ImageImageImageImageImage

2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs

Moderators: Morris_Shatford, DG88, Reeko, lebron stopper, 7 Footer, Duffman100, HiJiNX, niQ

Do you want to keep or convey the pick?

Keep the pick
60
44%
Convey the pick
53
39%
Don’t care
23
17%
 
Total votes: 136

User avatar
binjumper
Veteran
Posts: 2,506
And1: 3,720
Joined: Oct 02, 2009
       

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#861 » by binjumper » Tue May 14, 2024 5:54 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
This is where it's hard as a moderator to determine who is a fan of the team. Vs who is just actively trolling the forum for fun.

We have to then make judgment calls and then get blasted for it.


Yeah like being a fan of the team is about paying whatever (draft capital or money) to get players that can contribute to win. Never care about whether that contribution is worth the cost


... like who is that?


on this tombstone one day it will say "Great Person, just didn't like the Poeltl trade or Masai"
Image
User avatar
Duffman100
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 42,415
And1: 63,109
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
   

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#862 » by Duffman100 » Tue May 14, 2024 5:54 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
Yeah like being a fan of the team is about paying whatever (draft capital or money) to get players that can contribute to win. Never care about whether that contribution is worth the cost


... like who is that?


That's the reason I'm here arguing about Poeltl. Other posters make it sound like his contribution to winning (quoting W-L with/without Poeltl in the lineup since Feb 2023), is worth the cost of acquisition (and on-going salary), and I'm arguing it's not.


That doesn't equate to what you said above.

It also doesn't explain a hyperbolic statement like Poeltl is worth a SRP.
User avatar
OakleyDokely
RealGM
Posts: 33,217
And1: 63,891
Joined: Aug 02, 2008
Location: 416
 

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#863 » by OakleyDokely » Tue May 14, 2024 5:56 pm

Poeltl's ranking among his draft class:

Win Shares: 4th
Win Shares per 48: 3rd
VORP: 9th
BPM: 6th

Poeltl's a successful draft pick and has overperformed the expected outcome of a draft pick around his spot.

Some people really overrate what you actually get out of the average draft pick if they think Poeltl isn't a good or successful NBAer.
DelAbbot
RealGM
Posts: 12,876
And1: 19,190
Joined: May 22, 2019
   

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#864 » by DelAbbot » Tue May 14, 2024 5:57 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
... like who is that?


That's the reason I'm here arguing about Poeltl. Other posters make it sound like his contribution to winning (quoting W-L with/without Poeltl in the lineup since Feb 2023), is worth the cost of acquisition (and on-going salary), and I'm arguing it's not.


That doesn't equate to what you said above.

It also doesn't explain a hyperbolic statement like Poeltl is worth a SRP.


I honestly believe it's 2 SRP. Did I make it hyperbolic when I said just 1 SRP?

It's not 2 SRP for Poeltl on a rookie scale contract. It's 2 SRP for Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months of play in 2023.
User avatar
Duffman100
Forum Mod - Raptors
Forum Mod - Raptors
Posts: 42,415
And1: 63,109
Joined: Jun 27, 2002
   

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#865 » by Duffman100 » Tue May 14, 2024 5:58 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
Duffman100 wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
That's the reason I'm here arguing about Poeltl. Other posters make it sound like his contribution to winning (quoting W-L with/without Poeltl in the lineup since Feb 2023), is worth the cost of acquisition (and on-going salary), and I'm arguing it's not.


That doesn't equate to what you said above.

It also doesn't explain a hyperbolic statement like Poeltl is worth a SRP.


I honestly believe it's 2 SRP. Did I make it hyperbolic when I said just 1 SRP?


Like I said. You make it hard to believe you aren't just trying to troll the board.
bballsparkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 7,559
Joined: Mar 03, 2009

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#866 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 14, 2024 6:01 pm

DelAbbot wrote:Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people


Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.
DelAbbot
RealGM
Posts: 12,876
And1: 19,190
Joined: May 22, 2019
   

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#867 » by DelAbbot » Tue May 14, 2024 6:06 pm

bballsparkin wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people


Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.


Look at what Bos were rumored in offering the Spurs for Poeltl. It was 2 SRP.
bballsparkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 7,559
Joined: Mar 03, 2009

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#868 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 14, 2024 6:07 pm

^^Looks at what Boston didn't get,...Poeltl.

edit: it's not a realistic trade proposal at all.
brownbobcat
Head Coach
Posts: 6,222
And1: 3,337
Joined: Jun 09, 2006

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#869 » by brownbobcat » Tue May 14, 2024 6:08 pm

bballsparkin wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people


Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.

Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary. A non-lotto FRP is a reasonable price for a role-player starter (e.g. KCP, Brown, PJ Tucker) depending on contract situation, etc.
bballsparkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 7,559
Joined: Mar 03, 2009

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#871 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 14, 2024 6:16 pm

brownbobcat wrote:Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary.


Good trade for the Mavs. Wizards secured the #2 pick so mission accomplished. I would have rather retained the Raptors pick this year and made that trade for Gafford. I'm not arguing that. Jakob will not be dealt for SRP's anytime soon. Gafford is 6 10 and 235. Jakob is a legitimate C at 7 foot 245.
ciueli
Analyst
Posts: 3,180
And1: 2,320
Joined: Apr 11, 2007

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#872 » by ciueli » Tue May 14, 2024 6:18 pm

Duffman100 wrote:
ciueli wrote:Everyone here defending Jak should go look at every other team's roster and realize the vast majority of the teams in the league have one of:

- a player (or players) around as good as Jak making less money.
- a player way better than Jak.

Some teams have both.

The only teams in the league I found with starting Cs clearly worse than us were Chicago, Washington, and Charlotte. Jak is not our long term answer at C, he's entering his year 29 season and should be traded as he does not fit the timeline of the core being built around.


Please provide a list.


Warriors - Looney (similar production, much cheaper).
Clippers - Zubac (similar, younger, cheaper).
Suns - Nurkic (similar, cheaper and even he's considered a bad contract)
Celtics - Porzingis, Horford.
Bucks - Lopez, Portis.
Nuggets - Jokic.
Heat - Bam.
Lakers - AD.
Knicks - Hartenstein (Similar, arguably had a better year than Jak, paid less than half what Jak is getting, probably won't get much more than the MLE in free agency).
Blazers - Ayton (Overpaid, but younger and arguably better, at least he's not a liability at the FT line).
Wolves - Gobert, Towns.
Mavs - Gafford (actually had a pretty good year, he's younger and makes less than Jak).
Pels - Jonas (similar production, better in some ways, makes less, probably an MLE type this offseason).
Cavs - Allen, Mobley.
Grizzlies - JJJ.
76ers - Embiid.
OCK - Chet.
Hawks - Capela (This is close, I'd take Capela as he is a better rebounder, a weak spot for the Raptors right now, Atlanta was 6th in the NBA in rebounds this season, Raptors were 24th, they also have Okongwu who is young and cheaper).
Rockets - Sengun.
Nets - Claxton (Younger, I saw a lot of posts on this board saying they'd rather have him than Jak, he's a better shot blocker and rebounder than Jak, we'll see what he gets paid this offseason).
Kings - Sabonis.
Pacers - Turner.
Spurs - Wemby.
Pistons - Duren.
Magic - Isaac.
Jazz - Kessler.

So we can see how many of those players are on rookie deals, how many are set for a massive raise this offseason, how many were signed years before.


The point is we have probably one of the worst C rotations for the money we're paying in the entire league, $32M/year paid to Jakob Poeltl and Kelly Olynk. The core of BBQ is set, that means improvement in the staring 5 really needs to come from upgrades to SF and C, it makes sense to trade Jak given his age not aligning with the rest of the core.

Of course, he won't be traded because of politics and optics, along with the inevitable push by management to make the play-in tournament in 2024-25, but he should be. He has glaring holes in his game, and he isn't better at the traditional big man stuff than a lot of other players in the league who make less money.
bballsparkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 7,559
Joined: Mar 03, 2009

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#873 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 14, 2024 6:20 pm

DelAbbot wrote:https://www.si.com/nba/raptors/news/boston-celtics-competing-offer-for-jakob-poeltl-toronto-raptors-san-antonio-spurs


So players don't count?

Toronto ultimately finalized the deal with the San Antonio Spurs, sending Khem Birch, a top-six protected first-round pick in 2024, a 2023 second-round pick, and a 2025 second-round pick to the Spurs for the 27-year-old center, as HoopsHype's Michael Scotto reported.


Had it not been Toronto's deal, the Celtics were reportedly offering Payton Pritchard, Danilo Gallinari, and multiple second-round picks, according to Brian Robb of MassLive.


MassLive, sounds like a credible neutral third party source.
DelAbbot
RealGM
Posts: 12,876
And1: 19,190
Joined: May 22, 2019
   

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#874 » by DelAbbot » Tue May 14, 2024 6:22 pm

bballsparkin wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people


Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.


I'm not trolling to get a reaction.

If I come across hyperbolic (I did mistype and say 1 SRP) it's because I got too angry thinking about the loss of value and how much Masai set us back - while pro Masai posters add insult to injury justifying his bad moves.
canada_dry
Head Coach
Posts: 6,902
And1: 5,380
Joined: Aug 22, 2017

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#875 » by canada_dry » Tue May 14, 2024 6:25 pm

ATLTimekeeper wrote:Bobby's quote seems so strange considering his most successful draft was Poeltl, Siakam, VanVleet.
Idk. Not that strange. Its in line with masais quote of not really being interested in bringing in 3 rooks as well lol.

If we had all 3, a trade for at least one of them would definitely have happened imo.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app
bballsparkin
RealGM
Posts: 10,299
And1: 7,559
Joined: Mar 03, 2009

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#876 » by bballsparkin » Tue May 14, 2024 6:28 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
I'm not trolling to get a reaction.

If I come across hyperbolic (I did mistype and say 1 SRP) it's because I got too angry thinking about the loss of value and how much Masai set us back - while pro Masai posters add insult to injury justifying his bad moves.


Cool, I disagree with you though. Jakob is worth a mid FRP. And if a team doesn't pay up he will be retained. Draft Yves Missi and let him learn from Poeltl. Boston has Center's. Most teams do. Toronto did not. Losing Koloko was a bad break too.
User avatar
OakleyDokely
RealGM
Posts: 33,217
And1: 63,891
Joined: Aug 02, 2008
Location: 416
 

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#877 » by OakleyDokely » Tue May 14, 2024 6:29 pm

canada_dry wrote:
ATLTimekeeper wrote:Bobby's quote seems so strange considering his most successful draft was Poeltl, Siakam, VanVleet.
Idk. Not that strange. Its in line with masais quote of not really being interested in bringing in 3 rooks as well lol.

If we had all 3, a trade for at least one of them would definitely have happened imo.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app


Technically, they had 2 picks as VV was an undrafted FA.
canada_dry
Head Coach
Posts: 6,902
And1: 5,380
Joined: Aug 22, 2017

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#878 » by canada_dry » Tue May 14, 2024 6:35 pm

brownbobcat wrote:
Los_29 wrote:How many centers actually play heavy minutes? Even guys like Jokic and Embiid barely play over 30 minutes a game. Poeltl was not 8th on our team in minutes. I can’t believe you didn’t bother to even check that. You know who is ahead of him? Pascal, OG and Dennis. Three players who are NOT on our team anymore. With our current roster, you really think he would be 8th in minutes?

Uhh, that doesn't help your argument. You can't simultaneously be not good enough to play heavy minutes and also be a major contributor to winning. Jokic plays 33-35 mins/game in the regular season and nearly 40 in the playoffs. Same goes for Embiid despite being made of glass, so I have no idea what you're talking about. 26.4 minutes is 26.4 minutes any way you want to slice it for Poeltl, he's barely ahead of Brown and Agbaji. The only other C on the team the year before was a very raw rookie C and Poeltl still couldn't crack 30 MPG despite being the "missing piece".

Los_29 wrote:I always find player A and player B comparisons funny but the reality is Poeltl is a better player than Hartenstein. When the Knicks were healthy, Hartenstein was barely playing.

The point about Hartenstein was more about them being on the same tier, which they are. He and Robinson platoon the 5, the Raptors have no one else to turn to and Poeltl barely gets more minutes more in spite of that.
Myles Turner doesn't play 30.
Chet doesn't play 30.
Wemby doesn't play 30.
Countless other centers dont play 30 unless They're 2 of the top 5 players in this league with a combined 4 mvps the past 4 years.

And Joel embiid barely plays 30.

They must be unimportant too.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app
canada_dry
Head Coach
Posts: 6,902
And1: 5,380
Joined: Aug 22, 2017

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#879 » by canada_dry » Tue May 14, 2024 6:37 pm

DelAbbot wrote:
PushDaRock wrote:
ciueli wrote:If Jakob Poeltl is so good, why did he get outplayed by Luke Kornet, the third string centre on the Celtics?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202312290BOS.html

Luke Kornet made around 13% of the money Poeltl did this season and is struggling to stay in the league, BTW. He started for the Celtics that game because both Porzingis and Horford were out. Oh, yeah, the Celtics beat us that game even though they didn't have Jayson Tatum as well.

Here's another question. If Jakob Poeltl is so good, why does every team he start for suddenly suck? The only time he's made the playoffs as a starter for his team was 2019 on the Spurs when they lost in the first round, a series where he averaged 7.3 PPG, 7.7 RPG, and 1.3 APG in 25.3 MPG. Maybe it has something to do with him providing zero floor spacing and his inability to hit free throws?


Raptors Record with Poeltl in 22-23 was 15-11 and 26-30 without him
Raptors Record with Poeltl in 23-24 was 21-29 and 4-28 without him

But sure he is the reason why they suddenly started sucking.



Don't mention Barnes was out and IQ and RJ held out for tanking during the majority of that 4-28. It almost makes Poeltl look as good as FVV
The record with those guys playing and poetl out was still crap. Very crap.

But carry on.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app
canada_dry
Head Coach
Posts: 6,902
And1: 5,380
Joined: Aug 22, 2017

Re: 2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs 

Post#880 » by canada_dry » Tue May 14, 2024 6:38 pm

Shakril wrote:
DelAbbot wrote:
PushDaRock wrote:
Raptors Record with Poeltl in 22-23 was 15-11 and 26-30 without him
Raptors Record with Poeltl in 23-24 was 21-29 and 4-28 without him

But sure he is the reason why they suddenly started sucking.



Don't mention Barnes was out and IQ and RJ held out for tanking during the majority of that 4-28. It almost makes Poeltl look as good as FVV


The more important stat is not the 4-28, but the stat in january and February were they were 2-11 i think.
Everybody else played and they couldnt win. And they couldnt win, cause the lack of everything Poeltl brings to the table.
But since memories are short, you find any excuse to diminish Poeltl, cause you need someone to poop on.
Bingo.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Return to Toronto Raptors