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bluerap23 wrote:

Dalek wrote:Secure a good coach
Darko has not proven anything other than increasing our ball movement and keeping us a top transition offense team. This team won a title built on defense, and drafted Scottie as a strong defensive wing, and brought guys over from the tough Knick's system. I say we pitch Coach Bud or look at the coaching market this season again. Let's not be afraid to pivot.

I hated a lot of what I saw from Darko, BUT he did a great job with player development, which is what he is here for. We aren't trying to win for real right now so I am good with bringing Darko back. It will likely be another 2 seasons before we consider bringing in a Bud-type. I also legit think there is a chance that the next HC of the Raptors will be Kyle Lowry.

I think a clock is always ticking to some degree. I feel like Scottie, RJ, IQ are young, but they are three years+ in the league and have been around winning (same with Poeltl). Player dev is important, but at some point your players get frustrated and want to leave if you keep losing. If we don't win and at least make the play-in next season they have to pivot.

As far as player dev, I felt like they took a long time to get Gradey ready for the NBA. What happened during the summer and camp and first quarter of the season? Precious, McDaniels also looked terrible under Darko. RJ adapting to a system where he can drive and just shoot corner threes is exactly what he proved he could do over his first few seasons. I guess Darko gets credit for seeing the obvious and cutting out his mid-range game. Their Raptors 905 looked like the worst team outside of the Ignite which folded.

Dalek wrote:

bluerap23 wrote:

Dalek wrote:Secure a good coach
Darko has not proven anything other than increasing our ball movement and keeping us a top transition offense team. This team won a title built on defense, and drafted Scottie as a strong defensive wing, and brought guys over from the tough Knick's system. I say we pitch Coach Bud or look at the coaching market this season again. Let's not be afraid to pivot.

I hated a lot of what I saw from Darko, BUT he did a great job with player development, which is what he is here for. We aren't trying to win for real right now so I am good with bringing Darko back. It will likely be another 2 seasons before we consider bringing in a Bud-type. I also legit think there is a chance that the next HC of the Raptors will be Kyle Lowry.

I think a clock is always ticking to some degree. I feel like Scottie, RJ, IQ are young, but they are three years+ in the league and have been around winning (same with Poeltl). Player dev is important, but at some point your players get frustrated and want to leave if you keep losing. If we don't win and at least make the play-in next season they have to pivot.

As far as player dev, I felt like they took a long time to get Gradey ready for the NBA. What happened during the summer and camp and first quarter of the season? Precious, McDaniels also looked terrible under Darko. RJ adapting to a system where he can drive and just shoot corner threes is exactly what he proved he could do over his first few seasons. I guess Darko gets credit for seeing the obvious and cutting out his mid-range game. Their Raptors 905 looked like the worst team outside of the Ignite which folded.

Precious looked like crap under Nurse, McDaniels is just a bad player and has never looked like anything beyond a 10th man his entire career, RJ so far looks massively improved from an efficiency standpoint, Scottie has taken another step this year, Gradey looked terrible to start, then looked great at the end of the season, so not sure how that is a black mark on him as a developmental coach.

Expecting this team to have a guaranteed baseline of play in or he gets fired, is kind of ridiculous, this roster is bad, and thin.

Scase wrote:Expecting this team to have a guaranteed baseline of play in or he gets fired, is kind of ridiculous, this roster is bad, and thin.

I feel like you are overvaluing Darko who is a pretty inexperienced head coach.

Why can't making the play-in be a bar? It is a bare minimum if we have four core guys plus all the other moves this FO made. We may not even have a pick next season, so we should go for it.

If this team doesn't make strides towards winning after an offseason where they can draft some fairly high picks, and sign players to add shooting and size, then the coach should go. Sitting on our hands is what got us to this place.

Dalek wrote:

Scase wrote:Expecting this team to have a guaranteed baseline of play in or he gets fired, is kind of ridiculous, this roster is bad, and thin.

I feel like you are overvaluing Darko who is a pretty inexperienced head coach.

Why can't making the play-in be a bar? It is a bare minimum if we have four core guys plus all the other moves this FO made. We may not even have a pick next season, so we should go for it.

If this team doesn't make strides towards winning after an offseason where they can draft some fairly high picks, and sign players to add shooting and size, then the coach should go. Sitting on our hands is what got us to this place.

It's not over or undervaluing him, it's being realistic. The roster right now is extremely thin, if we convey our pick and the only things we add to this roster is a 19th and 30th pick. Expecting a play in berth at minimum is asking a bit much, and blaming that solely on the coach is absurd. I'm basing this off the team remaining the same, and just adding a couple low picks.

If we end up making trades for much more established players, well duh, yeah the prediction and expectations change. But maybe I'm naive and hope that Masai won't make stupid win now moves this off season.

The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

And1'd this for not including McDaniels.

Dalek wrote:

bluerap23 wrote:

Dalek wrote:Secure a good coach
Darko has not proven anything other than increasing our ball movement and keeping us a top transition offense team. This team won a title built on defense, and drafted Scottie as a strong defensive wing, and brought guys over from the tough Knick's system. I say we pitch Coach Bud or look at the coaching market this season again. Let's not be afraid to pivot.

I hated a lot of what I saw from Darko, BUT he did a great job with player development, which is what he is here for. We aren't trying to win for real right now so I am good with bringing Darko back. It will likely be another 2 seasons before we consider bringing in a Bud-type. I also legit think there is a chance that the next HC of the Raptors will be Kyle Lowry.

I think a clock is always ticking to some degree. I feel like Scottie, RJ, IQ are young, but they are three years+ in the league and have been around winning (same with Poeltl). Player dev is important, but at some point your players get frustrated and want to leave if you keep losing. If we don't win and at least make the play-in next season they have to pivot.

As far as player dev, I felt like they took a long time to get Gradey ready for the NBA. What happened during the summer and camp and first quarter of the season? Precious, McDaniels also looked terrible under Darko. RJ adapting to a system where he can drive and just shoot corner threes is exactly what he proved he could do over his first few seasons. I guess Darko gets credit for seeing the obvious and cutting out his mid-range game. Their Raptors 905 looked like the worst team outside of the Ignite which folded.

It's a bit hard to say because we actually barely saw this team play together after the trades happened.

Right after the OG trade, Poeltl got hurt and missed a month.

Once Poeltl came back then Scottie broke his hand, followed by Poeltl breaking his hand. To top it all off, Barrett's brother died prompting him to miss a dozen games.

It's nice to see that Gradey looks like a legit NBA rotational player and a guy like Olynyk gives us a legit high IQ productive back up big that we didn't have for the last 3-4 years.

It will really depend on if Masai can draft productive players or solid free agents that can fill the edges and provide some solid depth. One of the things that allowed the 2013-2014 team to flourish was that the Rudy trade gave our team one of the best benches in the league with Salmons, Hayes, Patterson and Vasquez, instantly providing a cushion for our starters and allowing Lowry and Demar to continue to grow. That team had a solid center in JV, a nice back up big in Patterson, and some really nice filler pieces in Ross, Hayes, Patterson, Vasquez, Salmons etc.

You look at young teams like the Wolves, OKC, Magic, Cavaliers etc. they all have a lot of depth which really helps teams stay afloat during the regular season.

I am a big Masai supporter but his biggest fault the last 4 years in my opinion has been the very poor depth of these teams. He hasn't really hit on any of his free agent signings.

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

That alone raises the floor of a team so much. It cannot be understated how many wins we have bleeded over the past 24 months just simply from losing the beginning of every 2nd and 4th quarter.

The sad thing is, we all disagreed with the FO moves, but went along because we thought Masai knew better.

In the last few years, he didnt.

visionquest wrote:The sad thing is, we all disagreed with the FO moves, but went along because we thought Masai knew better.

In the last few years, he didnt.

that's an accurate statement, that we gave the benefit of the doubt to Ujiri

in his defense, Even though Raps gave away an FRP for Thad Young and Koloko
things look promising at the end of the 2021-2022 season.
- Raps had made the playoffs 2nd time out of 3 previous seasons
- took 2 games from Sixers in FRP
- two all-stars FVV, Pascal, and all-nba defender OG
- promising youngsters in Scottie Barnes and Precious

So it's too bad, things fell apart at the seams the following season when the lack of shooting, backup PG and center caught up to them

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

I'm not seeing much in the way of depth here. Olynyk is decent for like 15ish min a game, Ochai barely looks NBA level, Brown didn't even look NBA level with us, and expecting a 19th and 31st pick to contribute is some real wishful thinking.

I see here yet another Raptors roster that has a solid starting 5 + 1 or 2 decent bench players, and that's about it. We've seen this song and dance for years.

Dalek wrote:

bluerap23 wrote:

Dalek wrote:Secure a good coach
Darko has not proven anything other than increasing our ball movement and keeping us a top transition offense team. This team won a title built on defense, and drafted Scottie as a strong defensive wing, and brought guys over from the tough Knick's system. I say we pitch Coach Bud or look at the coaching market this season again. Let's not be afraid to pivot.

I hated a lot of what I saw from Darko, BUT he did a great job with player development, which is what he is here for. We aren't trying to win for real right now so I am good with bringing Darko back. It will likely be another 2 seasons before we consider bringing in a Bud-type. I also legit think there is a chance that the next HC of the Raptors will be Kyle Lowry.

I think a clock is always ticking to some degree. I feel like Scottie, RJ, IQ are young, but they are three years+ in the league and have been around winning (same with Poeltl). Player dev is important, but at some point your players get frustrated and want to leave if you keep losing. If we don't win and at least make the play-in next season they have to pivot.

As far as player dev, I felt like they took a long time to get Gradey ready for the NBA. What happened during the summer and camp and first quarter of the season? Precious, McDaniels also looked terrible under Darko. RJ adapting to a system where he can drive and just shoot corner threes is exactly what he proved he could do over his first few seasons. I guess Darko gets credit for seeing the obvious and cutting out his mid-range game. Their Raptors 905 looked like the worst team outside of the Ignite which folded.

No doubt Precious looks better in NY. It is a totally different offensive system. The system Darko implemented here was designed for Scottie. Precious did not fit that system. Not sure McDaniels really fits any NBA system.

Scase wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

I'm not seeing much in the way of depth here. Olynyk is decent for like 15ish min a game, Ochai barely looks NBA level, Brown didn't even look NBA level with us, and expecting a 19th and 31st pick to contribute is some real wishful thinking.

I see here yet another Raptors roster that has a solid starting 5 + 1 or 2 decent bench players, and that's about it. We've seen this song and dance for years.

Bro what are you talking about

Brown was a key piece of a champiopn Nuggets team putting up 11.5/4.1/3.4 on .57TS%, but here is he "not even NBA level" on 9.6/3.8/2.7 on 56TS%. Just an all-time horrible take.

Agbaji, a guy who has started 50/137 games in his career, barely looks NBA level? you should fire up the "Agbaji is a historically bad shooter" thread because he had the worst 27 game stretch of his career shooting wise here.

Last year between pick 19 and 31 we got Podz, Whitmore, Murray, Sasser, Sheppard. Aka 40ish% of those picks ewre useful players in year 1.

Year before that there was Branham, Braun, Kessler, Roddy, Buachcamp, Jovic, Watson, Nembhard (and s/o to Koloko at 33) who all were able to give bench minutes as rookies. Is not "wishful thinking" to think you could get at least 1 guy there who can play in year 1 - especially considering our history in those areas of drafting.

YogurtProducer wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

That alone raises the floor of a team so much. It cannot be understated how many wins we have bleeded over the past 24 months just simply from losing the beginning of every 2nd and 4th quarter.

Should that be overstated?

WaltFrazier wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

That alone raises the floor of a team so much. It cannot be understated how many wins we have bleeded over the past 24 months just simply from losing the beginning of every 2nd and 4th quarter.

Should that be overstated?

Yep.

Shouldn’t be underrstated / can’t be overstated

I managed to **** it up completely

MiamiSPX wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

And1'd this for not including McDaniels.

Realistically top six are nba competent... we can add Boucher... the rest are big question marks including the pics (top 6 may be ok).... I still see non existent bench mostly ...

YogurtProducer wrote:

Scase wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

I'm not seeing much in the way of depth here. Olynyk is decent for like 15ish min a game, Ochai barely looks NBA level, Brown didn't even look NBA level with us, and expecting a 19th and 31st pick to contribute is some real wishful thinking.

I see here yet another Raptors roster that has a solid starting 5 + 1 or 2 decent bench players, and that's about it. We've seen this song and dance for years.

Bro what are you talking about

Brown was a key piece of a champiopn Nuggets team putting up 11.5/4.1/3.4 on .57TS%, but here is he "not even NBA level" on 9.6/3.8/2.7 on 56TS%. Just an all-time horrible take.

Agbaji, a guy who has started 50/137 games in his career, barely looks NBA level? you should fire up the "Agbaji is a historically bad shooter" thread because he had the worst 27 game stretch of his career shooting wise here.

Last year between pick 19 and 31 we got Podz, Whitmore, Murray, Sasser, Sheppard. Aka 40ish% of those picks ewre useful players in year 1.

Year before that there was Branham, Braun, Kessler, Roddy, Buachcamp, Jovic, Watson, Nembhard (and s/o to Koloko at 33) who all were able to give bench minutes as rookies. Is not "wishful thinking" to think you could get at least 1 guy there who can play in year 1 - especially considering our history in those areas of drafting.

Lol Ochai did not even look like an NBA caliber reserve, let alone starter

Hitting on late 1st round picks is as much about luck as it is about FO competency. It's possible they contribute right away but to place your faith in that is just setting up for disappointment

junot111 wrote:

YogurtProducer wrote:

Scase wrote:I'm not seeing much in the way of depth here. Olynyk is decent for like 15ish min a game, Ochai barely looks NBA level, Brown didn't even look NBA level with us, and expecting a 19th and 31st pick to contribute is some real wishful thinking.

I see here yet another Raptors roster that has a solid starting 5 + 1 or 2 decent bench players, and that's about it. We've seen this song and dance for years.

Bro what are you talking about

Brown was a key piece of a champiopn Nuggets team putting up 11.5/4.1/3.4 on .57TS%, but here is he "not even NBA level" on 9.6/3.8/2.7 on 56TS%. Just an all-time horrible take.

Agbaji, a guy who has started 50/137 games in his career, barely looks NBA level? you should fire up the "Agbaji is a historically bad shooter" thread because he had the worst 27 game stretch of his career shooting wise here.

Last year between pick 19 and 31 we got Podz, Whitmore, Murray, Sasser, Sheppard. Aka 40ish% of those picks ewre useful players in year 1.

Year before that there was Branham, Braun, Kessler, Roddy, Buachcamp, Jovic, Watson, Nembhard (and s/o to Koloko at 33) who all were able to give bench minutes as rookies. Is not "wishful thinking" to think you could get at least 1 guy there who can play in year 1 - especially considering our history in those areas of drafting.

Lol Ochai did not even look like an NBA caliber reserve, let alone starter

Hitting on late 1st round picks is as much about luck as it is about FO competency. It's possible they contribute right away but to place your faith in that is just setting up for disappointment

Ochai's defense alone showed he is a NBA caliber player. Plus he showed some nice cutting actions as well.

He shot the ball quite horribly here, but the guy shot 35% from 3 in UTAH and 37% in college. Reaspnable to assume the 21% he shot here in a small sample is not going to be the norm.

He is not some all-star and should not be confused as such, but to say he is not NBA level is just cluelessness and overreaction to some poor shooting on a **** show of a team that we were for the last 2 months of the year.

Kingsway_fan wrote:

MiamiSPX wrote:

OakleyDokely wrote:The depth has the potential to be much better next year.

Poeltl
Barnes
Barrett
Dick
IQ
Olynyk
Ochai
Brown
6th pick (possibly)
19th pick
31st pick

Plus, they will either re-sign GTJ or get a replacement for him in free agency. They should have 11-12 possible rotation options with their existing assets/players without making multiple moves.

And1'd this for not including McDaniels.

Realistically top six are nba competent... we can add Boucher... the rest are big question marks including the pics (top 6 may be ok).... I still see non existent bench mostly ...

People calling Bruce not NBA competent are really exposing themselves here

Most NBA teams only have 3 or so bench guys that are "reliable" and that is probably being generous.

YogurtProducer wrote:

Kingsway_fan wrote:

MiamiSPX wrote:
And1'd this for not including McDaniels.

Realistically top six are nba competent... we can add Boucher... the rest are big question marks including the pics (top 6 may be ok).... I still see non existent bench mostly ...

People calling Bruce not NBA competent are really exposing themselves here

Most NBA teams only have 3 or so bench guys that are "reliable" and that is probably being generous.

Bruce Brown is fine, he just clearly didn't want to be here. So either we deal him for more depth or convince him that his role is best spent playing as a main contributor on our bench.