Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[ConSarnit]

PTSD is treatable and we have done better than Ewil Awil and giving Alonzo 10 mil. Stop the fake comparisons. Vince was twice or more the player Siakam is-was. The comparison is brutally dishonest. The Rudy Gay trade is a better comparison. That and Lowry were first moves in a process that brought the Larry OB to Toronto. That is on the resume no denying. Comparing Masai to Babcock VC deal is revisionist history with added tabloid fakery. You should know better.

Vince also had 2.5 years left on his deal. Siakam was traded as an expiring. If Vince were traded today he would have commanded close to the package Donovan Mitchell returned (slightly lesser because of the whole quitting thing).

Vince was a 27 year old, 5x all-star with 2.5 years left on his contract. Yet we still got a better package for an expiring Siakam. That’s how atrocious the Vince deal was.

[brownbobcat]

Brooklyn in the mid teens weren’t an inch from the finals my guy.

Read what I wrote again.

Also, we made a pick in both 2022 AND 2023. Koloko had an unexpected illness, and Dick looks like he could be a solid player.

Koloko was not exactly a rotation lock before his illness, his career could have gone either way. Still way too soon to pronounce Dick a success. My point was that they can't be absolved for not picking unavailable players when they put themselves in that position in the first place by trading down (2022) and trading away 2nd rounders (2023).

Come on man. We’re now at you bitching at the one first rounder in a decade that Masai missed on.

Like i am sorry, but trying to suggest our FO is anything less than great at finding talent is just so far from reality.

They deserve all the flowers they get when they are great, but when they haven't been great in 5-6 years, they get criticism - that's how it works. I still believe in their ability to right the ship, but it took them too damn long to stop shooting holes in their own vessel.

[brownbobcat]

I think the front office did the right thing. They chose not to max Fred. You keep acting like the front office wanted Fred back if he was maxed. Clearly they didn’t. They would’ve wanted him back on their terms. Likely 100 mil over 4.

No, I'm refuting the position that FVV leaving was this curveball that derailed an otherwise good path.

The only thing worse than him leaving for nothing would've been maxing him. It would have solved none of their key problems with Siakam/OG and introduced an albatross contract into the mix for a guy that didn't mesh well with their young star.

You’re conflating two issues. A) Fred leaving. B) maxing Fred.

Fred leaving derailed the team. Maxing Fred would also have derailed the team. On that we agree.

The path I’m suggesting was bringing him back at the rumoured 100ish mil over 4 year price point. Aka, not a max contract. Fred chose to grab the cash with Houston and have one more contract after it.

A) That would never have happened and they should've known that.
B) Even if it did happen, the team would still not have been good enough and had to blow it up anyway.

At best, you're talking about a situation where they have a slightly better asset in hand, a worse chance at a top-6 pick and likely worse situation infighting with Barnes. I prefer the current situation.

[YogurtProducer]

Brooklyn in the mid teens weren’t an inch from the finals my guy.

Read what I wrote again

Or you can read what I wrote again - I was talking about the mid-2010's Nets which was not the KD nets.

Koloko was not exactly a rotation lock before his illness, his career could have gone either way. Still way too soon to pronounce Dick a success. My point was that they can't be absolved for not picking unavailable players when they put themselves in that position in the first place by trading down (2022) and trading away 2nd rounders (2023).

Sure - no rookie can be considered a rotation lock then. He was however one of the best players in the late 1st / early 2nd. IIRC, he had the best plus/minus among any rookie and was starting and had impressive defensive numbers for a raw rookie.

They deserve all the flowers they get when they are great, but when they haven't been great in 5-6 years, they get criticism - that's how it works. I still believe in their ability to right the ship, but it took them too damn long to stop shooting holes in their own vessel.

and again, you cant say they have not been great in 5-6 years in finding "gems" (which you really mean late 1sts / early 2nds) when they have not even had the opportunity to make those picks.

Your entire argument is "we have not had a draft steal in years - just ignore all the reasoning as to why and just blindly fling hate at Masai for it".

Firsts that were traded for the championship / rid us of DMC, a singular miss in Flyyn, getting 2 lottery picks, and then Koloko getting sick sums up our last 5 years of drafting in meaningful spots.

Bitch about the Poeltl trade all you want - but that trade has nothing to do with what you have complained about here for like 3 weeks now.

[HangTime]

Brooklyn in the mid teens weren’t an inch from the finals my guy.

Read what I wrote again.

Also, we made a pick in both 2022 AND 2023. Koloko had an unexpected illness, and Dick looks like he could be a solid player.

Koloko was not exactly a rotation lock before his illness, his career could have gone either way. Still way too soon to pronounce Dick a success. My point was that they can't be absolved for not picking unavailable players when they put themselves in that position in the first place by trading down (2022) and trading away 2nd rounders (2023).

Come on man. We’re now at you bitching at the one first rounder in a decade that Masai missed on.

Like i am sorry, but trying to suggest our FO is anything less than great at finding talent is just so far from reality.

They deserve all the flowers they get when they are great, but when they haven't been great in 5-6 years, they get criticism - that's how it works. I still believe in their ability to right the ship, but it took them too damn long to stop shooting holes in their own vessel.

I don't know about everyone else, but Koloko was the 2nd most player i was excited about during the summer.
Was excited to see what he Scottie could do together. I swear, he never set an illegal screen his rookie year, and he set a docent amount.

I hope if he's cleared to play, we offer him a spot.

[Merit]

No, I'm refuting the position that FVV leaving was this curveball that derailed an otherwise good path.

The only thing worse than him leaving for nothing would've been maxing him. It would have solved none of their key problems with Siakam/OG and introduced an albatross contract into the mix for a guy that didn't mesh well with their young star.

You’re conflating two issues. A) Fred leaving. B) maxing Fred.

Fred leaving derailed the team. Maxing Fred would also have derailed the team. On that we agree.

The path I’m suggesting was bringing him back at the rumoured 100ish mil over 4 year price point. Aka, not a max contract. Fred chose to grab the cash with Houston and have one more contract after it.

A) That would never have happened and they should've known that.
B) Even if it did happen, the team would still not have been good enough and had to blow it up anyway.

At best, you're talking about a situation where they have a slightly better asset in hand, a worse chance at a top-6 pick and likely worse situation infighting with Barnes. I prefer the current situation.

I and others have already addressed the points you have made here.

[brownbobcat]

Or you can read what I wrote again - I was talking about the mid-2010's Nets which was not the KD nets.

My mistake, I thought you meant the current Nets made atrocious decisions. As for the KG/Pierce Nets, yes those were clearly awful decisions from an awful GM - with the caveat that ownership also pushed to be competitive immediately with the relocation from NJ.

But as bad as they were, at least they didn't double down after the mistake was clear. Started fresh with coaches & FO.
Traded 80 yr old KG/Lopez/Bogdanovic --> Levert/Allen/DLo and found Dinwiddie and Joe Harris off the scrap heap.
And yes, they took full advantage of being in Brooklyn and cleared enough cap for Kyrie & KD.

Sure - no rookie can be considered a rotation lock then. He was however one of the best players in the late 1st / early 2nd. IIRC, he had the best plus/minus among any rookie and was starting and had impressive defensive numbers for a raw rookie.

and again, you cant say they have not been great in 5-6 years in finding "gems" (which you really mean late 1sts / early 2nds) when they have not even had the opportunity to make those picks.

Your entire argument is "we have not had a draft steal in years - just ignore all the reasoning as to why and just blindly fling hate at Masai for it".

Firsts that were traded for the championship / rid us of DMC, a singular miss in Flyyn, getting 2 lottery picks, and then Koloko getting sick sums up our last 5 years of drafting in meaningful spots.

Bitch about the Poeltl trade all you want - but that trade has nothing to do with what you have complained about here for like 3 weeks now.

The issue is not the specific selection of Koloko, Dick or even Flynn - it's the aggregate problem of coming up empty on the margins (which includes the undrafted and UFAs). The paucity of drafting opportunity post-2020 is itself part of the problem for which the FO is solely responsible. They should have been looking for more picks and not the other way around.

As for highlighting the past 5-6 years, that was in response to a claim that they'd only been bad for the past 24 months. And that simply isn't true, the costs of the championship stopped being an excuse a while ago. There have been useful UFAs available for much longer than that, there have been opportunities to trade for extra picks. Nets got 3 2nd rounders for Royce O'Neale and the FO couldn't get anything except cash savings for Schroder? They make way too many accommodations.

[brownbobcat]

You’re conflating two issues. A) Fred leaving. B) maxing Fred.

Fred leaving derailed the team. Maxing Fred would also have derailed the team. On that we agree.

The path I’m suggesting was bringing him back at the rumoured 100ish mil over 4 year price point. Aka, not a max contract. Fred chose to grab the cash with Houston and have one more contract after it.

A) That would never have happened and they should've known that.
B) Even if it did happen, the team would still not have been good enough and had to blow it up anyway.

At best, you're talking about a situation where they have a slightly better asset in hand, a worse chance at a top-6 pick and likely worse situation infighting with Barnes. I prefer the current situation.

I and others have already addressed the points you have made here.

Then show me where, because I haven't seen it.

Your original point was that trading for Poeltl was a sound, logical move because keeping that core would've been a good thing. That's a poor take for which I haven't seen any solid foundation. Even if you'd kept FVV at a reasonable salary - reasonable, not imaginary - Koloko doesn't get sick, Siakam loves reuniting with Yak so much that he doesn't care about a max extension, it's a .500 team at best and the outlook is even worse than now.

And I can already hear it now - well, what about the 48 wins in 2021? Well, since that time, none of the vets or young guys got better except for Barnes and a big part of his emergence was arguably the departure of FVV. The team fired the win-now coach who milked everything from that squad (months before FVV even left) in favour of a development-focused coach. Short of a miracle, nothing would've turned this squad around this year.

[YogurtProducer]

Or you can read what I wrote again - I was talking about the mid-2010's Nets which was not the KD nets.

My mistake, I thought you meant the current Nets made atrocious decisions. As for the KG/Pierce Nets, yes those were clearly awful decisions from an awful GM - with the caveat that ownership also pushed to be competitive immediately with the relocation from NJ.

But as bad as they were, at least they didn't double down after the mistake was clear. Started fresh with coaches & FO.
Traded 80 yr old KG/Lopez/Bogdanovic --> Levert/Allen/DLo and found Dinwiddie and Joe Harris off the scrap heap.
And yes, they took full advantage of being in Brooklyn and cleared enough cap for Kyrie & KD.

Sure - no rookie can be considered a rotation lock then. He was however one of the best players in the late 1st / early 2nd. IIRC, he had the best plus/minus among any rookie and was starting and had impressive defensive numbers for a raw rookie.

and again, you cant say they have not been great in 5-6 years in finding "gems" (which you really mean late 1sts / early 2nds) when they have not even had the opportunity to make those picks.

Your entire argument is "we have not had a draft steal in years - just ignore all the reasoning as to why and just blindly fling hate at Masai for it".

Firsts that were traded for the championship / rid us of DMC, a singular miss in Flyyn, getting 2 lottery picks, and then Koloko getting sick sums up our last 5 years of drafting in meaningful spots.

Bitch about the Poeltl trade all you want - but that trade has nothing to do with what you have complained about here for like 3 weeks now.

The issue is not the specific selection of Koloko, Dick or even Flynn - it's the aggregate problem of coming up empty on the margins (which includes the undrafted and UFAs). The paucity of drafting opportunity post-2020 is itself part of the problem for which the FO is solely responsible. They should have been looking for more picks and not the other way around.

As for highlighting the past 5-6 years, that was in response to a claim that they'd only been bad for the past 24 months. And that simply isn't true, the costs of the championship stopped being an excuse a while ago. There have been useful UFAs available for much longer than that, there have been opportunities to trade for extra picks. Nets got 3 2nd rounders for Royce O'Neale and the FO couldn't get anything except cash savings for Schroder? They make way too many accommodations.

alright we’re done here.

Read what others are posting before replying. You can’t seem to figure out what others are saying.

[YogurtProducer]

A) That would never have happened and they should've known that.
B) Even if it did happen, the team would still not have been good enough and had to blow it up anyway.

At best, you're talking about a situation where they have a slightly better asset in hand, a worse chance at a top-6 pick and likely worse situation infighting with Barnes. I prefer the current situation.

I and others have already addressed the points you have made here.

Then show me where, because I haven't seen it.

Your original point was that trading for Poeltl was a sound, logical move because keeping that core would've been a good thing. That's a poor take for which I haven't seen any solid foundation. Even if you'd kept FVV at a reasonable salary - reasonable, not imaginary - Koloko doesn't get sick, Siakam loves reuniting with Yak so much that he doesn't care about a max extension, it's a .500 team at best and the outlook is even worse than now.

And I can already hear it now - well, what about the 48 wins in 2021? Well, since that time, none of the vets or young guys got better except for Barnes and a big part of his emergence was arguably the departure of FVV. The team fired the win-now coach who milked everything from that squad (months before FVV even left) in favour of a development-focused coach. Short of a miracle, nothing would've turned this squad around this year.

Ah yes - the team that won 48 games and added Jakob had a .500 win ceiling.

That’s why these conversations are idiotic. People like you fail to see that .500 was the absolute floor, not the ceiling.

[brownbobcat]

And I can already hear it now - well, what about the 48 wins in 2021?

Ah yes - the team that won 48 games and added Jakob had a .500 win ceiling.

That’s why these conversations are idiotic. People like you fail to see that .500 was the absolute floor, not the ceiling.

Annddddd .... right on cue. Openly predicting this ridiculous line of logic works like Candyman, apparently.

LeBron, Steph and Kawhi used to carry teams to rings and now they can't. You see, there's an identifiable trend because that's how time works. There's a direction.

The team that won 48 games did not add Poeltl.

The team that added Poelt was a middling 10th place team through 56 games, couldn't shoot, had zero depth and saw little to no individual improvement.

The team that added Poeltl had a painfully obvious vet salary crunch, put those same vets on the trading block but didn't like the offers, fired its championship-winning coach as soon as the season ended and got publicly called out as 'selfish' by the boss.

Only the delusional would think that team had 48 wins as an upside simply by adding a lower-tier C. Basketball is not a series of random occurrences, there's no magical regression to the mean when a team's fundamental weaknesses are exposed.

None of this is just my opinion, we saw exactly what transpired and .500 wasn't the floor. We ended up with an extremely predictable, disjointed hot mess not unlike your posts.

[will]

Because Masai waited too long to make a deal. It's not that deep. Don't need an entire thread about this.

[OakleyDokely]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

[alan_156]

Moving on from FVV and Pascal was the right move but both done a year too late. Period.

[Scase]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

The dragic deal was bad, everyone still remembers that. Bad is bad, good is good.

[Psubs]

Moving on from FVV and Pascal was the right move but both done a year too late. Period.

Exactly.

The cap space saved on next re-signing Siakam will be used to re-sign the much younger IQ. I saw a story that SA should look at IQ and try and take him from us.

Maxey is a year younger than IQ, they should offer him the max they can but Philly likely matches.

[Scase]

Moving on from FVV and Pascal was the right move but both done a year too late. Period.

Exactly.

The cap space saved on next re-signing Siakam will be used to re-sign the much younger IQ. I saw a story that SA should look at IQ and try and take him from us.

Maxey is a year younger than IQ, they should offer him the max they can but Philly likely matches.

And we will do the same, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell Masai wouldn't match any offer for IQ.

[OakleyDokely]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

The dragic deal was bad, everyone still remembers that. Bad is bad, good is good.

Players are different than picks though. I can guarantee that if the Raps select an allstar (or close) level player at 19, right or wrong, it changes the perception of the deal.

[agkagk]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

The dragic deal was bad, everyone still remembers that. Bad is bad, good is good.

Players are different than picks though. I can guarantee that if the Raps select an allstar (or close) level player at 19, right or wrong, it changes the perception of the deal.

Trade all our pricks and brown for kuminga

Barrett quick kuminga Barnes Jakob

Problem solved.

[Scase]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

The dragic deal was bad, everyone still remembers that. Bad is bad, good is good.

Players are different than picks though. I can guarantee that if the Raps select an allstar (or close) level player at 19, right or wrong, it changes the perception of the deal.

I've said this multiple times, and I'll say it again. The player selected has no bearing on the quality of the trade, unless you trade for that specific player to be picked on your behalf.

Picks have inherent value. Trading a prime lebron straight up for the 41st pick that was used on Jokic is still a horrendous trade, no matter if you got Jokic. Vasquez is seen as a great trade because he turned nothing into something, the Siakam trade is bordering on trading something into nothing.

Vasquez was traded for the 23rd and 46th pick. Siakam so far has been traded for the 29th, 19th, and likely a 20th-ish pick. Not really that far off, and Siakam is 50x the player Vasquez is/was.