Will Masai Tank 4 Flagg?

[manjusaka]

We should tank, but based on the year end pressers we probably going for the play-in next season.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

We'd be pairing down to Detroit levels of suck, to have a realistic chance at top three. We'd be sellers at the draft.

[YogurtProducer]

it is about continuous growth. if you get a very talented player(s) with high draft picks, they would be at worse a high end contributor on the bench, which we don't have even right now.

so to say not to grow our team with high end draft picks with BBQ going into their primes would be rediculous thing to suggest. talent is talent.

that being said, Raptors don't have these high end draft picks this year. lol

Nobody is opposed to getting more high end talent through the draft. We are discussing tanking though and when I think of a tanking, it's putting out dumpster fire rosters like we did the last 20 games of the season but for the entire year. What's the realistic path to doing that for the entire season while having Scottie, RJ and IQ on the roster?

They would have to trade Poeltl.

-start Olynyk, defense becomes terrible

-stay on development path with minutes for Dick, Agbaji, #19, #31

IQ/RJ/Barnes aren’t good enough to carry the team above. I’m not even sure IQ or Barrett ever top out above good role player. There’s a good chance Barnes tops out at 2nd option level.

What probably should be done: see how Barnes/IQ/Barrett look for the first 20 games. If 2 of them have made a leap then stay the course. If it looks like they’ve improved (but not enough to carry this team) then pull the plug early (trade Poeltl, the only thing holding the defense together) and flip to tank mode.

Give Barnes and IQ a chance to prove themselves early in the season but pull the rip cord if it’s not going well.

Yup. Anyone who says we need to add Flagg to IQ/Barnes/RJ/Dick are ignoring if we are bad enough to add Flagg to that core, then our current core is not good enough anyways and we will need a hell of a lot more.

[ConSarnit]

Nobody is opposed to getting more high end talent through the draft. We are discussing tanking though and when I think of a tanking, it's putting out dumpster fire rosters like we did the last 20 games of the season but for the entire year. What's the realistic path to doing that for the entire season while having Scottie, RJ and IQ on the roster?

the problem has been the bench for 3-4 years now... that plus 3 point shooting. starters need to rest eventually. if the BBQ era is struggling, its not going to be on those 3 tbh. Masai would have done a terrible job filling the bench with legit NBA talent, which is exactly what he has been doing the last few years. We probably would not have had to trade OG and Siakam if the Raptors had gotten even an average NBA bench (and 3 point shooting to go with it)

Sure, we can agree on that but that's not what's being discussed here.

How does this team bottom out to sub 20 wins if Scottie, RJ and IQ are performing to expectations and healthy? It's not realistic to think the bench can be so terrible that it loses you an additional 10-15 games more than an average bench.

I don’t think we can get to sub 20 wins but who are we jumping over next year?

CHI
ATL
BKN
UTA
MEM
SAS

Those are the teams at our level. MEM and SAS stand to make big jumps. Let’s say 2/4 of the other teams drop and 2/4 stay the same or improve. We finish 8th in that case?

This team started 9-11 last year. I don’t think it’s crazy to think we go 7-13 in the first 20.

I don’t think the issue to bottoming out is as much about talent as it is will. If we start bad (sort of my expectations) we could pivot to “really bad” if we wanted to. Will we, I doubt it.

Agree with the premise that getting to bottom 3 is going to be very difficult. I don’t think bottom 5 is a bridge too far.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

It's a top three draft, the premium options will be gone by fourth.

[ConSarnit]

Nobody is opposed to getting more high end talent through the draft. We are discussing tanking though and when I think of a tanking, it's putting out dumpster fire rosters like we did the last 20 games of the season but for the entire year. What's the realistic path to doing that for the entire season while having Scottie, RJ and IQ on the roster?

They would have to trade Poeltl.

-start Olynyk, defense becomes terrible

-stay on development path with minutes for Dick, Agbaji, #19, #31

IQ/RJ/Barnes aren’t good enough to carry the team above. I’m not even sure IQ or Barrett ever top out above good role player. There’s a good chance Barnes tops out at 2nd option level.

What probably should be done: see how Barnes/IQ/Barrett look for the first 20 games. If 2 of them have made a leap then stay the course. If it looks like they’ve improved (but not enough to carry this team) then pull the plug early (trade Poeltl, the only thing holding the defense together) and flip to tank mode.

Give Barnes and IQ a chance to prove themselves early in the season but pull the rip cord if it’s not going well.

Yup. Anyone who says we need to add Flagg to IQ/Barnes/RJ/Dick are ignoring if we are bad enough to add Flagg to that core, then our current core is not good enough anyways and we will need a hell of a lot more.

I don’t necessarily think we would need a lot more. BBQ surrounded by a bunch of 1st and 2nd year players isn’t a bad core (in theory). BBQ might progress next year but it might not be “Scottie is all-NBA and IQ is an all-star”. My feeling is we headed back some version of the old core:

Barnes: Siakam-level 2nd option (though I believe Barnes has a higher ceiling)

IQ: FVV level pg ie. 1 all star appearance in career

Barrett: tbd. Still not exactly sure of his fit. Don’t have a good comp for him

Dick: volume 3 wing

My rough contention right now is we still need a number 1. Scottie might get there but I don’t know. Taking (forcing) a step back next year might not be the worst idea. If we’re going to miss the play-in we might as well take our medicine and bottom out (or 2nd tier bottom out).

My expectations for next year are lower than others but I can’t really push back too much against the optimists because the core guys are of ages when possible significant improvements can happen. We should probably let that play out organically, at least for the first part of the season.

[tecumseh18]

It's a top three draft, the premium options will be gone by fourth.

Exactly what was said in 2021. And 2011.

For as long as I've been on this board, the whiners complain that Raptors pick is just outside the premium zone. And yet, we invariably seem to come away with something good (2014 and 2020 excepted). Not worried. There's a LOT of talent in 2025, as will become apparent in the course of next season.

[Steelo Green]

The Raptors were with Fred, Pascal and OG and were a lottery team but somehow without them, we are too good to tank?

Thunder with Shai tanked but somehow Raptors are too good to do it.

Wolves, Thunder, Celtics, Mavs are minus the Nuggets who are obviously a historical outlier the contenders in the NBA. All come from lottery picks and tanking.

We aren't even close.

If there was a realistic path to tanking, I mean sure outline it and we can evaluate but I'm not seeing it without blowing up the entire roster. Go look at those OKC tanking rosters, half of the rotational guys aren't even in the NBA anymore. To get that bad, we would need to get rid of IQ, RJ and Poeltl.

Last year it was, we are too good to tank with Fred, Pascal and OG, but now the next level of players fill in and we are too good to tank still?

Everyone may be in for a shock because we will tank without trying. I think other than the Wizards, every team will be better than us or about the same. We are around Pistons level.

[Steelo Green]

The Raptors were with Fred, Pascal and OG and were a lottery team but somehow without them, we are too good to tank?

Thunder with Shai tanked but somehow Raptors are too good to do it.

Wolves, Thunder, Celtics, Mavs are minus the Nuggets who are obviously a historical outlier the contenders in the NBA. All come from lottery picks and tanking.

We aren't even close.

Wolves needed 2 decades of beeing terrible. Only a good example for bad managment, but not a good one for tanking.

Celtics had one "bad" season in the last 10 years and that was 2013/14 with a 25-59 record, which is still higher than a tanking team would have. Every other year they were in the Playoffs. I dont see where the Celtics have tanked to become good.

Mavs worst season in recent years was 2017/2018; 24-58 and thats not even bad for a "tanking" team. Before and after they were always above 30 Wins. That is not tanking thats playing hard, despite beeing bad.

Nuggets isnt an outlier, its how championship teams are built. They give their young core time to develop and over time it pays off.
But they dont lose just to have a better pick.


And regarding the Thunder, there seems to be a big misconception about.
After the George Paul, Westbrook, Carmleo Fiasko they were forced to make a firesale as long as their assetts were worth something. Of course after that this team then was terrible, but it didnt cheat the game by losing on purpose - they competed.

Their record since then was:

2021: 22 - 50
2022: 24 - 48
2023: 40 - 42
2024: 57 - 25

Most notably, they improved from year to year.

The first two years they simply were a bad team, but they developed their players by playing hard.
Most of their assetts came also through trading - not through tanking.
Of course beeing cautions with Shai was the right choice, but it was not about losing them games. It was about giving shai the time he needed to be healthy again and it paid off.

OKC didnt care if their record was 10-72 or 30-52, they wanted to develop their players. And thats how you do it.

Essentially it took them 2 years to be in the mix again.

To sum it up:

All your examples for tanking are false. If you want an example for tanking: Look at what the Pistons are doing or 76ers have done. Essentially they failed to develop their Players or/and to build around their talent. Continuity comes into mind.

Embid is everything thats left of the 76ers Tank years and the best they managed was the 2nd round in the Playoffs.
After beeing terrible so many years, you would think they achieve more than that.
OKC is about to eclipse them in their first try.

Back to the Raptors comparsion to OKC:


Raptors are in a different spot than OKC was then. Raptors have 4 young players (Dick, Barnes, Quickley, RJ) that they can build with, they have 1 veteran (Poeltl) on the roster who is young enough and can be part of that team in the future. The rest will be replaced if the opportunity arises. Essentially you already have 5 players for the rotation.

If Barnes is our Shai, than you already have what you want and just need to develop and let them compete. If you dont think Barnes is it, then explore all options to aquire the talent and/or entice a starplayer by beeing a up and coming team, which means - compete.

Tanking only ruins the development of the players and annoys them, which leads them to leave a team.
And after all that you still can strike out on good talent and stand there with empty hands.

Are you beeing serious?

[PushDaRock]

The Raptors were with Fred, Pascal and OG and were a lottery team but somehow without them, we are too good to tank?

Thunder with Shai tanked but somehow Raptors are too good to do it.

Wolves, Thunder, Celtics, Mavs are minus the Nuggets who are obviously a historical outlier the contenders in the NBA. All come from lottery picks and tanking.

We aren't even close.

If there was a realistic path to tanking, I mean sure outline it and we can evaluate but I'm not seeing it without blowing up the entire roster. Go look at those OKC tanking rosters, half of the rotational guys aren't even in the NBA anymore. To get that bad, we would need to get rid of IQ, RJ and Poeltl.

Last year it was, we are too good to tank with Fred, Pascal and OG, but now the next level of players fill in and we are too good to tank still?

Everyone may be in for a shock because we will tank without trying. I think other than the Wizards, every team will be better than us or about the same. We are around Pistons level.

If you think that, then probably none of Scottie, IQ or RJ are worth building around and 2 of 3 at least should be moved.

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I don't think they roll back this roster next year without significant upgrades.

[will]

I don't think they roll back this roster next year without significant upgrades.

I would like to be on board with you regarding that statement.

Where and how are the signficant upgrades going to become a reality?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I don't think they roll back this roster next year without significant upgrades.

I would like to be on board with you regarding that statement.

Where and how are the signficant upgrades going to become a reality?

They over projected the cap, that leads to a lot of players looking for new homes.

[will]

I don't think they roll back this roster next year without significant upgrades.

I would like to be on board with you regarding that statement.

Where and how are the signficant upgrades going to become a reality?

They over projected the cap, that leads to a lot of players looking for new homes.

So, there are going to be mega free agents looking to call Toronto home, huh?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

I would like to be on board with you regarding that statement.

Where and how are the signficant upgrades going to become a reality?

They over projected the cap, that leads to a lot of players looking for new homes.

So, there are going to be mega free agents looking to call Toronto home, huh?

Probably trades, but the same idea.

[will]

They over projected the cap, that leads to a lot of players looking for new homes.

So, there are going to be mega free agents looking to call Toronto home, huh?

Probably trades, but the same idea.

Eh. Who outside of Scottish is an asset teams will really want via trade?

[Harcore Fenton Mun]

So, there are going to be mega free agents looking to call Toronto home, huh?

Probably trades, but the same idea.

Eh. Who outside of Scottish is an asset teams will really want via trade?

You can start to see the board opening up. Like, LA wont pay PG. Or, ATL probably going young (cheap). Look at teams over the cap.

[DelAbbot]

So, there are going to be mega free agents looking to call Toronto home, huh?

Probably trades, but the same idea.

Eh. Who outside of Scottish is an asset teams will really want via trade?

Masai: yesterday was perfect, now I can trade 2025 FRP

[will]

Probably trades, but the same idea.

Eh. Who outside of Scottish is an asset teams will really want via trade?

You can start to see the board opening up. Like, LA wont pay PG. Or, ATL probably going young (cheap). Look at teams over the cap.

I wish I had your optimism, man.

[dagger]

We'd be pairing down to Detroit levels of suck, to have a realistic chance at top three. We'd be sellers at the draft.

Detroit had the worst record three years in a row now and has ended up drafting fifth three years in a row. I get the Flagg thing, but you had better be confident that the fifth overall pick is going to be good before you embark on a plan to have the worst record