GT: There is a Game Today - Raps@Nets 7:30 EST

[JB7]

Perhaps "praise" is too strong, but preferring the Raptors current situation over Orlando's is definitely a stance. They have a potential star in Banchero, a few solid pieces all under 25, all their picks, cap room, and they're winning games - that's not a bad place to be.

First off, the East is crap. The fact that Orlando as currently constructed, was almost contending for the 3rd seed, does not speak well of the East.

But, with the 3rd seed a possibility, Magic then went and lost to the Rockets and Bucks (who had lost 6 of their last 8 games). They finish off against the Sixers and Bucks. Let's see if the can win some real games, where teams are trying.

As well as Orlando has played this year, driven by their D, I just don't like the construction of their roster. Looking a lot like the old Raps roster built around length and D, with no O.

I think I actually prefer the new young core for the Raps (Barnes, RJ, IQ & Dick) over the Magic (Banchero, Franz, Suggs, Black).

Magic are 18-22 on the road after loss to Bucks

Good Winning % on road is hallmark of a good team

How many of those 18 wins are against LEastern conference teams?

[JB7]

You guys obviously never watched Banchero play

Banchero = Barnes
Franz >> RJ
Sugg = IQ (considering defense)
Black > Dick

If you had to choose between Barnes and Banchero, to build a team around, who would you pick? For me its Barnes all the way.
I think RJ is at least equal to Franz, if not better.
With the way Suggs has improved on shooting, and his defense being far superior, I agree that is probably equal.
Have not really seen enough of Black to determine if he is better.

To me the big difference between the two cores is the Raps 4 are all potential shot makers, whereas funny enough, Suggs seems to have the best shooting percentage of their 4 now. In a league now built on offense, being able to hit shots trumps D.

Banchero has higher offensive upside than Barnes. Banchero's handle and quickness is at a different level than Barnes. While Barnes' vision is at a level that Banchero may not ever reach. Overall though, I expect Banchero's passing to close the gap to Barnes (70%), but Barnes' (lateral) quickness will likely never improve much (a physical trait that cannot be trained) - so Banchero has higher offensive upside as a #1 option than Barnes.

Banchero reminds me of a bigger Kenyon Martin with a 3pt shot.

Problem is Banchero definitely looks like a PF with a potential 3pt shot. Whereas Barnes can play almost any role. Can defend 1-5. Can operate as the PG on O, or post up if needed. In terms of handle and quickness, I don't think Banchero is on a different level. Barnes is a bit slower because he is processing more (PG mentality), while Banchero is just looking for his spots to attack.

In terms of types of players, Barnes could develop into a lesser version of Lebron, vs Banchero developing into a lesser version of Barkley. Who would you rather have as the #1 option on your team?

[Los_29]

If we tanked for 4 years and ended up with a Banchero/Suggs/Franz core then this forum would be a very depressing place and many people’s ideas of tanking would have changed dramatically.

Whether we like to admit it or not, that’s a bad outcome. OKC’s tank would’ve been a bad outcome as well had the Paul George trade not happened.

Yeah, I'm sure the entire board would be up in arms being 2 games out of 2nd place in the east, only the 2nd year after finishing 13th in the east, missing the playoffs, and having a 34-48 record.

Man some of the stuff you say is just baffling.

You can’t convince me that Banchero/Franz/Suggs is a championship core. I don’t even think the Magic made a bad decision to tank. It was time as Weltman waited way too long to break up a bad team. But what some people don’t understand is that it’s extremely rare for a tanking team to land a superstar caliber player. Rockets, Thunder, Magic, Pistons and Cavs are all teams that spent a lot of time in the lottery and none of them got a superstar. The problem is you can get good players in the draft like Banchero and Franz and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery.

Unless Banchero makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.

[bballsparkin]

If we tanked for 4 years and ended up with a Banchero/Suggs/Franz core then this forum would be a very depressing place and many people’s ideas of tanking would have changed dramatically.

Whether we like to admit it or not, that’s a bad outcome. OKC’s tank would’ve been a bad outcome as well had the Paul George trade not happened.

As opposed to the bright uplifting place this forum has been lately?

[brownbobcat]

First off, the East is crap. The fact that Orlando as currently constructed, was almost contending for the 3rd seed, does not speak well of the East.

Does Toronto not play in the East? This team tried and failed (badly) to even make the 8th seed.

But, with the 3rd seed a possibility, Magic then went and lost to the Rockets and Bucks (who had lost 6 of their last 8 games). They finish off against the Sixers and Bucks. Let's see if the can win some real games, where teams are trying.

As well as Orlando has played this year, driven by their D, I just don't like the construction of their roster. Looking a lot like the old Raps roster built around length and D, with no O.

I think I actually prefer the new young core for the Raps (Barnes, RJ, IQ & Dick) over the Magic (Banchero, Franz, Suggs, Black).

Every team loses games it shouldn't. I'm not calling Orlando a powerhouse, but if the comparison is Toronto - there's no contest when it comes to arguing the results. Long term, sure, I hope BBQ develops into a powerhouse, but this is a team sorely lacking in complementary young pieces.

[bballsparkin]

Orlando could have had Chet. Chet, Franz and Suggs would have me more excited than the team that they have.

[brownbobcat]

You can’t convince me that Banchero/Franz/Suggs is a championship core. I don’t even think the Magic made a bad decision to tank. It was time as Weltman waited way too long to break up a bad team. But what some people don’t understand is that it’s extremely rare for a tanking team to land a superstar caliber player. Rockets, Thunder, Magic, Pistons and Cavs are all teams that spent a lot of time in the lottery and none of them got a superstar. The problem is you can get good players in the draft like Banchero and Franz and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery.

Unless Banchero makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.

Who said anything about a championship core? Good luck trying to convince me Toronto has one.

We're talking about being a team that can put together a few 50-win seasons and trying to catch some breaks along the way. Anyone poo-pooing Orlando's achievements this year just because it's not a championship squad is reeking of sour grapes.

[NinjaBro]

If we tanked for 4 years and ended up with a Banchero/Suggs/Franz core then this forum would be a very depressing place and many people’s ideas of tanking would have changed dramatically.

Whether we like to admit it or not, that’s a bad outcome. OKC’s tank would’ve been a bad outcome as well had the Paul George trade not happened.

As opposed to the bright uplifting place this forum has been lately?

Orlando tanked for way more than 4 years. They were tanking when they traded us Ibaka for Terrence Ross and a 1st. That's like what a decade ago? Imagine tanking for a decade or more and have Banchero/Suggs and Franz to show for it. We tanked for a half season this year and this place has been a ghost town. Imagine this forum tanking for a decade led by TWO lord and savior DelAbott. TWO would be disbanded by year 2, max.

We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffen before it's too late! - PhilBlackson

[bballsparkin]

yeah Orlando has had some dark years. They did get Penny, Shaq and Howard through the draft so they've had some good years as well.

[brownbobcat]

Oh I’m not praising Toronto lol. Where’d I do that?

Perhaps "praise" is too strong, but preferring the Raptors current situation over Orlando's is definitely a stance. They have a potential star in Banchero, a few solid pieces all under 25, all their picks, cap room, and they're winning games - that's not a bad place to be.

All true but unless they make significant improvement this summer, I see them getting stuck.

Banchero isn’t an efficient first option. He needs to significantly improve or they need to find one.

I see them reaching a point like current Kings. No doubt they have time to address it or even avoid it

Everything said here applies to the Raptors, except that they're losing a lot more. Barnes isn't an efficient first option either, he's not consistently shown the requisite skillset or mentality.

[brownbobcat]

You guys obviously never watched Banchero play

Banchero = Barnes
Franz > RJ
Sugg = IQ (considering defense)
Black > Dick

I'm happy with Barnes, but Banchero is right there with him in terms of potential. Not sure if either will end up being a top-10 player, but it's still super early. Suggs is going to be intriguing, I think his absolute floor at this point is Marcus Smart and he could reach the level of someone like say, Jrue Holiday. The thing about Franz and all these guys is that they're only 22, it's silly to put a cap on them now.

[Raps in 4]

You guys obviously never watched Banchero play

Banchero = Barnes
Franz > RJ
Sugg = IQ (considering defense)
Black > Dick

Paolo doesn't play defence, and he's not really a better scorer. He's obviously a year younger, so it's unfair to compare them, but if we are comparing them, Barnes is a much better player right now.

Black is also not better than Dick.

I agree that Orlando's situation is better than ours simply because they're younger and they own all their picks.

[DelAbbot]

If we tanked for 4 years and ended up with a Banchero/Suggs/Franz core then this forum would be a very depressing place and many people’s ideas of tanking would have changed dramatically.

Whether we like to admit it or not, that’s a bad outcome. OKC’s tank would’ve been a bad outcome as well had the Paul George trade not happened.

As opposed to the bright uplifting place this forum has been lately?

Orlando tanked for way more than 4 years. They were tanking when they traded us Ibaka for Terrence Ross and a 1st. That's like what a decade ago? Imagine tanking for a decade or more and have Banchero/Suggs and Franz to show for it. We tanked for a half season this year and this place has been a ghost town. Imagine this forum tanking for a decade led by TWO lord and savior DelAbott. TWO would be disbanded by year 2, max.

We need to trade Siakam for AJ Griffen before it's too late! - PhilBlackson

I am the TWO lord? That's 720 right? I am the TWO peon

[DelAbbot]

You guys obviously never watched Banchero play

Banchero = Barnes
Franz > RJ
Sugg = IQ (considering defense)
Black > Dick

Paolo doesn't play defence, and he's not really a better scorer. He's obviously a year younger, so it's unfair to compare them, but if we are comparing them, Barnes is a much better player right now.

Black is also not better than Dick.

I agree that Orlando's situation is better than ours simply because they're younger and they own all their picks.

Barnes' offensive game is mostly based on his length and physicality (3pt shot is improving though).

Paolo's offensive game is much more based on his quickness, length, strength and handle - that profile has a much higher ceiling when it comes to scoring.

So yes Barnes is better today overall (due to his passing + defense) but as a #1 option, Paolo has much higher upside.

[C_Money]

Perhaps "praise" is too strong, but preferring the Raptors current situation over Orlando's is definitely a stance. They have a potential star in Banchero, a few solid pieces all under 25, all their picks, cap room, and they're winning games - that's not a bad place to be.

All true but unless they make significant improvement this summer, I see them getting stuck.

Banchero isn’t an efficient first option. He needs to significantly improve or they need to find one.

I see them reaching a point like current Kings. No doubt they have time to address it or even avoid it

Everything said here applies to the Raptors, except that they're losing a lot more. Barnes isn't an efficient first option either, he's not consistently shown the requisite skillset or mentality.

It would not surprise me if Quickley and Barrett average more PPG than Scottie next year.

[ArthurVandelay]

Perhaps "praise" is too strong, but preferring the Raptors current situation over Orlando's is definitely a stance. They have a potential star in Banchero, a few solid pieces all under 25, all their picks, cap room, and they're winning games - that's not a bad place to be.

All true but unless they make significant improvement this summer, I see them getting stuck.

Banchero isn’t an efficient first option. He needs to significantly improve or they need to find one.

I see them reaching a point like current Kings. No doubt they have time to address it or even avoid it

Everything said here applies to the Raptors, except that they're losing a lot more. Barnes isn't an efficient first option either, he's not consistently shown the requisite skillset or mentality.

That has no relevance on MY preference

I prefer the Raptors core than Orlando core. The Raptors collective core of players has a higher ceiling, imo

[Scase]

If we tanked for 4 years and ended up with a Banchero/Suggs/Franz core then this forum would be a very depressing place and many people’s ideas of tanking would have changed dramatically.

Whether we like to admit it or not, that’s a bad outcome. OKC’s tank would’ve been a bad outcome as well had the Paul George trade not happened.

Yeah, I'm sure the entire board would be up in arms being 2 games out of 2nd place in the east, only the 2nd year after finishing 13th in the east, missing the playoffs, and having a 34-48 record.

Man some of the stuff you say is just baffling.

You can’t convince me that Banchero/Franz/Suggs is a championship core. I don’t even think the Magic made a bad decision to tank. It was time as Weltman waited way too long to break up a bad team. But what some people don’t understand is that it’s extremely rare for a tanking team to land a superstar caliber player. Rockets, Thunder, Magic, Pistons and Cavs are all teams that spent a lot of time in the lottery and none of them got a superstar. The problem is you can get good players in the draft like Banchero and Franz and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery.

Unless Banchero makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.

Who said anything about a championship core? They are literally about to make the playoffs for the first time since they started a rebuild, you only said this place would be depressing if that is what we had. And I absolutely disagree, people were singing massive praises for our team when we won 48 games post Tampa and had high hopes for the future. And you think they would be LESS happy if we were 2 games out of 2nd in the east after not making the playoffs for 4 years?

I mean christ, people were hyped when we made the PLAY IN.

Allow me to flip your post on you :

You can't convince me that RJ/IQ/Barnes is a championship core either. Banchero/Franz/Suggs are all in years 2/3/3. Our core are in years 3/5/4, I would put my money on the group of younger players with comparable skill levels, over the older ones. Masai took too long to break up a bad team. You can get good players in the draft like RJ and IQ and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery?

Unless Scottie makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.


Literally all of your criticisms of the magic can easily be cast right back at the Raps with almost a 1:1 comparison. The only difference is that I think Scottie has a higher ceiling than Paolo. Franz is younger and a better 2 way player than RJ, and IQ is to offence, what Suggs is to defence.

I would happily do a 1:1 trade of RJ for Franz. You know who wouldn't? The Magic.

[vulture]

Quickly is apparently pretty good.

I’ve really liked his growth as a playmaker and high volume pull up shooter.
I can see MIP for him next season if the team improves.

[Mikistan]

Quickly is apparently pretty good.

I’ve really liked his growth as a playmaker and high volume pull up shooter.
I can see MIP for him next season if the team improves.

What kind of possessions can he win for us on the defensive end? Does he have upside there?

Otherwise we need to figure out if his offensive impact is big enough to overcome no defensive impact

Lowry, Ibaka, Gasol, kawhi, Danny, norm, all gave you swing potential both ways
Guys like demar, Jose were always limited in their potential impact to win

[JB7]

Yeah, I'm sure the entire board would be up in arms being 2 games out of 2nd place in the east, only the 2nd year after finishing 13th in the east, missing the playoffs, and having a 34-48 record.

Man some of the stuff you say is just baffling.

You can’t convince me that Banchero/Franz/Suggs is a championship core. I don’t even think the Magic made a bad decision to tank. It was time as Weltman waited way too long to break up a bad team. But what some people don’t understand is that it’s extremely rare for a tanking team to land a superstar caliber player. Rockets, Thunder, Magic, Pistons and Cavs are all teams that spent a lot of time in the lottery and none of them got a superstar. The problem is you can get good players in the draft like Banchero and Franz and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery.

Unless Banchero makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.

Who said anything about a championship core? They are literally about to make the playoffs for the first time since they started a rebuild, you only said this place would be depressing if that is what we had. And I absolutely disagree, people were singing massive praises for our team when we won 48 games post Tampa and had high hopes for the future. And you think they would be LESS happy if we were 2 games out of 2nd in the east after not making the playoffs for 4 years?

I mean christ, people were hyped when we made the PLAY IN.

Allow me to flip your post on you :

You can't convince me that RJ/IQ/Barnes is a championship core either. Banchero/Franz/Suggs are all in years 2/3/3. Our core are in years 3/5/4, I would put my money on the group of younger players with comparable skill levels, over the older ones. Masai took too long to break up a bad team. You can get good players in the draft like RJ and IQ and it is enough to lift that team out of the lottery?

Unless Scottie makes incredible improvements in his game then he’s not taking that team anywhere.


Literally all of your criticisms of the magic can easily be cast right back at the Raps with almost a 1:1 comparison. The only difference is that I think Scottie has a higher ceiling than Paolo. Franz is younger and a better 2 way player than RJ, and IQ is to offence, what Suggs is to defence.

I would happily do a 1:1 trade of RJ for Franz. You know who wouldn't? The Magic.

What I like about the Raps young core over the Magic’s is the Raps core are all different and yet complementary players. RJ is great at driving to the basket and finishing around it, which is needed to get the D to back off the teams shooters. He can also hit the open 3. IQ has got the PG duties handled and is a knockdown shooter. Dick is another lights out shooter, and doesn’t demand the ball, while seeking out the open spaces to score. And Barnes can pretty much do anything out on the floor, while primarily looking to create for his teammates.

For the Magic, both Franz and Banchero seem to have similar skill sets, and it becomes a matter of each taking their turn. Even the backcourt of Black and Suggs both are very similar - lengthy defenders that are not great scorers. And none of them are knockdown shooters.

It’s also hard to build a core that you can’t rely on to make shots in the clutch. Raps fans know that all too well from the last few seasons.

It is much easier to find defensive players that can be substituted in for key possessions, then it is to develop clutch scoring in players that have just not had that ability throughout their careers.