Masai Approval Rating

[Los_29]

In Tampa we were playing 3-4 starters, 30+mpg up until like the 63rd game in a season with 72 games, that's not tanking. And the Rudy Gay trade being explicit tanking is absolutely revisionist history. Trading one player is not a tank job, maybe it was the beginning of one, but it ended up being a re-tool.

This season was the closest thing to tanking he has ever come to in his entire career, and even that was half assed.

Tampa was definitely a tank year. I’m genuinely surprised to see that some people on here believe they didn’t try to tank. I thought it was common knowledge at this point. We were one of the first teams that year to start sitting our players. I remember that some people on here actually thought that picking up Khem Birch was a sign that we were going for the playoffs.

If you want to think that 4 starters playing 35mpg is tanking with 10 games left in the season, then be my guest.

Check the game logs. Raptors sat out a lot of players down the stretch and fielded some atrocious lineups. They also started sitting guys before lots of other teams. It was a clear tank job. So clear that the team even got fined for it and players openly admitted they tanked.

[Tor_Raps]

Tampa tank happened because the team sucked even when they tried their best. It was very similar to what happened this past year where the Raptprs pivoted to another tank job but this time they did that on behalf of the Spurs.

Doing a true tank job from the start is a completely different thing and that's not something this franchise has done in a very very long time. I don't see this front office proceeding this offseason in a tanking fashion but let's see how things go. Tanking teams don't spend 1st Rounders on guys like Olynyk and a failed prospect at the moment.

[Scase]

Tampa was definitely a tank year. I’m genuinely surprised to see that some people on here believe they didn’t try to tank. I thought it was common knowledge at this point. We were one of the first teams that year to start sitting our players. I remember that some people on here actually thought that picking up Khem Birch was a sign that we were going for the playoffs.

If you want to think that 4 starters playing 35mpg is tanking with 10 games left in the season, then be my guest.

Check the game logs. Raptors sat out a lot of players down the stretch and fielded some atrocious lineups. They also started sitting guys before lots of other teams. It was a clear tank job. So clear that the team even got fined for it and players openly admitted they tanked.

I already checked them, that's why I specifically stated a game with 4 starters playing 30-35min with 10 games left in the season. I'm not sitting here making **** up for fun.

April 29th, 2021 Raptors vs Nuggets Starting lineup and minutes

Birch 36min
OG 34min
Lowry 33.5min
Flynn 32min
Siakam 32min

That was game number 63 of 72. 9 Games remaining in the season, and we are fielding 4/5 starters, all playing 32-36min.

May 1st, 2021 Raptors vs Jazz Starting lineup and minutes

OG 41min
Siakam 40min
FVV 40min
Flynn 36.5min
Birch 35min

That was game number 64 of 72. 8 Games remaining in the season, and we are fielding 4/5 starters, all playing 36-41min.

After that game you saw a spattering of games with a combination of 2-3 of Siakam/OG/FVV/Lowry/Birch/GTJ for the remainder of the season.

We had EIGHT games left in the season, and we were running 3 starters 40min and 1 35. That is not tanking, that is a team that got hit with covid/tampa/bs and 7 games of active resting of players.

Siakam only missed 16 games that year.
FVV only missed 20 games that year.
Lowry only missed 26 games that year.
OG only missed 29 games that year.

I'm not going to say they went balls to the wall every game all year long, but a lot of those games were 3+ of those 4 playing together for major minutes.

In the back half of the season each player missed games :

FVV 35-39, 50-56, 58, 63,65, 68-72
Siakam 34-39, 53, 57-58,69-72
OG 35-40, 43,54, 57-58, 65-72
Lowry 46, 48-53, 55-59, 64, 66-72

Theres a stretch in the 34-40 game range where clearly multiple starters all came down with covid/exposed to it, but otherwise the only real overlap you see again for major games are in the last 5-7 games of the season.

Not the same, call it whatever you want, but no tanking team plays multiple starters for 40min in games with 7 left in the season. The team was just bad.

[OakleyDokely]

The key to a stealth tank is to not have a lot of overlap. Have 1 or 2 key guys out at all times. This is usually enough to lose most games. Sitting everyone for the last 30 games isn't something the league will put up with unless there are clearly major injuries with all of them. The league has already issued warnings about this.

[Scase]

The key to a stealth tank is to not have a lot of overlap. Have 1 or 2 key guys out at all times. This is usually enough to lose most games. Sitting everyone for the last 30 games isn't something the league will put up with unless there are clearly major injuries with all of them. The league has already issued warnings about this.

Yeah and you don't stealth tank playing 4/5 starters 40min in the end of the season either. You don't stealth tank a team that won 53 games the season prior, by sitting one or two guys here and there.

It was 16-29 games per player. The 4 of them missed 10-15 of those games all together, 15+ of those had 3 of them missing it together. This was covid coincidence and then a more blatant shut down with 5-10 games left in the season. Which accounts for 1/3 to 1/2 of their missing games.

Again, this was never a stealth tank, and only became obvious with less than 10 games in the season. I quite literally posted the exact games they were out and how many they missed all year.

We were a worse team than the year prior, we were in tampa, and we had covid to deal with. Not some magical shut em down tank fest. There was enough overlap for it to be pretty obviously covid/exposure issues, but not enough to show it was an intentional tank, stealth or otherwise. They played plenty of games together.

[OakleyDokely]

I.mean they had 1 or 2 guys out then they tanked heavily towards the end of the year, which is what almost all tanking teams do. Nobody shuts everyone down halfway through the season, unless they are hit with massive injuries.

[CazOnReal]

Masai: We tanked

Well, actually...!

[SharoneWright]

Read on Twitter

I’m sick….

Have the Spurs managed to get even a single rotation player out of that? I just see a whole lot of nothing from the Spurs. They can change that by getting a gem at #8. It would be funny if the Spurs don’t end up getting anyone as good as Poeltl out of all this.

Biggest problem was the timing though. Masai had tunnel vision, thinking we could still contend when it was pretty clear we could not.

[CazOnReal]

I’m sick….

Have the Spurs managed to get even a single rotation player out of that? I just see a whole lot of nothing from the Spurs. They can change that by getting a gem at #8. It would be funny if the Spurs don’t end up getting anyone as good as Poeltl out of all this.

Biggest problem was the timing though. Masai had tunnel vision, thinking we could still contend when it was pretty clear we could not.

Should have gone after Richaun Holmes or Isaiah Hartenstein in the 2021 offseason if they were so concerned about getting a center. Granted, Holmes fell off hard due to injury but you can never predict that sort of thing.

[tecumseh18]

Tampa tank happened because the team sucked even when they tried their best. It was very similar to what happened this past year where the Raptprs pivoted to another tank job but this time they did that on behalf of the Spurs.

No, in Tampa and the last six weeks of this season, the team did what I call a calibrated tank, putting out lineups against the particular opponent that will be competitive, but still probably lose. It's not a foolproof approach. I remember in Tampa we played virtually no rotation players against the Magic, but still won the game because Paul Watson and Yuta Watanabe combined for 50(!) points. I mean, WTF ya gonna do?

A calibrated tank is an ethical tank. For example, the Denver fans who paid to watch us this season a few months ago were treated to an entertaining game thanks to RJ Barrett (and Jontay Porter). That's important. I remember as an SSHer having to go watch games against the process Sixers, who had zero NBA talent on the floor. I will always be happy when that team continues to fall on its face. That was an unethical tank, and karma is a bitch.

Doing a true tank job from the start is a completely different thing and that's not something this franchise has done in a very very long time. I don't see this front office proceeding this offseason in a tanking fashion but let's see how things go. Tanking teams don't spend 1st Rounders on guys like Olynyk and a failed prospect at the moment.

The "first rounder" for Olynyk is #29, making it basically a worst version of a second round pick as it will require paying guaranteed money for two seasons. Raptors have a better version of a first round pick - i.e. no guaranteed money - at #31.

And the Raptors prioritize player development, NOT tanking. As Nurse said last season - IIRC after a win against the Pistons - young players develop more by winning than by losing. So sorry, but the Raptors will NEVER try to tank from the beginning of the year. Very few teams in NBA history have

[Scase]

I.mean they had 1 or 2 guys out then they tanked heavily towards the end of the year, which is what almost all tanking teams do. Nobody shuts everyone down halfway through the season, unless they are hit with massive injuries.

5-7 games is not "towards the end" it is literally less than 10% of the season.

[Los_29]

Tampa tank happened because the team sucked even when they tried their best. It was very similar to what happened this past year where the Raptprs pivoted to another tank job but this time they did that on behalf of the Spurs.

Doing a true tank job from the start is a completely different thing and that's not something this franchise has done in a very very long time. I don't see this front office proceeding this offseason in a tanking fashion but let's see how things go. Tanking teams don't spend 1st Rounders on guys like Olynyk and a failed prospect at the moment.

We were not a good team at all but we weren’t terrible. We were 17-17 at one point and things started to fall off once guys started getting hurt. The last two months of the year, you’d be hard pressed to find teams that tanked harder than we did.

[WaltFrazier]

The key to a stealth tank is to not have a lot of overlap. Have 1 or 2 key guys out at all times. This is usually enough to lose most games. Sitting everyone for the last 30 games isn't something the league will put up with unless there are clearly major injuries with all of them. The league has already issued warnings about this.

You're right, there's an effective way to do it.

But reading this just made me think how awful it is that intentionally losing is an accepted thing in the NBA. And there's a sneaky way to do it without getting in trouble with the league rules. I hate the concept.

[OakleyDokely]

I.mean they had 1 or 2 guys out then they tanked heavily towards the end of the year, which is what almost all tanking teams do. Nobody shuts everyone down halfway through the season, unless they are hit with massive injuries.

5-7 games is not "towards the end" it is literally less than 10% of the season.

Which teams are sitting all their guys for 40 games though? It doesn't happen unless their are legitimate injuries.

Teams will rest guys throughout the back half of the season (stretch out injuries, rest on B2B etc) then basically sit everyone the last few games. The NBA and NBAPA would never allow teams to shutdown multiple players months before the season ends.

Tanking from the start of the season is a myth. Most teams that finish at the bottom have either bad rosters like the Wiz or a team loses a key guy early like MEM. It isn't some master plan.

[bluerap23]

Incredible run culminating in Championship A++++

Slow to react with the rebuild C-

Moves made last year A -

Raptor fans still complaining about trading a pick in a weak draft 2 years ago F

Masai has righted the ship. I'm looking forward to the BBQ era and beyond.

[Scase]

I.mean they had 1 or 2 guys out then they tanked heavily towards the end of the year, which is what almost all tanking teams do. Nobody shuts everyone down halfway through the season, unless they are hit with massive injuries.

5-7 games is not "towards the end" it is literally less than 10% of the season.

Which teams are sitting all their guys for 40 games though? It doesn't happen unless their are legitimate injuries.

Teams will rest guys throughout the back half of the season (stretch out injuries, rest on B2B etc) then basically sit everyone the last few games. The NBA and NBAPA would never allow teams to shutdown multiple players months before the season ends.

Tanking from the start of the season is a myth. Most teams that finish at the bottom have either bad rosters like the Wiz or a team loses a key guy early like MEM. It isn't some master plan.

You're missing the point.

They didn't sit out guys in chunks together, nor did they sit out one or two randomly more than a regular season. My point is they didn't tank, they were bad, and dealt with covid. The team was a mediocre 17-18 before the first chunk of games that were lost by 4-5 starters, which was covid related. After that stretch they were 18-26, and until the next stretch where they sat out 4-5 starters they went 9-12, after which they went 0-7 to close out the season.

So again, to reiterate. We were below .500 by a single game. Got hit by covid, went 0-9 in that stretch, went 9-12, then sat all but 2 starters at most, and went 0-7. At best you could argue we intentionally tanked the last 7 games. But tanking teams don't go 27-38 while playing most of their roster, we were just bad, and it was compounded by covid and tampa.

It's almost like you haven't been watching the last decade+. Or hell, even last year. We were 22-38 when Scottie went down, and we only really started the tank once Jak went out. We had a blatantly **** year, and we were still playing all our starters at every turn, only when his hand was forced, did we shut it down.

Masai.
Dos.
Not.
Tank.

[OakleyDokely]

5-7 games is not "towards the end" it is literally less than 10% of the season.

Which teams are sitting all their guys for 40 games though? It doesn't happen unless their are legitimate injuries.

Teams will rest guys throughout the back half of the season (stretch out injuries, rest on B2B etc) then basically sit everyone the last few games. The NBA and NBAPA would never allow teams to shutdown multiple players months before the season ends.

Tanking from the start of the season is a myth. Most teams that finish at thttps://forums.realgm.com/boards/index.php?mark_notification=107618597&hash=11c106dbhe bottom have either bad rosters like the Wiz or a team loses a key guy early like MEM. It isn't some master plan.

You're missing the point.

They didn't sit out guys in chunks together, nor did they sit out one or two randomly more than a regular season. My point is they didn't tank, they were bad, and dealt with covid. The team was a mediocre 17-18 before the first chunk of games that were lost by 4-5 starters, which was covid related. After that stretch they were 18-26, and until the next stretch where they sat out 4-5 starters they went 9-12, after which they went 0-7 to close out the season.

So again, to reiterate. We were below .500 by a single game. Got hit by covid, went 0-9 in that stretch, went 9-12, then sat all but 2 starters at most, and went 0-7. At best you could argue we intentionally tanked the last 7 games. But tanking teams don't go 27-38 while playing most of their roster, we were just bad, and it was compounded by covid and tampa.

It's almost like you haven't been watching the last decade+. Or hell, even last year. We were 22-38 when Scottie went down, and we only really started the tank once Jak went out. We had a blatantly **** year, and we were still playing all our starters at every turn, only when his hand was forced, did we shut it down.

Masai.
Dos.
Not.
Tank.

Other than the important fact that Masai admitted live on TV that they did in fact implement a tank. That's not something you admit to it if you didn't do it, because you'd get in trouble with the league.

You have this very narrow view on what tanking is, when it's a lot more subtle. Tanking isn't just resting people, it's also trading away core players like they did in TB with Norm (who was lighting it up at the time) and this year with Siakam/OG.

The Raps obviously prioritized draft position over winning in TB and this year after the deadlines.

[JB7]

Which teams are sitting all their guys for 40 games though? It doesn't happen unless their are legitimate injuries.

Teams will rest guys throughout the back half of the season (stretch out injuries, rest on B2B etc) then basically sit everyone the last few games. The NBA and NBAPA would never allow teams to shutdown multiple players months before the season ends.

Tanking from the start of the season is a myth. Most teams that finish at thttps://forums.realgm.com/boards/index.php?mark_notification=107618597&hash=11c106dbhe bottom have either bad rosters like the Wiz or a team loses a key guy early like MEM. It isn't some master plan.

You're missing the point.

They didn't sit out guys in chunks together, nor did they sit out one or two randomly more than a regular season. My point is they didn't tank, they were bad, and dealt with covid. The team was a mediocre 17-18 before the first chunk of games that were lost by 4-5 starters, which was covid related. After that stretch they were 18-26, and until the next stretch where they sat out 4-5 starters they went 9-12, after which they went 0-7 to close out the season.

So again, to reiterate. We were below .500 by a single game. Got hit by covid, went 0-9 in that stretch, went 9-12, then sat all but 2 starters at most, and went 0-7. At best you could argue we intentionally tanked the last 7 games. But tanking teams don't go 27-38 while playing most of their roster, we were just bad, and it was compounded by covid and tampa.

It's almost like you haven't been watching the last decade+. Or hell, even last year. We were 22-38 when Scottie went down, and we only really started the tank once Jak went out. We had a blatantly **** year, and we were still playing all our starters at every turn, only when his hand was forced, did we shut it down.

Masai.
Dos.
Not.
Tank.

Other than the important fact that Masai admitted live on TV that they did in fact implement a tank. That's not something you admit to it if you didn't do it, because you'd get in trouble with the league.

You have this very narrow view on what tanking is, when it's a lot more subtle. Tanking isn't just resting people, it's also trading away core players like they did in TB with Norm (who was lighting it up at the time) and this year with Siakam/OG.

The Raps obviously prioritized draft position over winning in TB and this year after the deadlines.

Yep, the Tampa season was definitely a tank job at the end of the season. They were trying to get into the playoffs during the season, but once Covid hit the team hard, it took them out of a chance at the playoffs, and combined with the fact they were playing in Tampa, they had no reason to pursue wins at the end of the season. I believe after the trade deadline, they pretty much shut down Lowry, to protect his value in FA, and started rotating starters to sit/rest each game, which with a team already relying on a limited roster, was a clearly a tank move.

Masai valued a high draft pick in a talented 2021 draft. The reason they tanked this year, was once Barnes went down, the possibility of making the play-in disappeared. So they made the logical move to stealth tank and increase their chances at a top 4 pick.

[Scase]

Which teams are sitting all their guys for 40 games though? It doesn't happen unless their are legitimate injuries.

Teams will rest guys throughout the back half of the season (stretch out injuries, rest on B2B etc) then basically sit everyone the last few games. The NBA and NBAPA would never allow teams to shutdown multiple players months before the season ends.

Tanking from the start of the season is a myth. Most teams that finish at thttps://forums.realgm.com/boards/index.php?mark_notification=107618597&hash=11c106dbhe bottom have either bad rosters like the Wiz or a team loses a key guy early like MEM. It isn't some master plan.

You're missing the point.

They didn't sit out guys in chunks together, nor did they sit out one or two randomly more than a regular season. My point is they didn't tank, they were bad, and dealt with covid. The team was a mediocre 17-18 before the first chunk of games that were lost by 4-5 starters, which was covid related. After that stretch they were 18-26, and until the next stretch where they sat out 4-5 starters they went 9-12, after which they went 0-7 to close out the season.

So again, to reiterate. We were below .500 by a single game. Got hit by covid, went 0-9 in that stretch, went 9-12, then sat all but 2 starters at most, and went 0-7. At best you could argue we intentionally tanked the last 7 games. But tanking teams don't go 27-38 while playing most of their roster, we were just bad, and it was compounded by covid and tampa.

It's almost like you haven't been watching the last decade+. Or hell, even last year. We were 22-38 when Scottie went down, and we only really started the tank once Jak went out. We had a blatantly **** year, and we were still playing all our starters at every turn, only when his hand was forced, did we shut it down.

Masai.
Dos.
Not.
Tank.

Other than the important fact that Masai admitted live on TV that they did in fact implement a tank. That's not something you admit to it if you didn't do it, because you'd get in trouble with the league.

You have this very narrow view on what tanking is, when it's a lot more subtle. Tanking isn't just resting people, it's also trading away core players like they did in TB with Norm (who was lighting it up at the time) and this year with Siakam/OG.

The Raps obviously prioritized draft position over winning in TB and this year after the deadlines.

He was laughing and facetiously called it the tampa tank. He in no way admitted to tanking. Trading away norm was in NO WAY tanking, like what is this? They kept the entire core of the team intact, and traded a bench player. No one in their right mind considers that a tanking move.

You're missing the point.

They didn't sit out guys in chunks together, nor did they sit out one or two randomly more than a regular season. My point is they didn't tank, they were bad, and dealt with covid. The team was a mediocre 17-18 before the first chunk of games that were lost by 4-5 starters, which was covid related. After that stretch they were 18-26, and until the next stretch where they sat out 4-5 starters they went 9-12, after which they went 0-7 to close out the season.

So again, to reiterate. We were below .500 by a single game. Got hit by covid, went 0-9 in that stretch, went 9-12, then sat all but 2 starters at most, and went 0-7. At best you could argue we intentionally tanked the last 7 games. But tanking teams don't go 27-38 while playing most of their roster, we were just bad, and it was compounded by covid and tampa.

It's almost like you haven't been watching the last decade+. Or hell, even last year. We were 22-38 when Scottie went down, and we only really started the tank once Jak went out. We had a blatantly **** year, and we were still playing all our starters at every turn, only when his hand was forced, did we shut it down.

Masai.
Dos.
Not.
Tank.

Other than the important fact that Masai admitted live on TV that they did in fact implement a tank. That's not something you admit to it if you didn't do it, because you'd get in trouble with the league.

You have this very narrow view on what tanking is, when it's a lot more subtle. Tanking isn't just resting people, it's also trading away core players like they did in TB with Norm (who was lighting it up at the time) and this year with Siakam/OG.

The Raps obviously prioritized draft position over winning in TB and this year after the deadlines.

Yep, the Tampa season was definitely a tank job at the end of the season. They were trying to get into the playoffs during the season, but once Covid hit the team hard, it took them out of a chance at the playoffs, and combined with the fact they were playing in Tampa, they had no reason to pursue wins at the end of the season. I believe after the trade deadline, they pretty much shut down Lowry, to protect his value in FA, and started rotating starters to sit/rest each game, which with a team already relying on a limited roster, was a clearly a tank move.

Masai valued a high draft pick in a talented 2021 draft. The reason they tanked this year, was once Barnes went down, the possibility of making the play-in disappeared. So they made the logical move to stealth tank and increase their chances at a top 4 pick.

This is partially true. Lowry was the only player "shut down" by any stretch. If we ignore the only part that I agree was intentional tanking, which was the last 7ish games or so. Lowry missed 11 games from games 46-58. OG missed 3 in that span, Siakam missed 3 in that span, FVV missed 8 in that span.

Otherwise, as I have stated multiple times, we were regularly playing as many as 4 starters major minutes up until 7 games left in the season. That is flat out not tanking, I don't understand how seeing OG/FVV/Khem/Siakam playing 40min in the 64 game of a 72 game season, thats 8 games left in the season, is seen as tanking. 2 games prior to that, they fielded a SL of FVV/KL/Siakam/OG/Birch and they played 42/37/35/32/32 minutes respectively, that was a 26-36 team.

That is not tanking, playing your entire starting 5 major minutes is not tanking. We were not in a position to make the playoffs, we had a record of 25-34 on april 21st, with 13 games left in the season. The wiz made the final spot in the east with a record of 34-38. We would have had to go 9-4 to tie with the pacers for the last 2 play in spots. We played 5 starters in 4 of the next 6 games, and 4 starters in the last 2. There was virtually zero chance of us making the playoffs. We went 2-7 before actually tanking.

Saying that is tanking, is like trying to argue the Jak trade wasn't a win now move. It is not consistent with reality. Not playing 5 starters for 7 or 8 games does not constitute tanking. They didn't selectively sit players out to game the system all year round, they didn't sit out entire lineups outside of 1 or 2 covid instances. They tried the entire season, to win, and they sucked, and then way after it was obvious the season was over, then we threw a handful of games.

You guys can argue until you are blue in the face that we tanked, but lineups and game time rosters don't lie.

[OakleyDokely]

Other than trading core players, shut downing other core players and sitting out players, they didn't tank.