the trade and maxing him. Yeah, that contract is going to be horrible but what else are they going to do? They have a 24-year old 2x All Star that by all accounts has been putting a little pressure on the FO to make some moves. And here you have a 2x All-Star, 2x All NBA player that is wllling to come to your small market team AND re-sign with you. They kind of had to. Nobody of that calibre is signing in Indy as a UFA (not trashing them, we are in the exact same boat).

I agree with all of this, but the question is, once Pascal signs that max, is his contract untradeable, and will it cause future cap problems for the Pacers. It could be a difficult decision for the Pacers this offseason.

Because they traded so little, they could just walk away from Pascal this summer, if they felt that was a better financial decision for their team.

[MiamiSPX]

I'm not going to dunk on Siakam (except for the FTs) because he isn't playing any better or worse than I expected. This is the Pascal Siakam experience.

He'll win you a game or two.
He will have consecutive plays where you think "yes, you can get that anytime you want" only for him to disappear for the next 5 minutes.
Likewise, he'll have a 1-2 minute stretch of all world D, only to become disinterested in doing that for the rest of the game.
Shaky FT shooting in clutch moments.
Interactions with teammates always seem positive.
Incredbile stamina.
Can be unstoppable in spurts when he's feeling it.

Nothing has changed. Really good player who will in some games play great. Yet nothing that screams "OMG, I hope ownership already has that 250M contract drawn up!!"

Having said that, I am also not going to dunk on Indy for the trade and maxing him. Yeah, that contract is going to be horrible but what else are they going to do? They have a 24-year old 2x All Star that by all accounts has been putting a little pressure on the FO to make some moves. And here you have a 2x All-Star, 2x All NBA player that is wllling to come to your small market team AND re-sign with you. They kind of had to. Nobody of that calibre is signing in Indy as a UFA (not trashing them, we are in the exact same boat).

I agree with all of this, but the question is, once Pascal signs that max, is his contract untradeable, and will it cause future cap problems for the Pacers. It could be a difficult decision for the Pacers this offseason.

Because they traded so little, they could just walk away from Pascal this summer, if they felt that was a better financial decision for their team.

Yeah I think it becomes untradable. I think the theory that he would have been more tradable being locked into a contract is wrong. It's becoming a young man's league and nobody is going to want a 31 or 32 year old Siakam at 50M per, IMO.

[will]

I'm not going to dunk on Siakam (except for the FTs) because he isn't playing any better or worse than I expected. This is the Pascal Siakam experience.

He'll win you a game or two.
He will have consecutive plays where you think "yes, you can get that anytime you want" only for him to disappear for the next 5 minutes.
Likewise, he'll have a 1-2 minute stretch of all world D, only to become disinterested in doing that for the rest of the game.
Shaky FT shooting in clutch moments.
Interactions with teammates always seem positive.
Incredbile stamina.
Can be unstoppable in spurts when he's feeling it.

Nothing has changed. Really good player who will in some games play great. Yet nothing that screams "OMG, I hope ownership already has that 250M contract drawn up!!"

Having said that, I am also not going to dunk on Indy for the trade and maxing him. Yeah, that contract is going to be horrible but what else are they going to do? They have a 24-year old 2x All Star that by all accounts has been putting a little pressure on the FO to make some moves. And here you have a 2x All-Star, 2x All NBA player that is wllling to come to your small market team AND re-sign with you. They kind of had to. Nobody of that calibre is signing in Indy as a UFA (not trashing them, we are in the exact same boat).

I agree with all of this, but the question is, once Pascal signs that max, is his contract untradeable, and will it cause future cap problems for the Pacers. It could be a difficult decision for the Pacers this offseason.

Because they traded so little, they could just walk away from Pascal this summer, if they felt that was a better financial decision for their team.

Yeah I think it becomes untradable. I think the theory that he would have been more tradable being locked into a contract is wrong. It's becoming a young man's league and nobody is going to want a 31 or 32 year old Siakam at 50M per, IMO.

The thought of a 34 year old Pascal going into the final year of his max deal with the Raptors. Yikes.

Thank goodness that's not reality.

[will]

Chris Bosh is quite a bit better than Siakam.

Seems like some put more stock into him because he won a chip with the Raps and Bosh didn't.

[WaltFrazier]

Spoiler:

I'm not going to dunk on Siakam (except for the FTs) because he isn't playing any better or worse than I expected. This is the Pascal Siakam experience.

He'll win you a game or two.
He will have consecutive plays where you think "yes, you can get that anytime you want" only for him to disappear for the next 5 minutes.
Likewise, he'll have a 1-2 minute stretch of all world D, only to become disinterested in doing that for the rest of the game.
Shaky FT shooting in clutch moments.
Interactions with teammates always seem positive.
Incredbile stamina.
Can be unstoppable in spurts when he's feeling it.

Nothing has changed. Really good player who will in some games play great. Yet nothing that screams "OMG, I hope ownership already has that 250M contract drawn up!!"

Having said that, I am also not going to dunk on Indy for the trade and maxing him. Yeah, that contract is going to be horrible but what else are they going to do? They have a 24-year old 2x All Star that by all accounts has been putting a little pressure on the FO to make some moves. And here you have a 2x All-Star, 2x All NBA player that is wllling to come to your small market team AND re-sign with you. They kind of had to. Nobody of that calibre is signing in Indy as a UFA (not trashing them, we are in the exact same boat).

This. Why shouldn't they do what they can to get better? Every team can't wait around for a Masai/Kawhi type acquisition. Every team can't look at Boston and say well we better tank a few years and time it to be great when Boston fades. Make your team as strong as can be and compete, is the way to go.

[Duffman100]

Chris Bosh is quite a bit better than Siakam.

Is he? They look very similar side by side when you compare them in terms of impact.