2024 NBA Draft Lottery | TODAY! @3pm EST | Update: Raptors Convey 8th Pick to Spurs

[Purple Fever]

Poeltl is an outdated big who does not fit the current NBA at all. It was a gross overpay but what’s done is thankfully done.

Modern NBA big needs to be able to have some combination of:

- SPEED
- ATHLETICISM
- SWITCHABILITY
- SHOOTING (FREE THROWS AT MINIMUM)

Poeltl is 0/4 in those categories and as a result the team has a limit to their ceiling.

[PushDaRock]

Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people

Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.

Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary. A non-lotto FRP is a reasonable price for a role-player starter (e.g. KCP, Brown, PJ Tucker) depending on contract situation, etc.

Gafford has 1 more year left on his deal after this one.

A lotto pick this year is not equal to a lotto pick in other years. At #8, you're probably looking at someone picked around 20 most years.

[JB7]

Yes I do think Poeltl's bird rights and 2 months is worth a SRP or two - that's what Bos was willing to pay for Poeltl

when I say FRP is arguably fair for Poeltl - that's just to get have a chance at a conversation with some people

Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.

Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary. A non-lotto FRP is a reasonable price for a role-player starter (e.g. KCP, Brown, PJ Tucker) depending on contract situation, etc.

Part of the deal for Yak was the ability to resign him, since he was looking for more than the MLE, on a playoff caliber team. Since all of those teams are above the salary cap, the only way to be able to sign Yak was to have his bird rights, which meant a trade.

So trading for him was acquiring him for the long term.

If the Raps put a restriction on the pick that was lotto protected, they would have the #8 pick in this crap draft, and given up a potentially better talent out of the 2025 or 2026 draft.

[JB7]

Poeltl is an outdated big who does not fit the current NBA at all. It was a gross overpay but what’s done is thankfully done.

Modern NBA big needs to be able to have some combination of:

- SPEED
- ATHLETICISM
- SWITCHABILITY
- SHOOTING (FREE THROWS AT MINIMUM)

Poeltl is 0/4 in those categories and as a result the team has a limit to their ceiling.

So Jokic only covers one of those criteria. I guess the MVP of the league has limited the ceiling of his championship team

[brownbobcat]

Myles Turner doesn't play 30.
Chet doesn't play 30.
Wemby doesn't play 30.
Countless other centers dont play 30 unless They're 2 of the top 5 players in this league with a combined 4 mvps the past 4 years.

And Joel embiid barely plays 30.

They must be unimportant too.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Since when is 33.6 minutes considered "barely" 30, especially for a guy who's had a ton of injury issues?
Chet and Wemby are rookies that are being brought along more slowly while they physically develop (plus Chet coming off season-ending injury last year) - and they still played more than Poeltl ever has OVER 8 YEARS.

Is Poeltl a starting-calibre C? Yes, he is, but on the lower end.

[OakleyDokely]

Minutes is a very poor way to evaluate players now because minutes have been cut for everyone. Stars are barely playing over 30 minutes now.

There were only 17 Cs total who played over 30 minutes and most were just barely over 30. Unless you're an impact star C, most starting caliber players will be in the 26-32 range.

[brownbobcat]

Minutes is a very poor way to evaluate players now because minutes have been cut for everyone. Stars are barely playing over 30 minutes now.

There were only 17 Cs total who played over 30 minutes and most were just barely over 30. Unless you're an impact star C, most starting caliber players will be in the 26-32 range.

And if Poeltl is well under that 30 min threshold that 17 other guys exceed - and has been his entire career - does that not make him a lower tier starting C?

I'm not demanding that he log 48.5 mins every night like Wilt, but if you don't play more than GTJ or KO, you're simply not that great nor invaluable. Serviceable is the apt descriptor.

[Scase]

lol ok there, you think he sucks, nothing more to say.

I don't understand how I can make this more clear. He does not objectively suck, he has a skill set that is limited and not fit for the modern NBA. Thereby making him less valuable, and less desirable to other teams. Jak looks fine here, because we havent had a C for like 4 years. Please I beg of you, go watch games that involve teams other than the Raptors. There are virtually no successful teams that run a starting centre of his calibre/skill set, and the handful that do, balance it out with minor things like a player who just came in 3rd in MVP voting.

But please do keep trying to make this as basic as a convo as possible, because you have zero ability to be objective about raptor players.

Wow, your telling me championship contenders that have a role player at Centre position need lots of talent at other positions? That's true for any position or skill set.

How can you be so possibly close to getting the point, and still be completely missing it, is honestly impressive.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I'm also telling you THE RAPTORS LACK THE "LOTS OF TALENT" AT OTHER POSITIONS PART. Which is why the trade was stupid and he was a bad fit. We do not have the ability to make up for his short comings.

The teams who have players with the same shortcomings at their C spot, have the talent to make up for it. Therefore, he is a bad fit here.

I literally cannot spell it out any more straight forward. Either you comprehend this, or you don't. If it's the latter just don't bother responding cause this is going nowhere.

[Duffman100]

Everyone here defending Jak should go look at every other team's roster and realize the vast majority of the teams in the league have one of:

- a player (or players) around as good as Jak making less money.
- a player way better than Jak.

Some teams have both.

The only teams in the league I found with starting Cs clearly worse than us were Chicago, Washington, and Charlotte. Jak is not our long term answer at C, he's entering his year 29 season and should be traded as he does not fit the timeline of the core being built around.

Please provide a list.

Warriors - Looney (similar production, much cheaper).
Clippers - Zubac (similar, younger, cheaper).
Suns - Nurkic (similar, cheaper and even he's considered a bad contract)
Celtics - Porzingis, Horford.
Bucks - Lopez, Portis.
Nuggets - Jokic.
Heat - Bam.
Lakers - AD.
Knicks - Hartenstein (Similar, arguably had a better year than Jak, paid less than half what Jak is getting, probably won't get much more than the MLE in free agency).
Blazers - Ayton (Overpaid, but younger and arguably better, at least he's not a liability at the FT line).
Wolves - Gobert, Towns.
Mavs - Gafford (actually had a pretty good year, he's younger and makes less than Jak).
Pels - Jonas (similar production, better in some ways, makes less, probably an MLE type this offseason).
Cavs - Allen, Mobley.
Grizzlies - JJJ.
76ers - Embiid.
OCK - Chet.
Hawks - Capela (This is close, I'd take Capela as he is a better rebounder, a weak spot for the Raptors right now, Atlanta was 6th in the NBA in rebounds this season, Raptors were 24th, they also have Okongwu who is young and cheaper).
Rockets - Sengun.
Nets - Claxton (Younger, I saw a lot of posts on this board saying they'd rather have him than Jak, he's a better shot blocker and rebounder than Jak, we'll see what he gets paid this offseason).
Kings - Sabonis.
Pacers - Turner.
Spurs - Wemby.
Pistons - Duren.
Magic - Isaac.
Jazz - Kessler.

So we can see how many of those players are on rookie deals, how many are set for a massive raise this offseason, how many were signed years before.

The point is we have probably one of the worst C rotations for the money we're paying in the entire league, $32M/year paid to Jakob Poeltl and Kelly Olynk. The core of BBQ is set, that means improvement in the staring 5 really needs to come from upgrades to SF and C, it makes sense to trade Jak given his age not aligning with the rest of the core.

Of course, he won't be traded because of politics and optics, along with the inevitable push by management to make the play-in tournament in 2024-25, but he should be. He has glaring holes in his game, and he isn't better at the traditional big man stuff than a lot of other players in the league who make less money.

yeah once you eliminate the rookie contracts, the soon to be FAs, the guys making considerable more money. The last few comparables who have the same impact on the game are a really telling tale.

[YogurtProducer]

Everyone here defending Jak should go look at every other team's roster and realize the vast majority of the teams in the league have one of:

- a player (or players) around as good as Jak making less money.
- a player way better than Jak.

Some teams have both.

The only teams in the league I found with starting Cs clearly worse than us were Chicago, Washington, and Charlotte. Jak is not our long term answer at C, he's entering his year 29 season and should be traded as he does not fit the timeline of the core being built around.

Please provide a list.

Warriors - Looney (similar production, much cheaper).
Clippers - Zubac (similar, younger, cheaper).
Suns - Nurkic (similar, cheaper and even he's considered a bad contract)
Celtics - Porzingis, Horford.
Bucks - Lopez, Portis.
Nuggets - Jokic.
Heat - Bam.
Lakers - AD.
Knicks - Hartenstein (Similar, arguably had a better year than Jak, paid less than half what Jak is getting, probably won't get much more than the MLE in free agency).
Blazers - Ayton (Overpaid, but younger and arguably better, at least he's not a liability at the FT line).
Wolves - Gobert, Towns.
Mavs - Gafford (actually had a pretty good year, he's younger and makes less than Jak).
Pels - Jonas (similar production, better in some ways, makes less, probably an MLE type this offseason).
Cavs - Allen, Mobley.
Grizzlies - JJJ.
76ers - Embiid.
OCK - Chet.
Hawks - Capela (This is close, I'd take Capela as he is a better rebounder, a weak spot for the Raptors right now, Atlanta was 6th in the NBA in rebounds this season, Raptors were 24th, they also have Okongwu who is young and cheaper).
Rockets - Sengun.
Nets - Claxton (Younger, I saw a lot of posts on this board saying they'd rather have him than Jak, he's a better shot blocker and rebounder than Jak, we'll see what he gets paid this offseason).
Kings - Sabonis.
Pacers - Turner.
Spurs - Wemby.
Pistons - Duren.
Magic - Isaac.
Jazz - Kessler.

So we can see how many of those players are on rookie deals, how many are set for a massive raise this offseason, how many were signed years before.

The point is we have probably one of the worst C rotations for the money we're paying in the entire league, $32M/year paid to Jakob Poeltl and Kelly Olynk. The core of BBQ is set, that means improvement in the staring 5 really needs to come from upgrades to SF and C, it makes sense to trade Jak given his age not aligning with the rest of the core.

Of course, he won't be traded because of politics and optics, along with the inevitable push by management to make the play-in tournament in 2024-25, but he should be. He has glaring holes in his game, and he isn't better at the traditional big man stuff than a lot of other players in the league who make less money.

Looney? Jesus man at least try to hide that name half way thru put putting so obvious at the top He is not even CLOSE to Poeltl.

Zubac / Nurkic / Gafford / JV / etc. are all not better than Poeltl. They are paid less for less production, not sure what your point is re: them at all.

Kessler? The guy who cant do anything but stand under the rim?

Isaac? He has played 69 games in 5 years. And he played 15mpg this year.

Funny how you can make a list look long, but when half of them have *'s next to them its meaningless.

By the last year of his deal Poeltl is gonna be a bargain deal. Separate the trade from the player.

[YogurtProducer]

I don't understand how I can make this more clear. He does not objectively suck, he has a skill set that is limited and not fit for the modern NBA. Thereby making him less valuable, and less desirable to other teams. Jak looks fine here, because we havent had a C for like 4 years. Please I beg of you, go watch games that involve teams other than the Raptors. There are virtually no successful teams that run a starting centre of his calibre/skill set, and the handful that do, balance it out with minor things like a player who just came in 3rd in MVP voting.

But please do keep trying to make this as basic as a convo as possible, because you have zero ability to be objective about raptor players.

Wow, your telling me championship contenders that have a role player at Centre position need lots of talent at other positions? That's true for any position or skill set.

How can you be so possibly close to getting the point, and still completely missing it, is honestly impressive.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I'm also telling you THE RAPTORS LACK THE "LOTS OF TALENT" AT OTHER POSITIONS PART. Which is why the trade was stupid and he was a bad fit. We do not have the ability to make up for his short comings.

The teams who have players with the same shortcomings at their C spot, have the talent to make up for it. Therefore, he is a bad fit here.

I literally cannot spell it out any more straight forward. Either you comprehend this, or you don't. If it's the latter just don't bother responding cause this is going nowhere.

So since we lack high end talent we should just not focus on literally anything else? After this draft, we have all of our future picks and who is saying a situation does not arise where we package Salaries + picks for that high end talent? Hell, who is to say it is not Jak + picks that goes out eventually?

IDK what is with this section of the fandom that thinks you can just bottom out and have no talent until all of a sudden you can bring in high end talent + role players all in one off-season.

Yak is 28. We should be focusing on competitive basketball within 2-3 years. So I dont see what the big deal is with Jak.

[Scase]

Thanks, I've never watched basketball before that doesn't involve the Raptors. I would give Jak the max if I were GM, so lucky for you guys Masai is in charge.

Thanks for the adult discussion, carry on.

The Modern NBA gets more and more Center heavy. Especially as Victor and Chet are coming up. So you want to tell me that a Defensive Minded center, that can defend those Monsters, a Team-First Player, efficent in scoring, a good rimprotector, a Rebounder and an anchor on defense, a good passer but doesnt hog the Ball, that that guy is limited and not fit for the NBA?

The only thing he cant do is shoot. Thats all. He can do everything else. So to take your argument, you reduce every players worth to one skill, shooting. Thats very shortsighted.

And the reason you dont see many teams with guys like Poeltl is simple. There arent many in the first place that are on his level.

I'm sorry lmao, are you trying to say that Jak is going to be able to defend players like Chet and Wemby? My god, this is new levels of homerism.

Jak is useless away from the basket both on defence and offence. All of these monsters coming into the NBA either shoot the 3 at a respectable level, or in Chets case an incredible level. So no, you don't need a lumbering oaf to defend them, you need agile players that can match up.

For the love of god, please just WATCH some NBA games that don't involve the raps. Or hell, even just watch OUR games, you know who was guarding wemby when we played them? Scottie was.

You think any coach with half a brain and a pulse is going to put someone like Jak on a mobile centre like chet or wemby? I mean jeeze, maybe even a sensible argument would have been for him to be used to guard players like Jokic who are less mobile.

But guess what, Jokic was here in december, and Jak was on the floor for 19 minutes and managed to put up a stat line of 4/5/3 and managed a -12.

And when he played Jokic the year before in SA? Jokic put up 21/6/10/2 in 26min, and Jak ended up with the worst +/- on the team at -23 in 28 min. And then the next game Jokic dropped 26/8/10/2/3 in 34min. Jak ended up with the second worst +/- on the team with -12 in 32min.

You people seem to seriously overestimate his impact on winning, and seem to conveniently forget that he looks as good as he does, because the basis of comparison prior, was Alex Lenn, Baynes, and no centre at all. He is an alright centre, technically a well below average starting centre, but decent enough. He is not going to be doing anything against these "monsters" aside from getting completely run over.

My god, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills reading some of these unhinged comments

[Chandan]

If Jakob Poeltl is so good, why did he get outplayed by Luke Kornet, the third string centre on the Celtics?

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202312290BOS.html

Luke Kornet made around 13% of the money Poeltl did this season and is struggling to stay in the league, BTW. He started for the Celtics that game because both Porzingis and Horford were out. Oh, yeah, the Celtics beat us that game even though they didn't have Jayson Tatum as well.

Here's another question. If Jakob Poeltl is so good, why does every team he start for suddenly suck? The only time he's made the playoffs as a starter for his team was 2019 on the Spurs when they lost in the first round, a series where he averaged 7.3 PPG, 7.7 RPG, and 1.3 APG in 25.3 MPG. Maybe it has something to do with him providing zero floor spacing and his inability to hit free throws?

Because everything about him being great at, and how much winning plays he makes, is about slightly-better than your average big men when you factor in the volume of which he is capable of do it at. And his weaknesses are glaring at league worst level.

It's nice that he's a good passer, but when you average 2.5 assists is it really that big of a deal? it's certainly not going to change the dynamic of the game and how teams play against your offense. Yeah he makes 65% of his shots around the rim, but he averages 11 points a game? I'll be generous and make him the league leader in field goal percentage at 75%, what does that get you? 1 more point a game? whoopie do. Does it matter if his FG% drops down to 50? he averages 10 intead of 11, who gives a ****?

All he is is a serviceable big man with a reputation. His biggest asset is still he's 7 feet. His other strength are not strong enough to separate him from the rest of the pack.

[Scase]

Minutes is a very poor way to evaluate players now because minutes have been cut for everyone. Stars are barely playing over 30 minutes now.

There were only 17 Cs total who played over 30 minutes and most were just barely over 30. Unless you're an impact star C, most starting caliber players will be in the 26-32 range.

So how about straight up performance vs other starters then?



He's below average to average, in every single aspect aside from his touch around the rim, which to be fair, is very good. Other than that, he plays less and and puts up worse stats. He is below average for a starting centre.

[Scase]

Honestly, I have a hard time trying to figure out if some of your posts are serious lately. I'm willing to pay $10k for a Rolls Royce. Let me know anyone interested in that deal.

Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary. A non-lotto FRP is a reasonable price for a role-player starter (e.g. KCP, Brown, PJ Tucker) depending on contract situation, etc.

Gafford has 1 more year left on his deal after this one.

A lotto pick this year is not equal to a lotto pick in other years. At #8, you're probably looking at someone picked around 20 most years.

You realize they traded a 2024 pick right?

The Mavs send Richaun Holmes and a 2024 first-round pick (via Oklahoma City) to the Wizards for Gafford.

The pick was acquired via a separate deal between the Mavs and Oklahoma City Thunder in which the Mavs sent a 2028 pick swap to the Thunder for a 2024 first-round pick.

[PushDaRock]

Gafford cost Dallas a late FRP. I think Poeltl is the better player, but Gafford was also under contract for 3 more years at a reasonable salary. A non-lotto FRP is a reasonable price for a role-player starter (e.g. KCP, Brown, PJ Tucker) depending on contract situation, etc.

Gafford has 1 more year left on his deal after this one.

A lotto pick this year is not equal to a lotto pick in other years. At #8, you're probably looking at someone picked around 20 most years.

You realize they traded a 2024 pick right?

The Mavs send Richaun Holmes and a 2024 first-round pick (via Oklahoma City) to the Wizards for Gafford.

The pick was acquired via a separate deal between the Mavs and Oklahoma City Thunder in which the Mavs sent a 2028 pick swap to the Thunder for a 2024 first-round pick.

I was obviously talking about our pick, hence the mention of pick #8.

[ATLTimekeeper]

Bobby's quote seems so strange considering his most successful draft was Poeltl, Siakam, VanVleet.

Idk. Not that strange. Its in line with masais quote of not really being interested in bringing in 3 rooks as well lol.

If we had all 3, a trade for at least one of them would definitely have happened imo.

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Technically, they had 2 picks as VV was an undrafted FA.

Still, a rookie. I don't even disagree with the thought process, but they literally just dumped a pantload of non-NBA players on the court to tank, and claim to be patient in their rebuilding next year.

[nikster]

I don't understand how I can make this more clear. He does not objectively suck, he has a skill set that is limited and not fit for the modern NBA. Thereby making him less valuable, and less desirable to other teams. Jak looks fine here, because we havent had a C for like 4 years. Please I beg of you, go watch games that involve teams other than the Raptors. There are virtually no successful teams that run a starting centre of his calibre/skill set, and the handful that do, balance it out with minor things like a player who just came in 3rd in MVP voting.

But please do keep trying to make this as basic as a convo as possible, because you have zero ability to be objective about raptor players.

Wow, your telling me championship contenders that have a role player at Centre position need lots of talent at other positions? That's true for any position or skill set.

How can you be so possibly close to getting the point, and still be completely missing it, is honestly impressive.

Yes, that is exactly what I'm telling you. I'm also telling you THE RAPTORS LACK THE "LOTS OF TALENT" AT OTHER POSITIONS PART. Which is why the trade was stupid and he was a bad fit. We do not have the ability to make up for his short comings.

The teams who have players with the same shortcomings at their C spot, have the talent to make up for it. Therefore, he is a bad fit here.

I literally cannot spell it out any more straight forward. Either you comprehend this, or you don't. If it's the latter just don't bother responding cause this is going nowhere.

"There are virtually no successful teams that run a starting centre of his calibre/skill set, and the handful that do, [b]balance it out with minor things like a player who just came in 3rd in MVP voting." Do you realize how stupid that comment is, how it's a statement independent of the Raptors current situation, and how it applies to teams with stretch bigs too?

There a virtually no successful teams that run a starting centre with a stretch big skill set. The ones that do have a top MVP candidate at other positions (Boston, OKC)) or their stretch big is the MVP (Nuggets)

[nikster]

Minutes is a very poor way to evaluate players now because minutes have been cut for everyone. Stars are barely playing over 30 minutes now.

There were only 17 Cs total who played over 30 minutes and most were just barely over 30. Unless you're an impact star C, most starting caliber players will be in the 26-32 range.

So how about straight up performance vs other starters then?



He's below average to average, in every single aspect aside from his touch around the rim, which to be fair, is very good. Other than that, he plays less and and puts up worse stats. He is below average for a starting centre.

Average would be less useful stat than Median here. What would that look like without a crazy outlier like Jokic?

[TheFutureMM]

I see a lot of conversation about the trade that I haven't read yet. Just gonna say, I'm more happy than upset that we gave up the pick this year.

Do I like what we got back from the trade? No. Would I preferred to have our pick this year as opposed to Jakob? Sure. Do I like that we have access to our own pick in a much better projected draft next year? Very much so.