Will Masai Tank 4 Flagg?

[PushDaRock]

You don't have to. Rookies make tons of mistakes.

On what planet is 6th year Barrett, 4th year Barnes and 5th year IQ rookies? People are pretending our core are bunch of 19 year olds and not 2 years from all being Vets

that's just three guys. If the rest of the team is Gradey Dicks and Agbajis, that's going to be a horrible team. Scottie isn't good enough to lift a gleague roster. With Poeltl and Kelly, it gets a little harder since these guys are solid vets but even then, i don't think we're too far off. If Poeltl misses a few weeks, the team will plummet because we don't have any sort of replacement for him.

Are you not expecting improvement from all 3 of them? Scottie, RJ and IQ would have to be having incredibly disappointing seasons if they're all healthy and we are winning under 20 games no matter how horrific the rest of the roster is. There isn't a world where those 3 exceed expectations and we suck this badly.

Even if they didn't improve at all, if you take the Toronto numbers from RJ and IQ, they averaged 22 and 19 ppg while Scottie was at 20 a game. That's 61 ppg on slightly above efficiency between them. You would need McDaniels level production from the rest of the roster to lose that many games.

[PushDaRock]

Are you getting rid of Scottie, RJ and IQ?

You don't have to. Rookies make tons of mistakes.

On what planet is 6th year Barrett, 4th year Barnes and 5th year IQ rookies? People are pretending our core are bunch of 19 year olds and not 2 years from all being Vets

Trying to understand this myself. Scottie will have signed a max extension and RJ/IQ would be on their 2nd contracts both getting around 30m AAV most likely. If you're expecting to win 20 games with those guys getting paid that much money, then those players probably aren't that good in the first place and not worth building around at all.

[ItsDanger]

You don't have to. Rookies make tons of mistakes.

On what planet is 6th year Barrett, 4th year Barnes and 5th year IQ rookies? People are pretending our core are bunch of 19 year olds and not 2 years from all being Vets

Trying to understand this myself. Scottie will have signed a max extension and RJ/IQ would be on their 2nd contracts both getting around 30m AAV most likely. If you're expecting to win 20 games with those guys getting paid that much money, then those players probably aren't that good in the first place and not worth building around at all.

If you play 3 rookies in 7/8 man rotation, SB/RJ/IQ may improve but it won't be enough to compensate for a lot of inevitable rookie mistakes.

The real issue is would those 3 guys be on board with being really bad another season.

[PushDaRock]

On what planet is 6th year Barrett, 4th year Barnes and 5th year IQ rookies? People are pretending our core are bunch of 19 year olds and not 2 years from all being Vets

Trying to understand this myself. Scottie will have signed a max extension and RJ/IQ would be on their 2nd contracts both getting around 30m AAV most likely. If you're expecting to win 20 games with those guys getting paid that much money, then those players probably aren't that good in the first place and not worth building around at all.

If you play 3 rookies in 7/8 man rotation, SB/RJ/IQ may improve but it won't be enough to compensate for a lot of inevitable rookie mistakes.

Are you expecting every rookie to be sub 50% TS on offense and pylons putting up 125+ DRTG on D? That's how bad the rest of the roster would need to be to win under 20 games with improvement from our main guys.

[Clutch0z24]

On what planet is 6th year Barrett, 4th year Barnes and 5th year IQ rookies? People are pretending our core are bunch of 19 year olds and not 2 years from all being Vets

that's just three guys. If the rest of the team is Gradey Dicks and Agbajis, that's going to be a horrible team. Scottie isn't good enough to lift a gleague roster. With Poeltl and Kelly, it gets a little harder since these guys are solid vets but even then, i don't think we're too far off. If Poeltl misses a few weeks, the team will plummet because we don't have any sort of replacement for him.

Are you not expecting improvement from all 3 of them? Scottie, RJ and IQ would have to be having incredibly disappointing seasons if they're all healthy and we are winning under 20 games no matter how horrific the rest of the roster is. There isn't a world where those 3 exceed expectations and we suck this badly.

Even if they didn't improve at all, if you take the Toronto numbers from RJ and IQ, they averaged 22 and 19 ppg while Scottie was at 20 a game. That's 61 ppg on slightly above efficiency between them. You would need McDaniels level production from the rest of the roster to lose that many games.

They will improve yes...But the NBA as a whole there are so many deeper teams than us....If you look at it i can say we were a better team to start the season last year...

OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder vs Barrett/IQ/Olynyk/Brown

You can make an argument that in terms of winning games that the 4 we had are really sim to the 4 we traded for in terms of overall talent...So if the team with OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder only got you 15-20 or so wins why is it different to say we will be in a very sim position come next season?...

The guys won't improve that much to make a 20-25 win team to take a leap to 40-45 win team....And we will not upgrade in the offseason enough to make that leap either....We will prolly do the opposite and trade some of the vets we have for draft picks/young talent.

We were a poor team with a all NBA All star level player in Siakam and one of the best if not the best 2 way player in the league in OG.... I like IQ/Barrett but they are still not on the level of them 2 just yet....And we lost majority of games last year which is why we traded everyone and started fresh.

[PhilBlackson]

The options don’t reflect the thread title…the thread as “will” he and the options are implying what do I want — 2 different things entirely.

I want to tank for Malauch, Flagg or Bailey BUT…I have no faith at all that Masai will do so and in fact believe he will idiotically do the opposite. Don’t be shocked when he makes another win now move at the deadline and tries to sign more veteran players to win now too.

I just don’t buy for a second that the people he works for now (his fellow chairman, not the fans anymore) will allow him to watch ticket sales dwindle. They don’t wanna turn this into the BlueJays with a once great franchise that just goes through streaks of fandom. They know the casuals only tune in if they hear we might be in the Playoffs.

So we 100% SHOULD but WON’T.

[WuTang_OG]

Boston
76ers
Bucks
Indy
NY
Cavs
Miami
Orlando

are for sure betting than us next season. That's 8 teams.

ATL ? what happens with them
Bulls ? same thing .. both are better than us today.
Both teams TBD - gotta see what they do.

BRK .. better coaching. They will improve next year. I'd probably slot Toronto in this tier today. But they'll be better

TOR at best is a 9-10 play in team IMO next season. And that's if we stay healthy all year. We still need more top end talent. We don't have the depth to sustain any winning if we get injuries. We won't be good and my guess is 12th in the east.

Now that we have our pick for 2025, we just let these guys play and see what happens. I dont wana see anymore stupid vet deals. Just re-up Temple for lockeroom presence thats all we need.

[DG88]

24/25 Roster:

Guaranteed Salaries
RJ Barrett
Bruce Brown - TO
Jakob Poeltl
Kelly Olynyk
Chris Boucher
Scottie Barnes
Gradey Dick
Jalen McDaniels
Ochai Agbaji
Javon Freeman-Liberty
D.J. Carton - Two Way
Mouhamadou Gueye - Two Way
Pick 19
Pick 31

Free Agents
Immanuel Quickley - RFA
Gary Trent Jr. - UFA
Jordan Nwora - UFA
Malik Williams - UFA
Garrett Temple - UFA

Let's say that both Quickley and Temple are back that puts at 14 roster spots. Going into 24/25 season. Brown could be traded for a player and a future pick. It's really hard for me to see this group being good enough as they are constructed. Seems like a 10-12 seeded team in the East. The team needs more shooting, more guard play and vertical spacing. So anyone thinking that this roster should be a Play-In team or even a low seed playoff team next year is out to lunch. They need so much more to get to that point. So I don't see how people think this team can win 40+ games.

[PhilBlackson]

I’m just telling my tWo man dem lol don’t even get your hopes up, seriously.

You know Masai will not only NOT tank but will make win now moves, that will happen the moment these guys show even an inkling of hope.

[PushDaRock]

that's just three guys. If the rest of the team is Gradey Dicks and Agbajis, that's going to be a horrible team. Scottie isn't good enough to lift a gleague roster. With Poeltl and Kelly, it gets a little harder since these guys are solid vets but even then, i don't think we're too far off. If Poeltl misses a few weeks, the team will plummet because we don't have any sort of replacement for him.

Are you not expecting improvement from all 3 of them? Scottie, RJ and IQ would have to be having incredibly disappointing seasons if they're all healthy and we are winning under 20 games no matter how horrific the rest of the roster is. There isn't a world where those 3 exceed expectations and we suck this badly.

Even if they didn't improve at all, if you take the Toronto numbers from RJ and IQ, they averaged 22 and 19 ppg while Scottie was at 20 a game. That's 61 ppg on slightly above efficiency between them. You would need McDaniels level production from the rest of the roster to lose that many games.

They will improve yes...But the NBA as a whole there are so many deeper teams than us....If you look at it i can say we were a better team to start the season last year...

OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder vs Barrett/IQ/Olynyk/Brown

You can make an argument that in terms of winning games that the 4 we had are really sim to the 4 we traded for in terms of overall talent...So if the team with OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder only got you 15-20 or so wins why is it different to say we will be in a very sim position come next season?...

The guys won't improve that much to make a 20-25 win team to take a leap to 40-45 win team....And we will not upgrade in the offseason enough to make that leap either....We will prolly do the opposite and trade some of the vets we have for draft picks/young talent.

We were a poor team with a all NBA All star level player in Siakam and one of the best if not the best 2 way player in the league in OG.... I like IQ/Barrett but they are still not on the level of them 2 just yet....And we lost majority of games last year which is why we traded everyone and started fresh.

What's your definition of tanking? Is winning 30-35 games tanking?

[OakleyDokely]

I find it funny when people say Masai won't tank, when he's tanked in two of the last four seasons, and one of those tanks landed us Scottie.

If the team is out of it by the deadline, he likely does what he did this year.

The draft lottery didn't work out for them this year, but maybe it does next year. Can't really control those lottery balls, especially with the flattened odds. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. That's what happens when you rely on luck.

[PushDaRock]

24/25 Roster:

Guaranteed Salaries
RJ Barrett
Bruce Brown - TO
Jakob Poeltl
Kelly Olynyk
Chris Boucher
Scottie Barnes
Gradey Dick
Jalen McDaniels
Ochai Agbaji
Javon Freeman-Liberty
D.J. Carton - Two Way
Mouhamadou Gueye - Two Way
Pick 19
Pick 31

Free Agents
Immanuel Quickley - RFA
Gary Trent Jr. - UFA
Jordan Nwora - UFA
Malik Williams - UFA
Garrett Temple - UFA

Let's say that both Quickley and Temple are back that puts at 14 roster spots. Going into 24/25 season. Brown could be traded for a player and a future pick. It's really hard for me to see this group be good enough as they are constructed. Seems like a 10-12 seeded team in the East. The team needs more shooting, more guard play and vertical spacing. So anyone thinking that this roster should be a Play-In team or even a low seed playoff team next year is out to lunch. They need so much more to get to that point.

As constructed, most likely you're looking at a team that is contending for the 10 spot to get in the play-in, but you're more looking at internal improvement from the core young players rather than records. If they end up not in the play-in but getting a top 10 pick to add to an improved Scottie, RJ, IQ and Gradey, you're happy with that result.

[DG88]

I find it funny when people say Masai won't tank, when he's tanked in two of the last four seasons, and one of those tanks landed us Scottie.

If the team is out of it by the deadline, he likely does what he did this year.

The draft lottery didn't work out for them this year, but maybe it does next year. Can't really control those lottery balls. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. That's what happens when you rely on luck.

If we end up a 10-12 seed next year, which is very possible with the current roster, we should have a lottery pick between 6-12. As you stated with how the lottery odds have changed any team could move up or down. So we don't have to be terribad to get lucky and move into the top 4.

[Johnny Bball]

Some people here just never will get it.

[DG88]

24/25 Roster:

Guaranteed Salaries
RJ Barrett
Bruce Brown - TO
Jakob Poeltl
Kelly Olynyk
Chris Boucher
Scottie Barnes
Gradey Dick
Jalen McDaniels
Ochai Agbaji
Javon Freeman-Liberty
D.J. Carton - Two Way
Mouhamadou Gueye - Two Way
Pick 19
Pick 31

Free Agents
Immanuel Quickley - RFA
Gary Trent Jr. - UFA
Jordan Nwora - UFA
Malik Williams - UFA
Garrett Temple - UFA

Let's say that both Quickley and Temple are back that puts at 14 roster spots. Going into 24/25 season. Brown could be traded for a player and a future pick. It's really hard for me to see this group be good enough as they are constructed. Seems like a 10-12 seeded team in the East. The team needs more shooting, more guard play and vertical spacing. So anyone thinking that this roster should be a Play-In team or even a low seed playoff team next year is out to lunch. They need so much more to get to that point.

As constructed, most likely you're looking at a team that is contending for the 10 spot to get in the play-in, but you're more looking at internal improvement from the core young players rather than records. If they end up not in the play-in but getting a top 10 pick to add to an improved Scottie, RJ, IQ and Gradey, you're happy with that result.

Pretty much what my expectations are for next year. If the team isn't close to being competitive guys with have extended rest days to help our draft positioning.

[Clutch0z24]

Are you not expecting improvement from all 3 of them? Scottie, RJ and IQ would have to be having incredibly disappointing seasons if they're all healthy and we are winning under 20 games no matter how horrific the rest of the roster is. There isn't a world where those 3 exceed expectations and we suck this badly.

Even if they didn't improve at all, if you take the Toronto numbers from RJ and IQ, they averaged 22 and 19 ppg while Scottie was at 20 a game. That's 61 ppg on slightly above efficiency between them. You would need McDaniels level production from the rest of the roster to lose that many games.

They will improve yes...But the NBA as a whole there are so many deeper teams than us....If you look at it i can say we were a better team to start the season last year...

OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder vs Barrett/IQ/Olynyk/Brown

You can make an argument that in terms of winning games that the 4 we had are really sim to the 4 we traded for in terms of overall talent...So if the team with OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder only got you 15-20 or so wins why is it different to say we will be in a very sim position come next season?...

The guys won't improve that much to make a 20-25 win team to take a leap to 40-45 win team....And we will not upgrade in the offseason enough to make that leap either....We will prolly do the opposite and trade some of the vets we have for draft picks/young talent.

We were a poor team with a all NBA All star level player in Siakam and one of the best if not the best 2 way player in the league in OG.... I like IQ/Barrett but they are still not on the level of them 2 just yet....And we lost majority of games last year which is why we traded everyone and started fresh.

What's your definition of tanking? Is winning 30-35 games tanking?

I am not defining tanking....I just think we lack the NBA talent and an overall team to even think about being competitive...We are in the process of rebuilding atm...We got a decent young core in BBQ/Dick with Agbaji being added to the mix...But we are far away from being a winning ball club....

Even if you don't define it as "Tanking" we will just be a bad team by not having enough talent...Will we be the worst team in the league? prolly not but will we be in the running for the top 3 picks in the draft next year...100 percent...

We just lack talent and coaching...Barnes/IQ/Barrett/Dick all being good building blocks to the future but they are ways away from being a .500 ball club...

If OG/Siakam/Barnes could not be a .500 team this team won't be.

That is why we need a few good draft picks to go our way and add another Star to the team...Trading/Free agency is bleak cause we lack assets since our only assets are BBQ/Dick atm...

[Merit]

it is about continuous growth. if you get a very talented player(s) with high draft picks, they would be at worse a high end contributor on the bench, which we don't have even right now.

so to say not to grow our team with high end draft picks with BBQ going into their primes would be rediculous thing to suggest. talent is talent.

that being said, Raptors don't have these high end draft picks this year. lol

Nobody is opposed to getting more high end talent through the draft. We are discussing tanking though and when I think of a tanking, it's putting out dumpster fire rosters like we did the last 20 games of the season but for the entire year. What's the realistic path to doing that for the entire season while having Scottie, RJ and IQ on the roster?

They would have to trade Poeltl.

-start Olynyk, defense becomes terrible

-stay on development path with minutes for Dick, Agbaji, #19, #31

IQ/RJ/Barnes aren’t good enough to carry the team above. I’m not even sure IQ or Barrett ever top out above good role player. There’s a good chance Barnes tops out at 2nd option level.

What probably should be done: see how Barnes/IQ/Barrett look for the first 20 games. If 2 of them have made a leap then stay the course. If it looks like they’ve improved (but not enough to carry this team) then pull the plug early (trade Poeltl, the only thing holding the defense together) and flip to tank mode.

Give Barnes and IQ a chance to prove themselves early in the season but pull the rip cord if it’s not going well.

And that’s what I mean by stealth tank. If we’re killing it developmentally and we hit two home runs in the draft, then of course we try and win.

Brown and Boucher and McDaniels are all salary cap and trade fodder. I’d like to see us get some 2025 picks for our trouble. The spurs could definitely use Bruce. The thunder could definitely use Jak. I, like you, am willing to punt next season if it means we develop our guys and grow. All I want to see is us being too good to tank towards the end of the season as we start to gel.

[LoveMyRaps]

I find it funny when people say Masai won't tank, when he's tanked in two of the last four seasons, and one of those tanks landed us Scottie.

If the team is out of it by the deadline, he likely does what he did this year.

The draft lottery didn't work out for them this year, but maybe it does next year. Can't really control those lottery balls. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. That's what happens when you rely on luck.

Grizzlies will be better with Ja next year.
Spurs might acquire Trae - and Wemby is gonna turn into a superstar next year - I'm fairly confident they'll be better than us.

Hornets will have LaMelo, Bridges, & Miller. I think they're in the same tier as the Raps.

I just need the Raps to be in the bottom 6. At worst that would ensure us a top 10 pick and that would be huge!

[ConSarnit]

Nobody is opposed to getting more high end talent through the draft. We are discussing tanking though and when I think of a tanking, it's putting out dumpster fire rosters like we did the last 20 games of the season but for the entire year. What's the realistic path to doing that for the entire season while having Scottie, RJ and IQ on the roster?

They would have to trade Poeltl.

-start Olynyk, defense becomes terrible

-stay on development path with minutes for Dick, Agbaji, #19, #31

IQ/RJ/Barnes aren’t good enough to carry the team above. I’m not even sure IQ or Barrett ever top out above good role player. There’s a good chance Barnes tops out at 2nd option level.

What probably should be done: see how Barnes/IQ/Barrett look for the first 20 games. If 2 of them have made a leap then stay the course. If it looks like they’ve improved (but not enough to carry this team) then pull the plug early (trade Poeltl, the only thing holding the defense together) and flip to tank mode.

Give Barnes and IQ a chance to prove themselves early in the season but pull the rip cord if it’s not going well.

And that’s what I mean by stealth tank. If we’re killing it developmentally and we hit two home runs in the draft, then of course we try and win.

Brown and Boucher and McDaniels are all salary cap and trade fodder. I’d like to see us get some 2025 picks for our trouble. The spurs could definitely use Bruce. The thunder could definitely use Jak. I, like you, am willing to punt next season if it means we develop our guys and grow. All I want to see is us being too good to tank towards the end of the season as we start to gel.

Doesn’t this defeat the entire purpose of tanking?

[PushDaRock]

They will improve yes...But the NBA as a whole there are so many deeper teams than us....If you look at it i can say we were a better team to start the season last year...

OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder vs Barrett/IQ/Olynyk/Brown

You can make an argument that in terms of winning games that the 4 we had are really sim to the 4 we traded for in terms of overall talent...So if the team with OG/Siakam/Achiuwa/Schroder only got you 15-20 or so wins why is it different to say we will be in a very sim position come next season?...

The guys won't improve that much to make a 20-25 win team to take a leap to 40-45 win team....And we will not upgrade in the offseason enough to make that leap either....We will prolly do the opposite and trade some of the vets we have for draft picks/young talent.

We were a poor team with a all NBA All star level player in Siakam and one of the best if not the best 2 way player in the league in OG.... I like IQ/Barrett but they are still not on the level of them 2 just yet....And we lost majority of games last year which is why we traded everyone and started fresh.

What's your definition of tanking? Is winning 30-35 games tanking?

I am not defining tanking....I just think we lack the NBA talent and an overall team to even think about being competitive...We are in the process of rebuilding atm...We got a decent young core in BBQ/Dick with Agbaji being added to the mix...But we are far away from being a winning ball club....

Even if you don't define it as "Tanking" we will just be a bad team by not having enough talent...Will we be the worst team in the league? prolly not but will we be in the running for the top 3 picks in the draft next year...100 percent...

We just lack talent and coaching...Barnes/IQ/Barrett/Dick all being good building blocks to the future but they are ways away from being a .500 ball club...

If OG/Siakam/Barnes could not be a .500 team this team won't be.

That is why we need a few good draft picks to go our way and add another Star to the team...Trading/Free agency is bleak cause we lack assets since our only assets are BBQ/Dick atm...

Literally nobody is arguing against adding more talent to this roster as it obviously needs it. This team as constructed currently is obviously not a good team, it's a bad team. It's just not bad enough to bottom out which is what tanking is. There is 30-35 wins bad which imo is the current roster projection and then 15-20 wins bad to contend for a top 3 worst record, that's a massive gap between them. If we end up not in contention for the play-in at some point, we will pivot to a pseudo tank like we have done twice now. But, it still won't get us close to sub 20 wins most likely without a lot going wrong this season.