PG: 2nd longest losing streak in Raptors Hx

[Duffman100]

Look, I was fighting with GWS about me being part of team Masai as recently as just before the Thad trade. I turned on them after the Poeltl deal and non-trade of FVV.

You turned on them long before the Poeltl deal.

[JB7]

IQ/ ?
RJ/ Dick
?/ Ochai
Barnes/ Olynyk
Poeltl/ ?

Next season will completely be dependent on how we fill those question marks. I gave Ochai the benefit of the doubt that he'll be good enough to even be a rotational player lol.

IQ/ Lowry (they could easily sign Lowry as a veteran PG to support IQ's development)
RJ/ Dick
TM3, Herb or Wiggins/ Ochai (They could try to trade for Trey Murphy III or Herb Jones, with the pick assets they have acquired. Eventually NO has to make a decision on one of them, and Trey has one year left on his deal, before he needs to get paid. Worst case scenario is just don't pick up Bruce Brown's option, and trade McDaniels for Wiggins, absorbing Wiggins deal into the cap space the team has available)
Barnes/ Olynyk
Poeltl/ ? (Olynyk can back up both C and PF)

Depending on what trades the team is able to make or not make, they could also have 3 draft picks filling in spots on the roster, along with Boucher's last year, and maybe even a return of Temple on the vet minimum.

[Duffman100]

As I said in another post in this thread, I don't think there's anything wrong with having some skepticism about this FO. Their talent ID has been really questionable and I don't know who/what to attribute that to exactly because they're so opaque about everything they do.

They did the work to give themselves flexibility this offseason to radically reshape large portions of this team, but selling off is always the easy part. The follow-through is what matters. Can they successfully do it? Well, that's where everyone will feel differently I suppose. But if you don't think so that's fine, but none of us can really do anything about it either way. So repeating it a billion times from now until whenever is also a bit tiresome.

The front office definitely needs a look. Lots pf questionable personnel decisions and the choice they made for coach is sickening. It may be time for a front office shuffle but quality execs are hard to find

There's a lot of sharp basketball minds on this forum. No doubt ownership have a complete list of realgm possibilities for that inevitable day when they clean out the front office.

I know one specific one that I think would excel.

[Duffman100]

Yet some folks here would do all kinds of mental gymnastics to defend them. In their eyes, they can't do any wrong.

It's understandable. For some the championship brought them so much joy that they have associated their own positive identity with it and the FO that got us there. Any attack on the FO is perceived as an attack on their positive identity.

For me that's really simplifying it.

It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.

I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.

18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year

So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.

If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.

btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.

[Scase]

Did he? I don't remember that.

Yeah he mentioned it back in Jan after the trade, not before, memory was a bit off.

“The only thing that was important to me is that I was on a team that could play competitive basketball. As long as it's not like a team that’s really actively trying to tank is the thing for me,” Poeltl said following practice Thursday. “I want to play on a team that's trying to win every night.

It's one of the main reasons people saw his acquisition as a sign we were going all in, and now it definitely doesn't mesh with what we've pivoted to.

Ah interesting.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why I have continued to be very sour on the trade, and I think that TorontoBarneys suggestion would be best for both parties long term. As un-enthused as I am with the trade, I don't think Jak is a bad player, I just think his value is more evident on a contending or at the least a playoff team. Might not get us the best return, but maybe we can pry some picks/prospects from OKC for him, as they desperately need a real backup centre, which I think will become much more evident in the playoffs.

Works out for everyone, obviously OKC needs to agree, but I think it puts them in a much better position in the west, and wouldn't cost them much. Hell, we could even take back Bismack we'd still have a couple vet bigs, albeit not starting calibre, but we arent looking for that if we trade Jak anyways.

[Scase]

It's understandable. For some the championship brought them so much joy that they have associated their own positive identity with it and the FO that got us there. Any attack on the FO is perceived as an attack on their positive identity.

For me that's really simplifying it.

It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.

I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.

18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year

So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.

If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.

btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

[Duffman100]

For me that's really simplifying it.

It's not that the championship 'brought me joy" (which of course it did, it was amazing). It's that it showed me that they're a swing for the fences, make tough decisions, proven winner FO. And that FO cycles are different than coaching cycles, you give them longer ones. Especially proven winners.

I look at each FO cycle as 5-8 years. Personally, that's how I view it.

18-19 was the title
19-20 was the defend of that title
----
20-21 Tampa tank
21-22 48 wins and ROY
22-23 Disappointing bad year
23-24 Tear down year

So the way I see it, we're in year 3 or 4 of that 5-8 year cycle. Depending if the tank part of the season is part of that timeline.

If we're hitting year 5-6 and we're still very meh, yeah.. I'm on board with starting to talk about alternatives.

btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

[Scase]

btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes

I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.

[Duffman100]

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes

I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.

I'd put it at year 3 (with the tank as the reset year). Either way, that's what I'm saying wait until like year 6 to see the improvement. If we're on an upswing in the next 2 years, then cool. If not, yeah I'm on board with looking at alternatives in FO.

The problem is reactionary moves on FOs rarely pay off. When you actually look at it season over season, not a ton of time has passed. Even though it's felt like it has.

[manjusaka]

I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.

[Duffman100]

I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.

It's easy to say that, but what does that look like. Gasol and Ibaka aren't getting us anything. Lowry maybe gets us some assets? And then you're selling off FVV, Siakam, OG right after a finals run?

If Bubble doesn't happen and Siakam <5 feet % doesn't tank by 15%, we're in the finals again.

[Scase]

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes

I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.

I'd put it at year 3 (with the tank as the reset year). Either way, that's what I'm saying wait until like year 6 to see the improvement. If we're on an upswing in the next 2 years, then cool. If not, yeah I'm on board with looking at alternatives in FO.

The problem is reactionary moves on FOs rarely pay off. When you actually look at it season over season, not a ton of time has passed. Even though it's felt like it has.

I cant budge from it being year 4, Tampa should have been the sign to start the rebuild and they missed out on it. Poor evaluation or bad timing still counts.

I'm not saying to replace the FO as a knee jerk reaction, personally if we were to do that I think it would have had to be last year before they traded everyone away. As of now, my opinion on moving on from them is in a holding pattern pending what they do this off season. Double down and make moves to be a play in team next year, I think they should be replaced, keep going for an actual rebuild, I will give them a couple more years.

[Duffman100]

That year is not a hill I'm willing to die on, I just don't think it could have ever resulted in a chip. The Heat made it that far because they have Jimmy, not only a true #1 option, but a stellar playoff performer. Even so if it were a regular season I don't see us having the same success, but that's too much speculation for my tastes

I can give them a pass on that year, still puts us in year 4 though. And this is a pretty bad situation for year 4 IMO. Year 4 should be the upswing, not starting from scratch.

I'd put it at year 3 (with the tank as the reset year). Either way, that's what I'm saying wait until like year 6 to see the improvement. If we're on an upswing in the next 2 years, then cool. If not, yeah I'm on board with looking at alternatives in FO.

The problem is reactionary moves on FOs rarely pay off. When you actually look at it season over season, not a ton of time has passed. Even though it's felt like it has.

I cant budge from it being year 4, Tampa should have been the sign to start the rebuild and they missed out on it. Poor evaluation or bad timing still counts.

I'm not saying to replace the FO as a knee jerk reaction, personally if we were to do that I think it would have had to be last year before they traded everyone away. As of now, my opinion on moving on from them is in a holding pattern pending what they do this off season. Double down and make moves to be a play in team next year, I think they should be replaced, keep going for an actual rebuild, I will give them a couple more years.

If we draft top 6, 17, 31 and do win-now moves. Make the play-in and the playoffs with a young core, you'd still want them replaced?

Because that is a possibility for next season

[JB7]

I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.

It's easy to say that, but what does that look like. Gasol and Ibaka aren't getting us anything. Lowry maybe gets us some assets? And then you're selling off FVV, Siakam, OG right after a finals run?

If Bubble doesn't happen and Siakam <5 feet % doesn't tank by 15%, we're in the finals again.

To add to this, the year after Kawhi left was a year for the remaining players and management to prove the championship team was more than just Kawhi. There was no way they were stripping everything down in the year following the championship if only for this reason.

Masai's plan was to let Lowry, Gasol and Ibaka expire to pursue Giannis, if he hit FA. He didn't, because the Bucks managed to break through and win a chip, so Masai had to pivot.

[ArthurVandelay]

btw, if you want to follow this guidelines, Shapiro and Atkins should definitely be out.

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

I’d look at this season as the closing of another window, or start of another era.

2013-Championship-2020 was end of one era built around Lowry-DD, then Kawhi, and was a success.
Tampa tank kicked off another era built around Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes and ended with the OG trade, it was a relatively short-lived failure.
2024 starts the third era under Masai building around BBQ Dick and it’s to be determined.

I’m guessing Masai’s contract has 2-3 years left and if the Raptors aren’t a contender or a very exciting up and coming team at that point, time to seriously consider change.

[Duffman100]

I would say based on that, we would be in year 4 or 5. Defend the title year should have been evaluating for the future and with the plan starting in 20-21. We weren't going to win another chip without kawhi, so that's when planning should have begun.

Disagreed. That team was deep and still stacked. The east was wide open and it was the Heat that made it the finals. If Siakam didn't inexplicably crumble in that postseason, we could have easily made it to the finals. Once there anything can happen.

It's tough to gauge whether a tank season. But still that means were in season 4 of a 5-8 year window.

I’d look at this season as the closing of another window, or start of another era.

2013-Championship-2020 was end of one era built around Lowry-DD, then Kawhi, and was a success.
Tampa tank kicked off another era built around Siakam/FVV/OG/Barnes and ended with the OG trade, it was a relatively short-lived failure.
2024 starts the third era under Masai building around BBQ Dick and it’s to be determined.

I’m guessing Masai’s contract has 2-3 years left and if the Raptors aren’t a contender or a very exciting up and coming team at that point, time to seriously consider change.

Yup and I'm totally fine with that. It matches the timelines I generally have for front offices.

[manjusaka]

I had felt that we should hit the reset button right after we lost Kawhi. However this fan base just doesn’t like losing, it shows on this board. Most people won’t tolerate a OKC or Ainge style of rebuilding. So it lead us to the situation where we have now.

It's easy to say that, but what does that look like. Gasol and Ibaka aren't getting us anything. Lowry maybe gets us some assets? And then you're selling off FVV, Siakam, OG right after a finals run?

If Bubble doesn't happen and Siakam <5 feet % doesn't tank by 15%, we're in the finals again.

Yes that is exactly what I felt right after we lost Kawhi. I would only keep OG and fire sales. That team was good but old, the windows of winning was short, and not very high upside. So I would rather go through “the process” to get a center piece. I am a Raptors fan since day 1. There was a lot of up and down in our history. That tear down would be that bad compared to what we had after the VC trade or the Young Guns era. I had trust our current front office’s ability to draft. Things like drafting Hoffa over Iggy would not happen.

It is lucky that we have Scottie Barnes to build with right now. However we still need more assets to be competitive, I would not mind tanking the next season for development and another mid to high lottery pick. But you probably see it too during this losing streak, people just don’t like watching losing basketball. Most people will prefer start winning next season.

[manjusaka]

For the record, I wasn’t mad that we didn’t rebuild earlier. I totally see why they chose not to. After all it is about making money.

[Brinbe]

That 2019-2020 team was fantastic before covid hit. We were destroying teams, what are people even talking about in here?

Especially those first few months when we went on a terror of a run is not something I'd trade for anything. We played such good basketball in that time and they had a chip on their shoulder doing it without Kawhi. They'd def be in the mix to contend if the season didn't get wiped out till the bubble.

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The Tampa year was an obvious disappointment and their big fault was thinking that Baynes was an adequete starting big but it did lead to Barnes in the end.

They won the next year and Barnes was the ROTY.

Then the next year everything went to crap and the core pieces/coach were all plotting escapes. If you could find the real fault, it's Masai not pivoting immediately once it became clear that it was falling apart. But I think he acknowledged that fault/mistake and he's cleaned house now. Whether he's gonna be successful in this rebuild is still up for debate and again, I don't think people are wrong to be skeptical. But it's also too soon to say that it's definitely gonna be a failure.

[Duffman100]

That 2019-2020 team was fantastic before covid hit. We were destroying teams, what are people even talking about in here?

Especially those first few months when we went on a terror of a run is not something I'd trade for anything. We played such good basketball in that time and they had a chip on their shoulder doing it without Kawhi. They'd def be in the mix to contend if the season didn't get wiped out till the bubble.

Again, Siakam's <5ft % fell by like 15% in the bubble. Some crazy % like that. Nobody could have predicted he was going to mentally collapse.

If Siakam plays 50% better we make the finals against the Lakers. Even if we lose, I'd rather be in the finals again and have that fun than tearing the team down.