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Harry - I don't know exactly how these stats were compiled - but it at least seems to be applied fairly to all parties. They aren't like the stats from 82games.com, so there is less to poke at.

We all know Bargs is a weaker defender than he should be - that's never been in dispute. What HAS been in dispute is the stats that were provided may or may not have been solid - since not all stats are equal - and some of the more extreme comments or dismissals from both sides that were coming from people who only saw what they wanted to. The excuses made for one player and not another, etc... this is where the hissy fits come from.

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
My question wasn't about where it could be better, it was why did the exact same line-up drop pretty dramatically from one year to the next?

And, if Bosh-Bargnani-Calderon can't work together, why is there evidence that it has worked (at a point where Bargnani was less mature of a defender)?

A very good point you have raised.


I have no clue why the lineup changes so dramatically from one year to the next, on both ends of the floor. 7 point drop on offense, 10 point drop in defense. Some regression by Calderon and Parker on both ends, Moon regressing on defense? Smitch being a better coach than Triano? Bosh regression? Bargnani regression?

Any thoughts? Basically, if we want Bargnani to be a key part of the franchise, we need to understand why for such a large chunk of time (555 minutes) the Bargnani lineup was good on both ends of the floor in 2007-2008 despite him supposedly playing terribly, yet from all accounts he substantially IMPROVED from one season to the next, yet the lineup worsened.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated..

edit: or maybe the 208 and 555 minutes aren't representative, somehow.

Ripp wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
My question wasn't about where it could be better, it was why did the exact same line-up drop pretty dramatically from one year to the next?

And, if Bosh-Bargnani-Calderon can't work together, why is there evidence that it has worked (at a point where Bargnani was less mature of a defender)?

A very good point you have raised.

Code: Select all

2007-2008   Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh   555    1.16    1.06    +105
2008-2009   Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh   208    1.09    1.16     -32


I have no clue why the lineup changes so dramatically from one year to the next, on both ends of the floor. 7 point drop on offense, 10 point drop in defense. Some regression by Calderon and Parker on both ends, Moon regressing on defense? Smitch being a better coach than Triano? Bosh regression? Bargnani regression?

Any thoughts? Basically, if we want Bargnani to be a key part of the franchise, we need to understand why for such a large chunk of time (555 minutes) the Bargnani lineup was good on both ends of the floor in 2007-2008 despite him supposedly playing terribly, yet from all accounts he substantially IMPROVED from one season to the next, yet the lineup worsened.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated..

edit: or maybe the 208 and 555 minutes aren't representative, somehow.

Calderon, Parker and Moon all declined in effectiveness between the two seasons, so there's your answer.

Courtside wrote:Harry - I don't know exactly how these stats were compiled - but it at least seems to be applied fairly to all parties. They aren't like the stats from 82games.com, so there is less to poke at.

We all know Bargs is a weaker defender than he should be - that's never been in dispute. What HAS been in dispute is the stats that were provided may or may not have been solid - since not all stats are equal - and some of the more extreme comments or dismissals from both sides that were coming from people who only saw what they wanted to. The excuses made for one player and not another, etc... this is where the hissy fits come from.

Cool.

Also hissy fits is a funny phrase that should be used more. Sounds funny when you say it out loud, in part because I have no idea what a hissy is.

Ripp wrote:

ATLTimekeeper wrote:
My question wasn't about where it could be better, it was why did the exact same line-up drop pretty dramatically from one year to the next?

And, if Bosh-Bargnani-Calderon can't work together, why is there evidence that it has worked (at a point where Bargnani was less mature of a defender)?

A very good point you have raised.

Code: Select all

2007-2008   Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh   555    1.16    1.06    +105
2008-2009   Calderon-Parker-Moon-Bargnani-Bosh   208    1.09    1.16     -32


I have no clue why the lineup changes so dramatically from one year to the next, on both ends of the floor. 7 point drop on offense, 10 point drop in defense. Some regression by Calderon and Parker on both ends, Moon regressing on defense? Smitch being a better coach than Triano? Bosh regression? Bargnani regression?

Any thoughts? Basically, if we want Bargnani to be a key part of the franchise, we need to understand why for such a large chunk of time (555 minutes) the Bargnani lineup was good on both ends of the floor in 2007-2008 despite him supposedly playing terribly, yet from all accounts he substantially IMPROVED from one season to the next, yet the lineup worsened.

Any insight would be greatly appreciated..

edit: or maybe the 208 and 555 minutes aren't representative, somehow.

Nahhh, can't be that Smitch was actually getting on these guys about defense, can it? Nahhh, can't be. If this is not a statistically supported indictment of the current coach (and regime), I don't know what is.

_venom_ wrote:Only the absolute die hard Bargnani fans will find ways to flip these stats around and try to explain them. Any outside viewer of this team will be quick to point out that the biggest problem with the Raptors is at Starting C. Bargnani is a decent man to man post defender but he hardly provides any lane intimidation. He never gives a hard foul and almost all his blocks are straight up, never from the weakside. Then there's his complete lack of offensive rebounding and his pitiful defensive rebounding. This doesn't meant that Amir is the answer but he is a better option than Bargnani at this point in time. I desperately wanted the Raptors to go after Haywood at the deadline to put beside Bosh but of course common sense from our GM isn't expected.

Anyone looking at stats should try to look for context.

For instance, the Brendan Haywood Wizard teams never finished in the top 15 in DRating. They were also almost always near the bottom in defensive rebounding, which is the 5s "job", specifically. He gives hard fouls, he blocks shots, he rebounds well on both ends. He did all this alongside a solid rebounding, finesse 4.

The Raptors have been in the top half in defensive efficiency and been a top 5 defensive rebounding team with Rasho/Bargnani combo, who don't rebound well and don't offer weak-side blocks, don't give hard fouls or lane intimidation.

If all the blame is to go on one person for specific reasons, than what's the explanation for this?

Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

isyed wrote:Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

To be fair, he didn't technically post inaccurate information. He quoted someone else who, unwittingly I assume, was quoting information which was misleading only because the source lists positions different that most.

Now as to why he isn't here to talk about the point he was or was not trying to make, and how the reality is likely contrary to that point...that's his call. But it's not like he came in here lying or anything.

isyed wrote:Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

Think of it like HarryPalmer disappearing for a few months.

Fairview4Life wrote:

isyed wrote:Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

Think of it like HarryPalmer disappearing for a few months.

Lol, like when we were losing. Or winning. Or...I dunno, how does the theory go again?

Scott Carefoot wrote:Calderon, Parker and Moon all declined in effectiveness between the two seasons, so there's your answer.

7 point swing in offense, 10 point swing in defense is 17 points total. That is ginormous...like, from one of the best lineups in the league to one of the worst (obviously there are limitations to extrapolating so much from limited minutes, but you get the basic idea.)

Let's focus on defense alone. Does Calderon, Parker, and Moon's decline alone explain a 10 point swing in defense? That sounds very implausible, to me, especially since Bargnani supposedly improved defensively from one season to the next. Or did Bosh become a much worse defender from one season to the next?

Something doesn't quite add up here. The only other variable I can think of is coaching. Or perhaps I'm trying to extract too much information from the limited playing time data.

Harry Palmer wrote:

isyed wrote:Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

To be fair, he didn't technically post inaccurate information. He quoted someone else who, unwittingly I assume, was quoting information which was misleading only because the source lists positions different that most.

Now as to why he isn't here to talk about the point he was or was not trying to make, and how the reality is likely contrary to that point...that's his call. But it's not like he came in here lying or anything.

Fair enough. My apologies then...

Harry- i have question regarding this team for you. What moves do you think if happened could push this team into the top 5 teams. Regardless of how but would something like Iggy, Arenas and Dally with a resigned Amir be a good starting point, how about we gut the team to get someone like CP3 (highly Unlikely but still a financial struggling team might make the move)

Harry Palmer wrote:

Fairview4Life wrote:

isyed wrote:Why hasn't Dagger come back to reply back after posting the incorrect information about Bosh?

Dagger: Note to you, please don't go down for Bargs, we all know how it turned out with Hoffa!!

Think of it like HarryPalmer disappearing for a few months.

Lol, like when we were losing. Or winning. Or...I dunno, how does the theory go again?

I think it involves Bargnani, thus the analogy.

_venom_ wrote:Bargnani is a decent man to man post defender but he hardly provides any lane intimidation.

It doesn't help the Raptors when the whole team is "soft", no point in calling out Bargnani. Bargnani does try to do a good job of providing lane intimdation. How can you not consider stepping out of position and contest/alter shots consistently as attempting to provide that lane intimidation?

Then there's his complete lack of offensive rebounding and his pitiful defensive rebounding. This doesn't meant that Amir is the answer but he is a better option than Bargnani at this point in time.

Offensive rebounding? Bargnani sucks without question. Yes, Bargnani does suck at defensive rebounding too, but ALL Bargnani does is box out. People act as if ALL Bargnani does is stay in the paint and float, but he doesn't. Bargnani is constantly asked to help on the perimeter to trap on screens and hedge. You guys don't think that's a whole lot of energy require than he has to go back to the paint and box out? I question a lot of you guys. By no means is Bargnani an amazing defender, but he does give effort.

Fairview4Life wrote:

Harry Palmer wrote:I think it involves Bargnani, thus the analogy.

Oh, it gets confusing. I was told it WAS because of Bargs last year, when I was gone while he upped his scoring and we lost tons.

Then this year when he wasn't playing as well but we were winning, I was told it was because we were winning that I was absent.

So as I said, it gets confusing.

Anyways, I think if people know one thing about me around here, it's that I'm pretty much always willing to back up my arguments with words (and words and words) so it seems a silly theory to me. Especially when Bargs play was the kind I expect from him, or that last year I missed a glorious opportunity to review all the kazillion 'Anyone can out up numbers on a bad team' thing that had been thrown at me re: Gay so often, etc.

But, regardless, this time I``ve warned people I`m gonna be gone, so when I return I fully expect...to hear the same argument.

look at record...we ain't effective ANYWHERE!

nbajam wrote:Nahhh, can't be that Smitch was actually getting on these guys about defense, can it? Nahhh, can't be. If this is not a statistically supported indictment of the current coach (and regime), I don't know what is.

It really is a terrible shame that Smitch and Bargs didn't get along. That he managed to build a GOOD defensive lineup with Bargs playing major minutes is a significant accomplishment, and something Triano (or whoever the future head coach is) needs to figure out.

isyed wrote:
Fair enough. My apologies then...

Harry- i have question regarding this team for you. What moves do you think if happened could push this team into the top 5 teams. Regardless of how but would something like Iggy, Arenas and Dally with a resigned Amir be a good starting point, how about we gut the team to get someone like CP3 (highly Unlikely but still a financial struggling team might make the move)

If BC could somehow get CP3 without losing Bosh, I would be happy as anyone around here. I`d think we still need the right pieces to surround them, but that`s sooooooo much easier once you have the foundation in place.

Now, I say this thinking there`s not a hope in hell BC can pull that off, but if he does, he`ll have earned his rep as far as I`m concerned.

Undefeated wrote:

_venom_ wrote:Bargnani is a decent man to man post defender but he hardly provides any lane intimidation.

It doesn't help the Raptors when the whole team is "soft", no point in calling out Bargnani. Bargnani does try to do a good job of providing lane intimdation. How can you not consider stepping out of position and contest/alter shots consistently as attempting to provide that lane intimidation?

Then there's his complete lack of offensive rebounding and his pitiful defensive rebounding. This doesn't meant that Amir is the answer but he is a better option than Bargnani at this point in time.

Offensive rebounding? Bargnani sucks without question. Yes, Bargnani does suck at defensive rebounding too, but ALL Bargnani does is box out. People act as if ALL Bargnani does is stay in the paint and float, but he doesn't. Bargnani is constantly asked to help on the perimeter to trap on screens and hedge. You guys don't think that's a whole lot of energy require than he has to go back to the paint and box out? I question a lot of you guys. By no means is Bargnani an amazing defender, but he does give effort.

Who cares about effort ? (and, at that, Barg's effort is feeble to say the least.)... it's results that count.

Amir seems to succeed quite well; and this is most often with Jose as the 1st level of perimeter defense.

I also agree that Andrea's 1on1 defense is actually pretty good, his huge weakness is help defense and rotation

It doesn't seem like he thinks ahead and anticipates, it shows in his offense as well.