Your Realsitic Raptors Offseason

[twiggy2]

Let Gary walk. Decline Bruce browns option. Resign quick. Bring in three rookies. Evaluate

[WaltFrazier]

The new core after the past deadline got too many injuries to evaluate fairly. Masai should keep them together and give them a chance to see what they can do. If it's not working then make moves at next year's deadline. Patience is the key, and continuity.

[OAKLEY_2]

To be a contender you have to be a top 5 team in the league. We are way closer to being a bottom 3 team than we are a contender. What do you think is more likely, we win 30 games next year or 50?

Trading Poeltl doesn’t put us in treadmill territory, it’s puts us in bottom 3 in the league territory. Treadmill teams are usually hovering around the 8th seed. We are already below that level WITH Poeltl.

We won't trade Poetl so seems pointless to do hypotheticals. If anything we need a solid back-up prospect to mop up at the 5 and to let Kelly play mostly at the 4. If I was trading Poetl I would look for another version of what he brings and that is he makes others better especially new developing players. I am not going to pretend I know how to contruct a contender. Presti has constructed one twice and has yet to win it all. Masai cobbled together unlikely contention and a title by not trading Colangelo's "future of the point guard position", by getting some depth return for mostly useless Rudy Gay and trading Demar Derozan for an injury riddled and disgruntled champion in Kawhi and all on an obvious one year rental. Could any person conceive that the Rudy trade would change the direction to one of winning and that an offseason hail mary would take Lebronto challenged playoff exits over the top? Ibaka and Gasol were important finishing touches. That was not in the manual on how to build a contender.

Milwaukee drafted Giannis and that one stroke of luck led to a title. Philly did the Hinke process, eventually drafted Embiid and is still without title.

Who we draft at 19 will not change our course.

Sorry, I’m a little lost. If we trade Poeltl we need to look for another version of Poeltl? If we trade Poeltl I think that’s a sign we’re going to tank (I don’t think we are actually going to tank, at least not to start the season). Either way, I doubt we trade Poeltl because I don’t think his market is that strong so a) it doesn’t make sense to trade him if the offer is meh and b) it looks pretty bad to trade Poeltl for (likely) something much worse than the top 10 pick we may or may not give up soon to the Spurs. I would hope the front office would not let optics stop them from making moves that are in the best interest of the team long term.

As for adding a finishing piece like Gasol, that seems to be directly in the manual for how teams try to build title teams.

Gasol the one recognizeable element of building a contender once Kawhi was landed. The window of possible success was so narrow as to almost not exist.

As for Poetl the worst thing we could do is trade him for draft capital and yes that is prescriptive tanking. If we thought we had something else lined up to go with Kelly and possible draft piece I'd be looking at someone like PJ Washington for Poetl but... arguably that is a possible lateral move and against timeline doctrine. I fully expect them to try and compete next year so the only thing possible, but not probable with a Poetl move is conveying. Poetl does bring defence so look for them to prioritize that again.

If you received asset equity back like say a PJ Washimgton, a major positional need, or other and we are sucking due to injuries etc., you can shut them down. If we suck next year with Poetl he would likely be heading for the exits at some reduced value. I think currently the market is higher for him than fans of a 6th placed team would like to believe. There is that scenario, sucking, where Poetl and Brown are deadline moved next year.

That is why we will keep Brown. Asset retention. We'll have options later. I also read Gary worst case scenario could be a 27 mil cap hit over multiple years whereas Brown is a one year 23 mil hit if not deadline dealt or inconceibably walked away from.

[ConSarnit]

We won't trade Poetl so seems pointless to do hypotheticals. If anything we need a solid back-up prospect to mop up at the 5 and to let Kelly play mostly at the 4. If I was trading Poetl I would look for another version of what he brings and that is he makes others better especially new developing players. I am not going to pretend I know how to contruct a contender. Presti has constructed one twice and has yet to win it all. Masai cobbled together unlikely contention and a title by not trading Colangelo's "future of the point guard position", by getting some depth return for mostly useless Rudy Gay and trading Demar Derozan for an injury riddled and disgruntled champion in Kawhi and all on an obvious one year rental. Could any person conceive that the Rudy trade would change the direction to one of winning and that an offseason hail mary would take Lebronto challenged playoff exits over the top? Ibaka and Gasol were important finishing touches. That was not in the manual on how to build a contender.

Milwaukee drafted Giannis and that one stroke of luck led to a title. Philly did the Hinke process, eventually drafted Embiid and is still without title.

Who we draft at 19 will not change our course.

Sorry, I’m a little lost. If we trade Poeltl we need to look for another version of Poeltl? If we trade Poeltl I think that’s a sign we’re going to tank (I don’t think we are actually going to tank, at least not to start the season). Either way, I doubt we trade Poeltl because I don’t think his market is that strong so a) it doesn’t make sense to trade him if the offer is meh and b) it looks pretty bad to trade Poeltl for (likely) something much worse than the top 10 pick we may or may not give up soon to the Spurs. I would hope the front office would not let optics stop them from making moves that are in the best interest of the team long term.

As for adding a finishing piece like Gasol, that seems to be directly in the manual for how teams try to build title teams.

Gasol the one recognizeable element of building a contender once Kawhi was landed. The window of possible success was so narrow as to almost not exist.

As for Poetl the worst thing we could do is trade him for draft capital and yes that is prescriptive tanking. If we thought we had something else lined up to go with Kelly and possible draft piece I'd be looking at someone like PJ Washington for Poetl but... arguably that is a possible lateral move and against timeline doctrine. I fully expect them to try and compete next year so the only thing possible, but not probable with a Poetl move is conveying. Poetl does bring defence so look for them to prioritize that again.

If you received asset equity back like say a PJ Washimgton, a major positional need, or other and we are sucking due to injuries etc., you can shut them down. If we suck next year with Poetl he would likely be heading for the exits at some reduced value. I think currently the market is higher for him than fans of a 6th placed team would like to believe. There is that scenario, sucking, where Poetl and Brown are deadline moved next year.

That is why we will keep Brown. Asset retention. We'll have options later. I also read Gary worst case scenario could be a 27 mil cap hit over multiple years whereas Brown is a one year 23 mil hit if not deadline dealt or inconceibably walked away from.

PJ Washington plays the same position as Barnes. How does it make sense to trade Poeltl (a position of high need) for a guy who plays the same position as our best player?

[JRoy]

-SAS get TOR FRP and select 2 lotto talents to play with VW, beginning a decade of dominance in the west.
-TOR makes a play for an upgrade at sg, is spurned and signs GTJr for $17.5 million for 3 years.
-TOR reaches to draft an international prospect that becomes an excellent starter in 2-3 years and haters eat crow.

Off to a good start with these predictions.

[djsunyc]

Read on Twitter

[agkagk]

19th pick + bruce brown + boucher for wiggins and moody

(Podz replaced moody, 19 replaces moody, brown backs up and mentors kuminga for a year, boucher is a perfect bench fit there. Buys time, assets and helps their long term cap sheet).

Sign monte morris

Find a rim running backup centre

Surround barnes - rj - quick - dick - moody - acbaji - 5 random kids named nwora with winning vets.

Get back to being a quasi contender with a winning culture thats turns guys named who into all nba talent


Eff rebuilding, eff the play in.

barnes is a legit one, rj is a legit two. That team is loaded with young players with HIGH FLOORS

Thats our sauce.


Rj - quick - wiggins - barnes - jakub

Dick/moody - morris - acbaji/moody - kelly - rim runner

This is as good or better than the pacers and with a way higher ceiling.

Everyone is well slotted. Everyone has a long wingspan. We have a half dozen multi faceted scorers. We can run, we can defend, switch and best of all play and execute in the half court.

[Tor_Raps]

Read on Twitter

Imagine this pathetic roster being around the tax line. Just wait until Barnes's max extension kicks in next year and we're pretty much locked into this team that lacks massive talent..

[DreamTeam09]

Gimmie
Carrington at 19 Holmes at 31
Wiggins + 1st
Trent
Jalen Smith with MLE

[agkagk]

-SAS get TOR FRP and select 2 lotto talents to play with VW, beginning a decade of dominance in the west.
-TOR makes a play for an upgrade at sg, is spurned and signs GTJr for $17.5 million for 3 years.
-TOR reaches to draft an international prospect that becomes an excellent starter in 2-3 years and haters eat crow.

Off to a good start with these predictions.

Trade the 19th pick and brown for wiggins.


Eff up the league for a decade.

Barnes and rj are legit.

Those are our 1 2s


This team is legit a 3 and d sf and a veteran backup pg away.

developing quick into a championship level floor general is our biggest need

Barnes
Rj
Championship level floor general
Veteran winners (jakub, kelly, veteran pg, veteran 3d sf)

Thats a contender.

The entire league is TERRIBLE right now.

Lets go.


Ps: face it, were in between eras and generations. This is a historical low point for quality of play and competition.


Wiggins + monte morris and were at least a top 12 team.

[will]

Yeah, just get through next season without giving up a FRP.

[OAKLEY_2]

Sorry, I’m a little lost. If we trade Poeltl we need to look for another version of Poeltl? If we trade Poeltl I think that’s a sign we’re going to tank (I don’t think we are actually going to tank, at least not to start the season). Either way, I doubt we trade Poeltl because I don’t think his market is that strong so a) it doesn’t make sense to trade him if the offer is meh and b) it looks pretty bad to trade Poeltl for (likely) something much worse than the top 10 pick we may or may not give up soon to the Spurs. I would hope the front office would not let optics stop them from making moves that are in the best interest of the team long term.

As for adding a finishing piece like Gasol, that seems to be directly in the manual for how teams try to build title teams.

Gasol the one recognizeable element of building a contender once Kawhi was landed. The window of possible success was so narrow as to almost not exist.

As for Poetl the worst thing we could do is trade him for draft capital and yes that is prescriptive tanking. If we thought we had something else lined up to go with Kelly and possible draft piece I'd be looking at someone like PJ Washington for Poetl but... arguably that is a possible lateral move and against timeline doctrine. I fully expect them to try and compete next year so the only thing possible, but not probable with a Poetl move is conveying. Poetl does bring defence so look for them to prioritize that again.

If you received asset equity back like say a PJ Washimgton, a major positional need, or other and we are sucking due to injuries etc., you can shut them down. If we suck next year with Poetl he would likely be heading for the exits at some reduced value. I think currently the market is higher for him than fans of a 6th placed team would like to believe. There is that scenario, sucking, where Poetl and Brown are deadline moved next year.

That is why we will keep Brown. Asset retention. We'll have options later. I also read Gary worst case scenario could be a 27 mil cap hit over multiple years whereas Brown is a one year 23 mil hit if not deadline dealt or inconceibably walked away from.

PJ Washington plays the same position as Barnes. How does it make sense to trade Poeltl (a position of high need) for a guy who plays the same position as our best player?

Cause Scottie can play every position. No need for him to play any more than 20 mins at the 4.

[Thaddy]

There's a good chance Scottie, Barrett, Dick and Quickely come in better next year with a full training camp and another year of experience. I can also see Agbaji is comfortable here compared to his prior teams.

That makes tanking a lot harder and I doubt Masai goes in that direction. We will try to win now without jeopardizing the future. I would bet they would take on a bad contract if it fits the team needs well. That would make a case for Wiggins if they are up against high demands from Klay.

Poeltl - Olynyk
Barnes - Klintman (31)
Wiggins - Agbaji
Barrett - Dick
Quickely - Carter (19)

That team could probably make it to the play in. We would have 2 all stars and if IQ or RJ break out and we have a winning record we would have a third all star.

[YogurtProducer]

Read on Twitter

Imagine this pathetic roster being around the tax line. Just wait until Barnes's max extension kicks in next year and we're pretty much locked into this team that lacks massive talent..

Being near the tax line does not mean anything. Every year there is a number of teams there.

[Tor_Raps]

Read on Twitter

Imagine this pathetic roster being around the tax line. Just wait until Barnes's max extension kicks in next year and we're pretty much locked into this team that lacks massive talent..

Being near the tax line does not mean anything. Every year there is a number of teams there.

It means you aren't in a position that most true rebuilding teams should be in. Being well under the cap gives you another avenue to improve your team. Since we aren't even going to have our own pick after this pathetic season, it would have been nice to have some hope.

[brownbobcat]

$93M - Committed cap
$11M - Rookie capholds (changes depending on pick slot)

Let's say IQ's extension starts at $30M and they pick up Brown's option, that brings the total to $157M for 12 players. I don't want GTJ to walk for nothing, but you cannot overpay a player of his caliber - especially not when that comes with luxury tax consequences which limit trade flexibility. Ideally they'd get slightly lower on the IQ deal to get a bit more breathing room, but I think they will hold the line on GTJ at somewhere slightly above MLE. If they can't get IQ lower, I fully expect them to let GTJ walk and then try to split up the MLE on a few guys.

As an update, Raptors committed cap + rookie caphold is now $96.5M (9 players).

Maximum space with IQ caphold and renouncing Brown/GTJ is about $30M.

They could bring all those guys back at reasonable salaries (IQ: $30M, Brown: $23M, GTJ: $15M) and be well under the luxury tax at ~$164.5M. They could possibly even sign a full MLE player and be a luxury tax team, but below the 1st apron.

[YogurtProducer]

Imagine this pathetic roster being around the tax line. Just wait until Barnes's max extension kicks in next year and we're pretty much locked into this team that lacks massive talent..

Being near the tax line does not mean anything. Every year there is a number of teams there.

It means you aren't in a position that most true rebuilding teams should be in. Being well under the cap gives you another avenue to improve your team. Since we aren't even going to have our own pick after this pathetic season, it would have been nice to have some hope.

And what do those teams use that cap space on, eh?

Tons of rebuilding teams are near the cap every single year. Being right at the cap or near the tax line does not really matter in single season samples. Especially when you have potentially $40M coming off the books if we want it to be.

[DreamTeam09]

$93M - Committed cap
$11M - Rookie capholds (changes depending on pick slot)

Let's say IQ's extension starts at $30M and they pick up Brown's option, that brings the total to $157M for 12 players. I don't want GTJ to walk for nothing, but you cannot overpay a player of his caliber - especially not when that comes with luxury tax consequences which limit trade flexibility. Ideally they'd get slightly lower on the IQ deal to get a bit more breathing room, but I think they will hold the line on GTJ at somewhere slightly above MLE. If they can't get IQ lower, I fully expect them to let GTJ walk and then try to split up the MLE on a few guys.

As an update, Raptors committed cap + rookie caphold is now $96.5M (9 players).

Maximum space with IQ caphold and renouncing Brown/GTJ is about $30M.

They could bring all those guys back at reasonable salaries (IQ: $30M, Brown: $23M, GTJ: $15M) and be well under the luxury tax at ~$164.5M. They could possibly even sign a full MLE player and be a luxury tax team, but below the 1st apron.

A great offseason would be

Brown + McDaniels or Boucher for Wiggins
Resign Trent
Resign IQ
MLE on Smith or Wiseman
#19 McCain or Carrington
#31 Chomche

Remain under the tax

[djsunyc]

Imagine this pathetic roster being around the tax line. Just wait until Barnes's max extension kicks in next year and we're pretty much locked into this team that lacks massive talent..

Being near the tax line does not mean anything. Every year there is a number of teams there.

It means you aren't in a position that most true rebuilding teams should be in. Being well under the cap gives you another avenue to improve your team. Since we aren't even going to have our own pick after this pathetic season, it would have been nice to have some hope.

i think folks just want to keep bringing up anything they can to portray everything going on or anything we potentially do in a negative light.

in terms of tax line - the nba salary floor is 90% of the salary cap. having 10% cap space is around $14 mil - which is less than the MLE.

the cap last year was around $136 mil. only 3 teams were under it - charlotte, utah and orlando and all of them were between $132-137 mil. detroit was 4th at $138 mil.

the tax line was $165 mil. 16 teams operated under the tax line. of those, these are the "rebuilding" teams - portland, toronto, wiz, spurs, pistons, hornets, jazz

you either want to operate in the summer as a team significantly under the cap (meaning $15+ mil cap space so you can beat an mle offer) or be over the cap so you have the full mle at your disposal. whether you are at the cap line or all the way up to the tax line - it means nothing in terms of making trades and you still only have the MLE to spend. it's just money ownership needs to spend. there's also a limit on how much you can take back in a trade.

from my pov - we either operate as huge cap space team or we bring folks back and go over the cap so we still have nba rotation players and equally as important, contracts to be used in a trade.

[DG88]

What the Raptors do this off season really depends on how the lottery shakes out. Mainly do to cap reasons it will change the FO's approach. Ideally I think the Raptors want to keep their cap flexibility for as long as possible until they're ready to compete as a playoff team. At this juncture of their rebuild, it should be about asset accumulation and being opportunistic when the time comes.

Now that the lottery is over and we conveyed the pick I think we can get a bit of a clearer picture. By not paying the rookie scale contract for the 8th pick they save $2,806,080 this year and $11,740,701 over the duration of the contract between 8th and 19th. It also means it's one less piece to the puzzle of building this team. I think they want to build a young bench sprinkled with a vet or 2. Ideally you want a team that can grow together. Trying to speed up the process to be competitive sooner is going to be counter productive. Considering next year they could have a lottery pick in a deep draft that could have Scottie's running mate. Masai mentioned getting another talent to build with Scottie is something they're looking at. In this era of the NBA it's duo's with a deep roster that wins. The Raptors need to follow that blueprint.