OT: Leafs/NHL Thread

[ATLTimekeeper]

Dubas is the last guy they should be firing. His moves have worked out perfectly, especially adding ROR/Acciari/Schenn and obviously Knies was his guy too. They've squeezed that cap to absolute limit.

You have to look at the big picture for his term, not just the end of the line moves that may or may not work. He took over in 2017, so in 5 drafts he has one total drafted player on this current team, and that guy has played 6 NHL games.

He's had two other draft picks have consistent roles in the NHL, Rasmus Sandin, who he had to sell at the deadline because he was capped out, and Sean Durzi, who was packaged with a first for Jake Muzzin. Their cap is always sweaty. They're constantly looking for goaltenders, and scrounging the bargain bin for answers.

This team that he's finally assembled resembles the successful archetypes for playoff teams that he's resisted in his time, by biasing towards smaller players, everything off the rush offense that would get shut down in the first round every year. He wasted good years off their core, who are primed to get even more expensive. Most of his deadline deals in the past flopped. The hometown vets he brought in to babysit were all washed. The Kadri trade was a disaster. They need more than a first round win to re-up.

1000% Agree to disagree. Dubas definitely is not perfect but if you're really looking at the bigger picture, which you're paradoxically not doing lol, there's way more good there.

I'm well aware of Kyles' foibles and none of what you've said has moved me at all. He's constantly built 100 pt teams, clearly learned from his mistakes in terms of roster building, and he can't be faulted for a league with an asinine playoff system and a cap that hasn't gone up in some time. Though the team certainly deserves lots of sht for the playoff failures, particularly against the Habs and Jackets.

You're right that he's constantly scrounging but he's good at it. And though he's lost some trades, he's won a sht-ton of them too.

It's not like the pipeline is bare either. There's Robertson, Niemala, Minten and you gotta hope Amirov recovers from his medical issues. The NHL draft is a crapshoot and though they don't have the strongest system, I think you'll see some of the guys from his past few drafts start to break through in the next few years.

Otherwise, he's built a damn good team and I think his ability to learn from his mistakes is a good trait. I think the majority of smart Leaf fans know he's a good GM.

The big picture isn't looking forward to exciting prospects who haven't made it but accepting that most of his prospects haven't made it and they've thrown picks away for vets that haven't moved the needle at all.

The majority of smart Leaf fans are happy with a GM that takes a progressive approach, but if the results are one playoff round win, cap hell and a questionable prospect pool it's time to look at other smart GMs. What's best about the team was inherited, the best picks made and championed by other people in the organization long gone. If the draft is a crapshoot than what's the return on prospects/picks traded for 'non-crap shoot' talent?

[JShuttlesworth]

The Leafs would have beat the Bulls, I have no doubt

[MoneyBall]

The Leafs would have beat the Bulls, I have no doubt

In a fist fight, maybe.

[canz55]

The Leafs and Jays are providing a wonderful refuge from Raptors basketball.

I can't remember a time when I've cared less about an offseason in all the years I've been a fan.

[Merit]

wtf they won....I turned it off at 1-4

I actually think they can make a deep playoff run as long as they get out of the 1st round, I said this last season after they lost in game 7.

I turned it off too. I'm even in southwest Florida and considered driving 3 hours to the game. Wow.

I lived in Naples for a bit. You missed an awesome game.

[Psubs]

He finally hit on a goalie. Matt Murray should not play another game in net for the Leafs. Woll deserves the backup roll next year.

NJ got slaughtered 5-1 and 5-1 in the 1st 2 games vs NYR and switched to 5th round pick, 22 year old Akira Schmid and he's stepped up for wins in Game 3 and 4.

Samsanov has shown that he can give this high powered team a chance to win and I hope he gets even hotter next round vs the Bruins. Sucks that they have to play the team with the best record in the 2nd round.

[Brinbe]

You have to look at the big picture for his term, not just the end of the line moves that may or may not work. He took over in 2017, so in 5 drafts he has one total drafted player on this current team, and that guy has played 6 NHL games.

He's had two other draft picks have consistent roles in the NHL, Rasmus Sandin, who he had to sell at the deadline because he was capped out, and Sean Durzi, who was packaged with a first for Jake Muzzin. Their cap is always sweaty. They're constantly looking for goaltenders, and scrounging the bargain bin for answers.

This team that he's finally assembled resembles the successful archetypes for playoff teams that he's resisted in his time, by biasing towards smaller players, everything off the rush offense that would get shut down in the first round every year. He wasted good years off their core, who are primed to get even more expensive. Most of his deadline deals in the past flopped. The hometown vets he brought in to babysit were all washed. The Kadri trade was a disaster. They need more than a first round win to re-up.

1000% Agree to disagree. Dubas definitely is not perfect but if you're really looking at the bigger picture, which you're paradoxically not doing lol, there's way more good there.

I'm well aware of Kyles' foibles and none of what you've said has moved me at all. He's constantly built 100 pt teams, clearly learned from his mistakes in terms of roster building, and he can't be faulted for a league with an asinine playoff system and a cap that hasn't gone up in some time. Though the team certainly deserves lots of sht for the playoff failures, particularly against the Habs and Jackets.

You're right that he's constantly scrounging but he's good at it. And though he's lost some trades, he's won a sht-ton of them too.

It's not like the pipeline is bare either. There's Robertson, Niemala, Minten and you gotta hope Amirov recovers from his medical issues. The NHL draft is a crapshoot and though they don't have the strongest system, I think you'll see some of the guys from his past few drafts start to break through in the next few years.

Otherwise, he's built a damn good team and I think his ability to learn from his mistakes is a good trait. I think the majority of smart Leaf fans know he's a good GM.

The big picture isn't looking forward to exciting prospects who haven't made it but accepting that most of his prospects haven't made it and they've thrown picks away for vets that haven't moved the needle at all.

The majority of smart Leaf fans are happy with a GM that takes a progressive approach, but if the results are one playoff round win, cap hell and a questionable prospect pool it's time to look at other smart GMs. What's best about the team was inherited, the best picks made and championed by other people in the organization long gone. If the draft is a crapshoot than what's the return on prospects/picks traded for 'non-crap shoot' talent?

Again, I don't think he's perfect or ever claimed him to be, but the bigger picture, at least to me, is that they look set to remain a really good team for the foreseeable future even with the big extensions coming their way because Dubas is pretty good at filling in the holes around his stars. I trust in his process, decision-making and ability to find talent. I accept that others don't agree with that.

I really think this conversation about his prospects starts to look a lot different in a year or two when his current guys in the pipeline start landing on the roster in bigger roles. Knies is already a keeper, we'll see if Robertson can break through but I think there's enough there that the cupboard isn't empty as Matthews/Marner/Nylander age further into their primes. At the end of the day, that core (and goaltending) will be what determines how far this team gets.

And even if he doesn't strike gold with every trade or draft pick, he's shown that he can learn from his previous mistakes which is a huge quality in a GM. And to his credit, he has done enough to constantly build out very good teams. He gets treated as if he's some bum when this might be one of the best ever Leaf teams assembled.

You can disagree with that, but that's how I see it. The grass isn't always greener.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Well, like I said, he assembled this team with the best players already in place. He adjusted, or was forced to concede. Doesn't really matter to me other than he wasted opportunities. 9 UFAs on this roster with not much to spend and Matthews/Nylanders UFA year just one season away. Their starting goalie is RFA. There are 5 total picks in the first 4 rounds of the next 3 seasons. He's paid through the nose just to build this team, so I don't mind holding him accountable for the playoffs this year.

[HiJiNX]

Looks like the Leafs finally got over their playoff jitters. Guess that playoff experience is a thing after all. They’re not playing scared or soft. There’s a grit to their play that they’ve lacked in previous years. They’re going to advance. Tampa will give them a great game 5 effort but they’ll run out of gas in the third. It’ll be interesting to see if the Leafs are jittery to start game 5 or if they come out with a killer instinct.

Nah, they've played one good game against an old, wounded team. If I'm Shanahan I'm firing Dubas unless they make it to the semi-finals. Tampa is playing 3 D-men that don't belong in the NHL at all, they're best defenseman is playing hurt, their best player is playing hurt, and their goalie has been horrid. The quality of this Leafs team is so much better than any other iteration, too.

The comebacks are nice examples of togetherness, though. If they win this and somehow find their game against Boston they have a shot, but if they play like this the next 3 games they're just as likely to be golfing.

I’ll take your word for it as I haven’t followed hockey seriously since the collapse against the Bruins many years ago.

That said, these guys may not be outplaying Tampa every game but they’re not giving up on themselves either, which is where I think I was trying to go. They look like they believe in themselves this year.

[DreamTeam09]

Some points i'd like to disprove that I seen floated around here.

Dubas hasn't found any young players - That's simply not true. He found Bunting, he found Knies, he developed Timothy lilligren(even if he isn't playing right now, he was a key young contributor this szn) he developed and recouped a 1st for rasmus sandin. Our AHL team won the league a few yrs ago and have been a top team in the minors over his time

He's also hit on several cheap contracts - Jancrook - Kemph - and the entire 3rd n 4th lines basically, gotta throw bunting out there too, amazing value to contract ratio.

He's made some bad signings but quickly got rid of them without setting the team back too far, and this whole notion that he inherited the team so therefore he hasn't done much is ridiculous, one of the best GMs in sports imo.

[Psubs]

Some points i'd like to disprove that I seen floated around here.

Dubas hasn't found any young players - That's simply not true. He found Bunting, he found Knies, he developed Timothy lilligren(even if he isn't playing right now, he was a key young contributor this szn) he developed and recouped a 1st for rasmus sandin. Our AHL team won the league a few yrs ago and have been a top team in the minors over his time

He's also hit on several cheap contracts - Jancrook - Kemph - and the entire 3rd n 4th lines basically, gotta throw bunting out there too, amazing value to contract ratio.

He's made some bad signings but quickly got rid of them without setting the team back too far, and this whole notion that he inherited the team so therefore he hasn't done much is ridiculous, one of the best GMs in sports imo.

Should the Leafs win the Cup, even Kerfoot (still around) with the OT winner last night will be immortalized.

[Tha Cynic]

Playoff hockey will always be significantly more entertaining than the NBA playoffs.

First round is typically better but the NBA destroys the NHL in overall playoffs. The NHL become a snooze fest after peaking in the first round while the NBA gets better and better. Though the finals have been a bit boring in recent years with one team being way better.

[Tha Cynic]

Looks like the Leafs finally got over their playoff jitters. Guess that playoff experience is a thing after all. They’re not playing scared or soft. There’s a grit to their play that they’ve lacked in previous years. They’re going to advance. Tampa will give them a great game 5 effort but they’ll run out of gas in the third. It’ll be interesting to see if the Leafs are jittery to start game 5 or if they come out with a killer instinct.

Until they put the Lightening away, they haven't gotten over it lol. They were vastly outplayed in the last two games. Last time they had a team down 3-1, they lost in 7 a few season ago lol.

[YogurtProducer]

Dubas is the last guy they should be firing. His moves have worked out perfectly, especially adding ROR/Acciari/Schenn and obviously Knies was his guy too. They've squeezed that cap to absolute limit.

You have to look at the big picture for his term, not just the end of the line moves that may or may not work. He took over in 2017, so in 5 drafts he has one total drafted player on this current team, and that guy has played 6 NHL games.

He's had two other draft picks have consistent roles in the NHL, Rasmus Sandin, who he had to sell at the deadline because he was capped out, and Sean Durzi, who was packaged with a first for Jake Muzzin. Their cap is always sweaty. They're constantly looking for goaltenders, and scrounging the bargain bin for answers.

This team that he's finally assembled resembles the successful archetypes for playoff teams that he's resisted in his time, by biasing towards smaller players, everything off the rush offense that would get shut down in the first round every year. He wasted good years off their core, who are primed to get even more expensive. Most of his deadline deals in the past flopped. The hometown vets he brought in to babysit were all washed. The Kadri trade was a disaster. They need more than a first round win to re-up.

I mean saying he has "one drafted player" is kind of stretching the truth here.

Robertson got hurt, so he is technically on the team. Durzi got traded for Muzzin who is hurt. Sandin got traded due to the fact he was not happy in the 7th D slot (and he got traded for a future 1st and Gustaffson, who is hurt). Pretty much every player drafted in the 1st or 2nd round (where 90% of NHLers come from) has been traded away or is injured, except Knies.

Dubas did not have a first rounder in 2019 or 2021-2022 (2019 = Muzzin, 2020 = Amirov who has a brain tumor now, 2021 = Foligno which obviously did not pan out, and 2022 = traded back 14 spots to). Players in the NHL also take longer to get NHL ready. Outside first round picks, guys in the 2nd-7th rounds take year to make it to the show. In the 2022 draft, only 5 players have played a game. In 2021, only 18 players have (and only 5 after the 1st round). 2020 only has about 50 (did not feel like counting), and 2019 only has 75.

So from the last 4 years of drafts, only about 140 of those players have stepped on an NHL ice surface. Compare that the NBA where there have been 413 rookies despite the total # of players being well below half.

It is not even close to fair to question Dubas' drafts when he A) has not had draft picks in the ranges where NHLers generally are produced and B) outside of 2018, and 2019 slightly, it is not even reasonable to expect any players from the ranges we drafted to be ready to go.

[YogurtProducer]

Some points i'd like to disprove that I seen floated around here.

Dubas hasn't found any young players - That's simply not true. He found Bunting, he found Knies, he developed Timothy lilligren(even if he isn't playing right now, he was a key young contributor this szn) he developed and recouped a 1st for rasmus sandin. Our AHL team won the league a few yrs ago and have been a top team in the minors over his time

He's also hit on several cheap contracts - Jancrook - Kemph - and the entire 3rd n 4th lines basically, gotta throw bunting out there too, amazing value to contract ratio.

He's made some bad signings but quickly got rid of them without setting the team back too far, and this whole notion that he inherited the team so therefore he hasn't done much is ridiculous, one of the best GMs in sports imo.

Some people here say Masai inherited Colangelo's core, so that should tell you all you need to ignore people hahahah

[DreamTeam09]

Looks like the Leafs finally got over their playoff jitters. Guess that playoff experience is a thing after all. They’re not playing scared or soft. There’s a grit to their play that they’ve lacked in previous years. They’re going to advance. Tampa will give them a great game 5 effort but they’ll run out of gas in the third. It’ll be interesting to see if the Leafs are jittery to start game 5 or if they come out with a killer instinct.

Until they put the Lightening away, they haven't gotten over it lol. They were vastly outplayed in the last two games. Last time they had a team down 3-1, they lost in 7 a few season ago lol.

I don't buy the vastly outplayed. They played bad for a couple periods and were the significantly better team for the other periods.

[Tha Cynic]

Looks like the Leafs finally got over their playoff jitters. Guess that playoff experience is a thing after all. They’re not playing scared or soft. There’s a grit to their play that they’ve lacked in previous years. They’re going to advance. Tampa will give them a great game 5 effort but they’ll run out of gas in the third. It’ll be interesting to see if the Leafs are jittery to start game 5 or if they come out with a killer instinct.

Until they put the Lightening away, they haven't gotten over it lol. They were vastly outplayed in the last two games. Last time they had a team down 3-1, they lost in 7 a few season ago lol.

I don't buy the vastly outplayed. They played bad for a couple periods and were the significantly better team for the other periods.

I don't think they were better at all in overtime in game 3 and in game 4 they didn't really look a whole lot better. Their special teams helped them win. They did dominate the overtime in game 4 though.

But all this to say that this team seems to have trouble playing top gear for extended periods of time. Sometimes you watch them and wouldn't know it was the playoffs with the lack of urgency they play with.

[GQStylin]

Playoff hockey will always be significantly more entertaining than the NBA playoffs.

I agree. Of all the sports nothing is as crazy and exciting as NHL playoff hockey where upsets can happen at anytime and overtime hockey is simply the best, most heart pumping moments of sport that you can ever watch. What's more amazing than watching OT in the playoffs where its the next goal wins and it can last anywhere from a few seconds to several more periods worth of play?

NBA playoffs in comparison just isn't the same especially with the often crappy, biased reffing and I haven't watched it in years except for if the Raptors make the playoffs then I'll watch them. Otherwise NBA playoffs hold no interest for me.

[Dirk]

Explain the Leafs playoff run in Raptors terms.

[Potential]

Explain the Leafs playoff run in Raptors terms.

The 19-20 Raptors go up 3-1 over the washed Bucks with hopes of finally winning a playoff round after 6 consecutive 1st round exits and several historic choke jobs.