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IDK how I feel about a logo directly being related to a player, but that dunk is so undoubtfully Raptors / NBA that part of me likes it.

Most logos are just like "ok but why?" and ours would have history to look back and explain exactly why. On the surface its a dino dunking a basketball - but anyone familiar with it knows it is more.

TheGeneral99 wrote:

LoveMyRaps wrote:I started watching this team in 2004.
Unfortunately, I missed the VC era but I doubt I would've even heard of the Raps if it wasn't for how popular they became because of VC.

Lol what?

You wouldn't heard of the Raptors?

When I was working in northern california, silicon valley way back in 2009 I was working with these fresh out of college kids (I was 29) who follow sports and when we talked about how I was from Toronto, one guygoes "only thing I know about Toronto is Vince Carter" and this was 4 years after he was traded.

Just 2 years ago and 2 years after we won the championship, I went to a amusement/games center in MIchigan and a dude saw my Raptors hat and immediately talks to me about Vince Carter LOL.

Tacoma wrote:

2019nbachamps wrote:To put things into perspective, Raps maxed out at 47 wins in the Vince era and won a grand total of one playoff series (a best of 5). He was a special talent that lacked the drive to elevate himself and those around him. I lived through every second of his era and do not understand the nostalgia. He was the super smart classmate who slacked off and got Cs and Ds. Nothing to celebrate.

To put things into more perspective...

Vince led that 47-win team & playoff series win (within 1 buzzer shot in Game 7 to make the ECF) with these playoff starters: A. Davis, C. Oakley (38 yrs old), A. Williams & C. Childs. Kawhi would not have gone further with those teammates.

Also, to be fair, that 47-win team wasn't just any 47-win team. At the start of the season after the TMac leaving debacle, Grunwald already began many of his notable terrible transactions and created a very flawed and old team. Signing an aging Mark Jackson to be the starting PG. Signing another slow and unathletic "Scoreliss" Williamson. Luckily Lenny Wilkins had the guts to play Alvin Williams more and that everyone (organization, fans, media) saw A-dub was emerging. They were 17-18 before trading away Willis for younger, more athletic Keon Clark. They were 28-26 before trading away Mark Jackson, Muggsy, , Scoreliss and getting back Childs, and JYD. The day of the trades, A-dub led the Raptors to a very hard fought triple OT lost to the Kings. The Raps then went 19-8 (.704 winning %) after that.

The next season definitely had a lot of expectations with how the playoffs ended and the re-signing of their core players plus acquiring Hakeem (again - another one of GG's flawed transactions). But just prior to VC's season ending injury, the Raptors were 29-21 but had finally found their footing and a rotation (with Hakeem coming off the bench) that had made them considered as a contender. Then after VC went down, Raps lose 13 in a row, 17 out of 18 games. That was the peak of VC as GG kept on going with his terrible transactions that made the team old and slow, and kept patching things up only to make things worst long-term. None of that was on VC.

OakleyDokely wrote:

It's crazy because prime Billups would've have been a perfect fit next to Vince. He was an incredible leader, could dictate pace well, make his teammates better, was great defensively, and was a very good deep shooter who could get his shot off in many different ways. Both Vince and T-Mac were not good leaders, and Billups would have filled that role perfectly, taking that pressure away from Vince who didn't handle that well.

I'm not sure that Vince and T-Mac could have beat the early 2000s Lakers or Spurs, but Vince, T-Mac AND Billups probably would have won at least a couple chips.

Would have loved to see this squad: Billups, Carter, T-Mac, Oakley, Davis, Curry, Alvin, Mo Pete, JYD, Keon.

Those 3 all would have hit their peaks around 2002-2005 at the same time as well.

TheGeneral99 wrote:

LoveMyRaps wrote:I started watching this team in 2004.
Unfortunately, I missed the VC era but I doubt I would've even heard of the Raps if it wasn't for how popular they became because of VC.

Lol what?

You wouldn't heard of the Raptors?

Doubt it. VC grew the sport of basketball in Toronto. He was the sole reason why basketball gained steam in the city and why a lot of kids started picking up a basketball.

LoveMyRaps wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:

LoveMyRaps wrote:I started watching this team in 2004.
Unfortunately, I missed the VC era but I doubt I would've even heard of the Raps if it wasn't for how popular they became because of VC.

Lol what?

You wouldn't heard of the Raptors?

Doubt it. VC grew the sport of basketball in Toronto. He was the sole reason why basketball gained steam in the city and why a lot of kids started picking up a basketball.

Not true at all.

He was a major part of accelerating the growth of basketball here, but he wasn't the sole cause. Basketball would have been big here regardless of Vince, it may just have taken a little bit longer.

As a fan who was a teenager in the VC era, I actually really fell in love with the game during the Nash-Phoenix Suns era. The Raptors were bad, Vince was behaving horribly and left, and I remember gravitating to a smaller Canadian underdog player who wasn't athletic that became the most exciting player in the NBA, playing unselfish basketball, epitomizing leadership and strong work-ethic, revolutionizing the game in the mid-2000s. Nash was the Curry before Curry came into the league.

When I was in high-school I remember staying up late to watch the Suns on TNT at 10:30pm on weekdays. I think people discount how much impact a guy like Nash also had on Canadian basketball fans. It was awesome seeing a guy like Nash win MVP twice and dominate the league. Then finally I remember joining the hype train again during the 2006-2007 season with Bosh, Garbo, AP, TJ, Rasho, Calderon etc. when we had a magical 2nd half of the season. So for me in the mid to late 2000s, it was always the Raptors and the Suns with Nash as my two favorite teams.

Anybody old enough to live through Vince becoming a petulant mid 20's child can never truly disregard those memories where homie was trying to be the best player on the team and the GM at the same time and the franchise just catered to him until they didn't.

People here cry sometimes about Barnes having the keys given to him way too early have no **** idea

Section_306 wrote:Anybody old enough to live through Vince becoming a petulant mid 20's child can never truly disregard those memories where homie was trying to be the best player on the team and the GM at the same time and the franchise just catered to him until they didn't.

People here cry sometimes about Barnes having the keys given to him way too early have no **** idea

Hah, I just gave up my sec. 306 tickets after 12+ years. Are you still there?

Kind of dumb, but I couldn't resist.

The Duke wrote:DD is not going to be inducted into the NBA HOF.
They coming consider Raptor retirement, but I hope not.

Lol, you're so wrong here.

Its kind of weird given the fact that he left here so unceremoniously, that his best choice of places he played, given it was for 15 more years, is still the Raptors.

Section_306 wrote:Anybody old enough to live through Vince becoming a petulant mid 20's child can never truly disregard those memories where homie was trying to be the best player on the team and the GM at the same time and the franchise just catered to him until they didn't.

People here cry sometimes about Barnes having the keys given to him way too early have no **** idea

Forgiveness isn't the same as forgetting, that's for sure. I can admit Vince is a deserving HOFer, and no longer hold a grudge (even though I quit the Raptors for 2 years over it). But like, it was probably the worst thing I've seen in sports outside of actual crimes. Lebron not trying for 3 straight weeks in Jan 2018 to get his teammates traded was up there too. The Vince saga felt worse because he was someone I actually cheered for, and all those poor kids who actually believed in him. I can't imagine.

TheGeneral99 wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:

It's crazy because prime Billups would've have been a perfect fit next to Vince. He was an incredible leader, could dictate pace well, make his teammates better, was great defensively, and was a very good deep shooter who could get his shot off in many different ways. Both Vince and T-Mac were not good leaders, and Billups would have filled that role perfectly, taking that pressure away from Vince who didn't handle that well.

I'm not sure that Vince and T-Mac could have beat the early 2000s Lakers or Spurs, but Vince, T-Mac AND Billups probably would have won at least a couple chips.

Would have loved to see this squad: Billups, Carter, T-Mac, Oakley, Davis, Curry, Alvin, Mo Pete, JYD, Keon.

Those 3 all would have hit their peaks around 2002-2005 at the same time as well.

I don't think so. That era was dominated by elite big men. You sort of needed a duncan shaq ben&sheed Wallace. AD was decent but he's too far from their level. And I remember ripping hair out watching Oakley.

tecumseh18 wrote:

Section_306 wrote:Anybody old enough to live through Vince becoming a petulant mid 20's child can never truly disregard those memories where homie was trying to be the best player on the team and the GM at the same time and the franchise just catered to him until they didn't.

People here cry sometimes about Barnes having the keys given to him way too early have no **** idea

Hah, I just gave up my sec. 306 tickets after 12+ years. Are you still there?

held out as long as possible - now long gone like my once beautiful hairline

Meh... everyone has their own views on how they saw Vince's exit. I was 24-25 years old when it happened so the peak of my Raptors fandom, but maybe not as mature and smart as I am now in my 40s. I held no grudges towards Vince. The previous season ended so badly with KO telling the media in his exit interview that there was 0 basketball knowledge in the front office (GG was already fired then). I had already knew KO was a bad hire after reading that Casey was GG's first choice but they hired KO because Peddie wanted him. The front office meddling from Peddie was well documented then - it was very distasteful. Was Vince wrong in his behavior too? Yes, he was young and his mom was really annoying. I didn't think Babcock was a good hire at all. It was Peddie once again (like he did with KO) hiring someone that so-called "experts" say was ready without doing his own due diligence. Though, the only thing I'll credit him for is bringing on Wayne Embry which I believe was Babcock's recommendation.

Anyways, that whole offseason and beginning of the season was a gong show, starting with making the decision to draft Hoffa because he had a "hockey mentality" that fits with the Toronto fans (like wtf?). We could have drafted Igoudala there as it didn't matter if he played the same position as Vince, even back then, it was ok to have 2 "wings". And the Thomson interview, the full context of Vince's quote "in years past?..No" I already saw how the media was spinning it (the interview was in the same season he was traded) and Vince was talking about how he never needed to try that hard because of how talented he was, but he paid for it with the injuries..he wasn't talking about dogging it that season. Yes, he had terrible numbers, but Smitch had his weird way of coaching style that he didn't even play Vince much in many games. The "its a flare!" play calling to the other team...meh..immaturity..they scored anyways whatever. Now don't get me wrong, I did boo him like crazy when he came back and loved the Lets Go Raptors VC Sucks chants (especially loved it when we would make that chant years later in games where it was totally irrelevant LOL). But forgive and forget and celebrate the good times.

Johnny Bball wrote:Its kind of weird given the fact that he left here so unceremoniously, that his best choice of places he played, given it was for 15 more years, is still the Raptors.

He's disliked by Nets fans because he didn't really accomplish anything with that squad despite playing with Kidd and RJ. Kidd left the team in 2008 and Carter steadily declined every year with that team.

His stint in Orlando was a disaster.

His stint with the Suns was also bad.

He became liked in Memphis and Dallas when he became an average role player and veteran leader.

So I'm not surprised he's always tried to reignite his ties with Toronto because that was the period in his career where he was at his best and achieved the most personal success. He's really only remembered primarily for what he accomplished here...he didn't really do much anywhere else.

Vince has had a weird career...he became the poster boy and most popular player in the league at just 23 years old. By 24 years old he was in conversations with Kobe for best shooting guard. By 27 years old he had started declining. By 30 years old he was no longer an all-star caliber player. From 30 to 33 he was a high-level role player. From age 33 to 43 he essentially was an average role player for an entire decade. It's interesting that he declined very steadily but he was able to extend his career for a long time on average teams in that role player spot.

TheGeneral99 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:Its kind of weird given the fact that he left here so unceremoniously, that his best choice of places he played, given it was for 15 more years, is still the Raptors.

He's disliked by Nets fans because he didn't really accomplish anything with that squad despite playing with Kidd and RJ. Kidd left the team in 2008 and Carter steadily declined every year with that team.

His stint in Orlando was a disaster.

His stint with the Suns was also bad.

He became liked in Memphis and Dallas when he became an average role player and veteran leader.

So I'm not surprised he's always tried to reignite his ties with Toronto because that was the period in his career where he was at his best and achieved the most personal success. He's really only remembered primarily for what he accomplished here...he didn't really do much anywhere else.

Vince has had a weird career...he became the poster boy and most popular player in the league at just 23 years old. By 24 years old he was in conversations with Kobe for best shooting guard. By 27 years old he had started declining. By 30 years old he was no longer an all-star caliber player. From 30 to 33 he was a high-level role player. From age 33 to 43 he essentially was an average role player for an entire decade. It's interesting that he declined very steadily but he was able to extend his career for a long time on average teams in that role player spot.

He wasn’t a hard worker and was immature as a Raptor. I’ll never understand why Raptor fans celebrate him.

2019nbachamps wrote:

TheGeneral99 wrote:

Johnny Bball wrote:Its kind of weird given the fact that he left here so unceremoniously, that his best choice of places he played, given it was for 15 more years, is still the Raptors.

He's disliked by Nets fans because he didn't really accomplish anything with that squad despite playing with Kidd and RJ. Kidd left the team in 2008 and Carter steadily declined every year with that team.

His stint in Orlando was a disaster.

His stint with the Suns was also bad.

He became liked in Memphis and Dallas when he became an average role player and veteran leader.

So I'm not surprised he's always tried to reignite his ties with Toronto because that was the period in his career where he was at his best and achieved the most personal success. He's really only remembered primarily for what he accomplished here...he didn't really do much anywhere else.

Vince has had a weird career...he became the poster boy and most popular player in the league at just 23 years old. By 24 years old he was in conversations with Kobe for best shooting guard. By 27 years old he had started declining. By 30 years old he was no longer an all-star caliber player. From 30 to 33 he was a high-level role player. From age 33 to 43 he essentially was an average role player for an entire decade. It's interesting that he declined very steadily but he was able to extend his career for a long time on average teams in that role player spot.

He wasn’t a hard worker and was immature as a Raptor. I’ll never understand why Raptor fans celebrate him.

It's time to get over it lmao. The management team was a complete dumpster fire. The President was president of Labatt and somehow became president of the Leafs and Raptors (a tenure so terrible he was out of sports after a few years), and the GM was also quickly fired and never worked as a GM again, and indeed was nearly pushed out of basketball altogether. Who in the real world wants to work for incompetent fools? I'll never get this butthurt lol.

The Duke wrote:DD is not going to be inducted into the NBA HOF.
They coming consider Raptor retirement, but I hope not.

Demar just finished this season with 1900 points, played 79 games, lead the league in minutes and finished it stronger than he started.

Ends the season with 23500 points, 31st all time. I think it's unlikely that this is the year he for some reason drops of a cliff. His game does not rely on athleticism, he scores everything off of footwork. Let's say he gets 1700 next year, 1400 the year after, really drops the year after that and gets 900. That's 4000 more points. I don't think it's unreasonable the entire rest of his career he gets that total.

That means he ends with 27500 points. Assuming Harden and Curry stay ahead of him, that puts him at 13th all time, ahead of Moses, Hakeem and Oscar Robertson.

Are you actually going to tell me with a straight face, that Demar once he's in the top 15 point getters all time, is not getting into the HOF?