Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[2019nbachamps]

Put Bosh in place of Siakam for that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

Put Siakam in place of Siakam in that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

All we needed to get past the Celtics that series was Norm Powell to box out off a missed free throw.

There's a lot of revisionist history re Bosh here. He wasn't a stretch 5 until he had to be. If Bosh was still playing with Toronto he would have demanded first option touches and stayed explicitly in the midrange, like LaMarcus Aldridge did, for his whole career. He didn't even want to defer to LeBron and Wade when he first got in Miami. Siakam adapted his style of play in a contract year for a team that didn't even want him.

Bosh took a paycut and relegated himself to a 2nd/3rd option the rest of his career. I really don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Again, it’s bananas we’re even having this argument. One guy was an 11x all star. The other is a 2x all star with maybe 3 prime years left in his career. This is a pretty open and shut discussion.

Btw, I don’t even like Bosh but there’s no question he was an exceptional player. He ranks top 30 all time in all star appearances.

[Duffman100]

Put Siakam in place of Siakam in that Celtics series and we’re going to the finals.

All we needed to get past the Celtics that series was Norm Powell to box out off a missed free throw.

There's a lot of revisionist history re Bosh here. He wasn't a stretch 5 until he had to be. If Bosh was still playing with Toronto he would have demanded first option touches and stayed explicitly in the midrange, like LaMarcus Aldridge did, for his whole career. He didn't even want to defer to LeBron and Wade when he first got in Miami. Siakam adapted his style of play in a contract year for a team that didn't even want him.

Bosh took a paycut and relegated himself to a 2nd/3rd option the rest of his career. I really don’t understand what you’re talking about.

Again, it’s bananas we’re even having this argument. One guy was an 11x all star. The other is a 2x all star with maybe 3 prime years left in his career. This is a pretty open and shut discussion.

Btw, I don’t even like Bosh but there’s no question he was an exceptional player. He ranks top 30 all time in all star appearances.

There are also two different conversations. Total career vs peak

[PushDaRock]

He got a lot of hate because he bad mouthed the city on the way out.

I don't know that whining about customs and cable tv packages is really bad mouthing the city.

He literally said the city smelled

Anyway, I don't think people blame Bosh for wanting to leave. The Raptors blew the VC trade and two high lotto picks while he was here. It was almost impossible to recover from that. Since this thread is about the Siakam trade, there are some similarities in how the franchise is making things difficult for themselves early on.

Well that it smelled different, not bad lol

But I guess at that point in time, we had never won anything or had much success and it was easier to take everything as a slight. Present day though, we have a Championship and been one of the winningest franchises in the past decade.

[Raptolicism]

I freaking hate Bosh, and love Pascal.*

My recollection of watching Bosh is that he had more of an offensive impact on the court than P, but was a weaker defender. In my view Bosh was the stronger player overall.

Most importantly, Pascal's hot sauce was better than Bosh's cursed First Ink DVD, and that's saying a lot bc that shyt was terrible. Like, man, the taste and texture just awful lol. But OMFG, I felt like such a loser while watching that First Ink nightmare.

[Scase]

I didn't say the TS was the same.

And siakam averaged twice as many assists. Outside of the edge on TS, and Siakam averaging double the assists, their impact was nearly the same.

Siakam had better starters and zero bench or shooting surrounding him.

Both played 3rd fiddle on title teams

There are argument for both players and I already said Bosh got the slight edge. Both to say Bosh is "quite a bit better" than Siakam really isn't backed up by that much other than our fanbases recency bias to hate anything to do with that last era of Raptors basketball.

Also you just said in the Ochai thread that despite Ochai being the 14th pick, he's a lost cause. So I suppose he's the 1%? It's almost like you forget people read your comments on more than one thread.

You literally said "not a massive difference". 5% above league average, vs league average, is a MASSIVE difference. Again, don't quote stats if you don't understand their impact.

It's not an "edge", it is a massive gulf. Unlike the assists which is barely an edge, a higher APG and PPG league wide results in inflated stats.

Saying Siakam ha better starters and no bench, is a funny way of saying he flat out had a better team, you know, without being able to admit it. Every single starter on that team, would have been the second best player on Bosh's team. Siakam had the superior player at every position (aside from his ironically) and only managed 8 more wins.

Bosh played 3rd fiddle.....to Lebron **** James, and arguably the second greatest SG in NBA history. This is the most dishonest argument I've seen you make yet, bravo.

Also congrats on reading other comments, almost like it's your responsibility or something. But hey, bring up things that are completely and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand because you are incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were. More deflections here than OG.

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

[Duffman100]

You literally said "not a massive difference". 5% above league average, vs league average, is a MASSIVE difference. Again, don't quote stats if you don't understand their impact.

It's not an "edge", it is a massive gulf. Unlike the assists which is barely an edge, a higher APG and PPG league wide results in inflated stats.

Saying Siakam ha better starters and no bench, is a funny way of saying he flat out had a better team, you know, without being able to admit it. Every single starter on that team, would have been the second best player on Bosh's team. Siakam had the superior player at every position (aside from his ironically) and only managed 8 more wins.

Bosh played 3rd fiddle.....to Lebron **** James, and arguably the second greatest SG in NBA history. This is the most dishonest argument I've seen you make yet, bravo.

Also congrats on reading other comments, almost like it's your responsibility or something. But hey, bring up things that are completely and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand because you are incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were. More deflections here than OG.

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

"Literally every poster". While I've had multiple posters agree with me.

You just have to make every disagreement some massive personal issue. It's truly incredible. You just can't debate without making it weird.

[Scase]

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

"Literally every poster". While I've had multiple posters agree with me.

You just have to make every disagreement some massive personal issue. It's truly incredible. You just can't debate without making it weird.

Only one making or taking anything personally here is you.

And you seem to be unaware of the purpose of using "quotation" marks. You know, it's supposed to be to quote someone, as in quoting something they said verbatim. Not just make **** up and throw it in quotes.

Allow me to help.

virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

Note, not "literally every poster".

incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were

Note, also not "literally every poster".

Seems pretty personal to be intentionally fabricating quotes to use as an argument to prove your side.

[Duffman100]

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

"Literally every poster". While I've had multiple posters agree with me.

You just have to make every disagreement some massive personal issue. It's truly incredible. You just can't debate without making it weird.

Only one making or taking anything personally here is you.

And you seem to be unaware of the purpose of using "quotation" marks. You know, it's supposed to be to quote someone, as in quoting something they said verbatim. Not just make **** up and throw it in quotes.

Allow me to help.

virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

Note, not "literally every poster".

incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were

Note, also not "literally every poster".

Seems pretty personal to be intentionally fabricating quotes to use as an argument to prove your side.

But virtually is still wrong as a fair number of other posters agree with me. And an entire thread clearly is then wrong. But then it'll become some complaints about semantics I'm sure.

[HumbleRen]

I don’t think anyone outside of raptors fans would take Siakam over Bosh.

[Vampirate]

I don’t think anyone outside of raptors fans would take Siakam over Bosh.

Comparing Bosh vs Siakam is basically comparing one Complimentary Star to another.

Neither player were franchise Stars.

We've had only 2 players who've had that type of impact (3 if you count Lowry as one)

Vince Carter and Kawhi Leonard.

It's up to debate if Barnes gets to that level.

[Scase]

"Literally every poster". While I've had multiple posters agree with me.

You just have to make every disagreement some massive personal issue. It's truly incredible. You just can't debate without making it weird.

Only one making or taking anything personally here is you.

And you seem to be unaware of the purpose of using "quotation" marks. You know, it's supposed to be to quote someone, as in quoting something they said verbatim. Not just make **** up and throw it in quotes.

Allow me to help.

virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

Note, not "literally every poster".

incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were

Note, also not "literally every poster".

Seems pretty personal to be intentionally fabricating quotes to use as an argument to prove your side.

But virtually is still wrong as a fair number of other posters agree with me. And an entire thread clearly is then wrong. But then it'll become some complaints about semantics I'm sure.

That sure is a weird way of admitting you were wrong. But yeah man, try and deflect and say it's gonna be me complaining about semantics, when it's about you being 100% wrong and unable to admit it. Keep on digging.

[agkagk]

Bosh vs pascal

Bosh couldnt close for sheet

Otherwise its close.

I think pascal has the deeper toolbag and more of a dogs mentality.

Yep, pascals better and more impractful

[ForeverTFC]

You literally said "not a massive difference". 5% above league average, vs league average, is a MASSIVE difference. Again, don't quote stats if you don't understand their impact.

It's not an "edge", it is a massive gulf. Unlike the assists which is barely an edge, a higher APG and PPG league wide results in inflated stats.

Saying Siakam ha better starters and no bench, is a funny way of saying he flat out had a better team, you know, without being able to admit it. Every single starter on that team, would have been the second best player on Bosh's team. Siakam had the superior player at every position (aside from his ironically) and only managed 8 more wins.

Bosh played 3rd fiddle.....to Lebron **** James, and arguably the second greatest SG in NBA history. This is the most dishonest argument I've seen you make yet, bravo.

Also congrats on reading other comments, almost like it's your responsibility or something. But hey, bring up things that are completely and utterly unrelated to the topic at hand because you are incapable of admitting you were wrong when you have an entire thread of people telling you how wrong you were. More deflections here than OG.

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

I would. 100 times out of 100.

I don’t know if you’re romanticizing Bosh or if it’s your dislike of Siakam that’s making you argue this so hard. Bosh was the biggest 2-faced “star” to ever play in this city. The guy was the definition of empty stats and led us no where. He was desperate for attention. I don’t understand how Toronto fans still hold a grudge against Vince but take time to defend Bosh. “Rep T Dot till they bury me.” Yeah ok bud.

Duck that guy.

[HumbleRen]

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

I would. 100 times out of 100.

I don’t know if you’re romanticizing Bosh or if it’s your dislike of Siakam that’s making you argue this so hard. Bosh was the biggest 2-faced “star” to ever play in this city. The guy was the definition of empty stats and led us no where. He was desperate for attention. I don’t understand how Toronto fans still hold a grudge against Vince but take time to defend Bosh. “Rep T Dot till they bury me.” Yeah ok bud.

Duck that guy.

Nobody is defending Bosh like that, he was a ****, we acknowledge that but people keep leaving out context.

Our FO was terrible and we surrounded him with objectively mediocre talent. Look at how fast OG wanted to bolt and we only had 2 underperforming years with him after him being in a great environment for several + years. So yes, I can understand Bosh wanting to bolt after 7 years with no hope of the situation getting better.

Atleast Bosh can use that as an excuse as to why he didn’t deliver as a first option. We surrounded Siakam with one of the best Raptors roster of all time and all he gave us as a complete melt down performance against with hindsight a very mediocre young Boston Celtics team.

Bosh’s best 2nd scoring option was freaking Mike James throughout his 7 years with us lol.

Siakam got to play with HOFer’s, amazing depth, multiple all stars, played for COTY caliber coaches, a ROTY .. so yeah, people tend to give Bosh more leeway.

[Duffman100]

3 assists is a big difference.

If he played 3rd fiddle to Wade and Lebron, he had more help. Rather than Lowry and Kawhi.

Its of course relevant as you again use one argument in one thread and the opposite argument in another thread. Seemingly unaware that people are reading your posts.

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

I would. 100 times out of 100.

I don’t know if you’re romanticizing Bosh or if it’s your dislike of Siakam that’s making you argue this so hard. Bosh was the biggest 2-faced “star” to ever play in this city. The guy was the definition of empty stats and led us no where. He was desperate for attention. I don’t understand how Toronto fans still hold a grudge against Vince but take time to defend Bosh. “Rep T Dot till they bury me.” Yeah ok bud.

Duck that guy.

He might have been a bit two faced but I still loved him as a player. Dude put some meh talent in his back.

[MoneyBall]

Bosh's mid range was money. When things got tough and we needed a bucket, Siakam often just could hit that mid range like Bosh could.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Yes it's relevant, with zero context provided. Brilliant logic. And yeah, 3 apg is a big difference, if you completely ignore my previous comments about the PPG being much higher and more APG across the league in Siakams era. You know what else is big? 3 more RPG in an era with less FGA. Weird ignoring that though right? No one in their right mind would ever take Siakam over Bosh, and the difference while isn't mvp calibre vs role player, it is definitely big enough to justify Bosh as being clearly a better player.

But keep pretending that it's recency bias, again, as virtually everyone in the thread tells you that you're wrong.

I would. 100 times out of 100.

I don’t know if you’re romanticizing Bosh or if it’s your dislike of Siakam that’s making you argue this so hard. Bosh was the biggest 2-faced “star” to ever play in this city. The guy was the definition of empty stats and led us no where. He was desperate for attention. I don’t understand how Toronto fans still hold a grudge against Vince but take time to defend Bosh. “Rep T Dot till they bury me.” Yeah ok bud.

Duck that guy.

Nobody is defending Bosh like that, he was a ****, we acknowledge that but people keep leaving out context.

Our FO was terrible and we surrounded him with objectively mediocre talent. Look at how fast OG wanted to bolt and we only had 2 underperforming years with him after him being in a great environment for several + years. So yes, I can understand Bosh wanting to bolt after 7 years with no hope of the situation getting better.

Atleast Bosh can use that as an excuse as to why he didn’t deliver as a first option. We surrounded Siakam with one of the best Raptors roster of all time and all he gave us as a complete melt down performance against with hindsight a very mediocre young Boston Celtics team.

Bosh’s best 2nd scoring option was freaking Mike James throughout his 7 years with us lol.

Siakam got to play with HOFer’s, amazing depth, multiple all stars, played for COTY caliber coaches, a ROTY .. so yeah, people tend to give Bosh more leeway.

But Siakam did deliver a better team as a first option than Bosh ever had, by some magnitude, and they did make it to the second round, which Bosh never did here.

Siakam played with two over-the-hill Hall of Famers. He wasn't playing with prime hall of famers. Gasol was MIA in the Boston series, too. Bosh literally played for a COTY coach and got bested by Mikki Moore in the first round. Bosh literally played with a ROTY runner up (who also slumped in his second season with work ethic/motor issues). I would re-visit the context you think your providing here.

[2019nbachamps]

11 all stars vs 2. Let’s move on folks.

[HumbleRen]

I would. 100 times out of 100.

I don’t know if you’re romanticizing Bosh or if it’s your dislike of Siakam that’s making you argue this so hard. Bosh was the biggest 2-faced “star” to ever play in this city. The guy was the definition of empty stats and led us no where. He was desperate for attention. I don’t understand how Toronto fans still hold a grudge against Vince but take time to defend Bosh. “Rep T Dot till they bury me.” Yeah ok bud.

Duck that guy.

Nobody is defending Bosh like that, he was a ****, we acknowledge that but people keep leaving out context.

Our FO was terrible and we surrounded him with objectively mediocre talent. Look at how fast OG wanted to bolt and we only had 2 underperforming years with him after him being in a great environment for several + years. So yes, I can understand Bosh wanting to bolt after 7 years with no hope of the situation getting better.

Atleast Bosh can use that as an excuse as to why he didn’t deliver as a first option. We surrounded Siakam with one of the best Raptors roster of all time and all he gave us as a complete melt down performance against with hindsight a very mediocre young Boston Celtics team.

Bosh’s best 2nd scoring option was freaking Mike James throughout his 7 years with us lol.

Siakam got to play with HOFer’s, amazing depth, multiple all stars, played for COTY caliber coaches, a ROTY .. so yeah, people tend to give Bosh more leeway.

But Siakam did deliver a better team as a first option than Bosh ever had, by some magnitude, and they did make it to the second round, which Bosh never did here.

Siakam played with two over-the-hill Hall of Famers. He wasn't playing with prime hall of famers. Gasol was MIA in the Boston series, too. Bosh literally played for a COTY coach and got bested by Mikki Moore in the first round. Bosh literally played with a ROTY runner up (who also slumped in his second season with work ethic/motor issues). I would re-visit the context you think your providing here.

We got deep into that 2nd round in SPITE of Siakam, not because of Siakam. He was terrible. Calling that version of Lowry washed is kinda nuts considering he was by far our best player in that playoff run and arguably the teams best player in the regular season.

Bosh has never had a roster like Siakam on the Raptors, like it isn’t even close. I’m not sure how you can even debate that.

[Harry Palmer]

Recency bias playing a large role. Bush’s career average PER is higher than Pascal’s best. Similarly his career average of .159 WS/48 is higher than every Pascal season except one. Bosh was a significantly better player. Saying that they are ~ similar because neither was a Batman, while true, is a pretty empty statement in that you could say the same about dozens of guys, when obviously at that degree there are major levels of difference between non Batmans. Fred Van Vleet and Scottie Pippen were both All Stars who never lead a team to a chip, but there is significantly more difference between them than between Pippen and many Batmans.