Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[OakleyDokely]

Yeah if you get good players. My point is, that if you trade Siakam for a 1st OA pick, or trade him for 3 picks in the 20's one of those is objectively a better trade than the other.

Trading for 3 picks that have a low % chance of actually playing out isn't all of a sudden a good trade because you got lucky on one of them.

Again, trading prime lebron for a SRP that turns into Jokic is a bad trade no matter how you look at it. Trading him for 5 top 5 picks that all bust is still a better trade. You can flip those top 5 picks into other good players as they have inherent value, no one is sending you anything of value for a pick in the early to late 20's.

Unless you think you can go and convince the bucks to send us Giannis for a couple early SRPs cause you know "The trade isn't bad until you see the players you draft". It's utter nonsense. Picks hold value irrespective of who is inevitably picked with them. This is not a controversial or even subjective statement.

I think a lot of people just overestimated what a 30 year old looking for 1/4 billion dollars was going to bring back.

Expecting a superstar package for a non superstar was never realistic. He isn't Lebron. His isn't that tier of player. No team was giving up a top prospect or top pick for him. The Raps were always going to get a combination of mid-late picks and B/C tier prospects unless they traded him when he was in his mid 20s. If this type of package is unacceptable, you keep him and re-sign him.

Pretty much was everyone was saying all along. People who were against trading Siakam was because they knew what the receiving package would entail.

It makes sense why there was such a group of people trying to get rid of him for so long... they thought he was going to return multiple lottery picks when that was never feasible. If it were - I would have signed up to trade him years ago.

If you look at most of these deals involving allstars or near allstars, including the ones made by teams like UTA, OKC, BRK etc -- they're mostly getting back projected mid-late picks in return. Maybe something weird happens and a contending team underachieves and you get lucky when a pick or two end up in the lottery, but no team is knowingly giving up a top 5-10 pick or potential superstar prospect. The teams trading the allstar are typically getting back picks from contenders who are good to great teams and they're basically hoping these teams fail, like the Raps will be hoping IND fails in 2026.

Whether one of the deals works out in your favor will depend on how well you draft and whether you get some luck by the other team sucking for some reason.

[brownbobcat]

I think a lot of people just overestimated what a 30 year old looking for 1/4 billion dollars was going to bring back.

Expecting a superstar package for a non superstar was never realistic. He isn't Lebron. His isn't that tier of player. No team was giving up a top prospect or top pick for him. The Raps were always going to get a combination of mid-late picks and B/C tier prospects unless they traded him when he was in his mid 20s. If this type of package is unacceptable, you keep him and re-sign him.

They got B/C tier prospects back for Siakam?

[OakleyDokely]

I think a lot of people just overestimated what a 30 year old looking for 1/4 billion dollars was going to bring back.

Expecting a superstar package for a non superstar was never realistic. He isn't Lebron. His isn't that tier of player. No team was giving up a top prospect or top pick for him. The Raps were always going to get a combination of mid-late picks and B/C tier prospects unless they traded him when he was in his mid 20s. If this type of package is unacceptable, you keep him and re-sign him.

They got B/C tier prospects back for Siakam?

indirectly with Ochai in the 2nd deal.

[brownbobcat]

I think a lot of people just overestimated what a 30 year old looking for 1/4 billion dollars was going to bring back.

Expecting a superstar package for a non superstar was never realistic. He isn't Lebron. His isn't that tier of player. No team was giving up a top prospect or top pick for him. The Raps were always going to get a combination of mid-late picks and B/C tier prospects unless they traded him when he was in his mid 20s. If this type of package is unacceptable, you keep him and re-sign him.

They got B/C tier prospects back for Siakam?

indirectly with Ochai in the 2nd deal.

I said what I said. He's a Malachi-level prospect.

[OakleyDokely]

They got B/C tier prospects back for Siakam?

indirectly with Ochai in the 2nd deal.

I said what I said. He's a Malachi-level prospect.

which is a B/C level prospect.

[brownbobcat]

indirectly with Ochai in the 2nd deal.

I said what I said. He's a Malachi-level prospect.

which is a B/C level prospect.

Come on, now. Stop. I can't be laughing like this at work.

[OakleyDokely]

I said what I said. He's a Malachi-level prospect.

which is a B/C level prospect.

Come on, now. Stop. I can't be laughing like this at work.

A recent 1st round pick whose averaged 20 minutes per game and has been a rotation player on two separate teams in his first two years in the league is that level of prospect. When I say B/C level, I mean a young guy who has the potential to be a rotation player, but is unlikely to become a starter (or better) player.

[Ell Curry]

In the end, if the Raps hit on one or more of the picks, the deal will be looked upon fondly by most fans, if they don't hit, it will be viewed negatively.

People still talk about the Greivis Vasquez deal because they drafted OG and Norm. If they drafted Tyler Lydon and Joe Young instead, no one would remember the deal.

Yeah, Masai put himself in a bad position and the only way to get decent value for Siakam was to get some picks and outperform expectations on them, which he has done repeatedly here, and he's gotta do it again. Even if we don't get a 2nd star, the difference between securing say a Quickley or Avdija solid young player with one of the 2 Pacers picks and say a good backup 5 like Mitchell Robinson/Gafford/Zubac and not hitting on either is pretty big.

If we can come out of the 2026 draft with good picks at these spots and look something like this:

Poeltl-Pacers2024
Barnes-
Barrett-Raptors2026
Raptors2024 or 25-Dick
Quickley-Pacers2026

we should have financial flexibility and at least go about 8-9 deep with only Poeltl over 26, and he should still be alright to play 25 minutes a game at age 30. It's not particularly high ceiling unless our own pick we don't send to the Spurs (or please god neither as we tank next year) is an all-star level player, but it does set up say a Barrett + Picks for a star deal pretty nicely.

If we don't get enough serious young talent with the 4 (assuming we do convey a first to the Spurs) firsts the next 3 years, then I think we're starting to move into the zone where trading Barnes for 4 firsts, 3 swaps and a young talent or 2 and a 2-4 year tank like OKC managed in 2, but getting SGA for Paul George along with all those picks was like a 99th percentile return and shortened their tank by at least a couple years, and they drafted well.

[Zeno]

part of the return is the flexibility so once we see what is done with that flexibility, we'll have a better idea of the totality of what they got back in this trade.

[will]

which is a B/C level prospect.

Come on, now. Stop. I can't be laughing like this at work.

A recent 1st round pick whose averaged 20 minutes per game and has been a rotation player on two separate teams in his first two years in the league is that level of prospect. When I say B/C level, I mean a young guy who has the potential to be a rotation player, but is unlikely to become a starter (or better) player.

Wouldn't bank on Ochai being a rotation player for any longer if he can't knock down the 3 ball.

It's basically playing 5 onn 4 out there with him on the floor.

[brownbobcat]

which is a B/C level prospect.

Come on, now. Stop. I can't be laughing like this at work.

A recent 1st round pick whose averaged 20 minutes per game and has been a rotation player on two separate teams in his first two years in the league is that level of prospect. When I say B/C level, I mean a young guy who has the potential to be a rotation player, but is unlikely to become a starter (or better) player.

If you say so, I won't die on this hill but to me:

A - star
B - starter
C - rotation player (5-8th guy)
D - end of bench, journeyman drifting around or out of a job if he's a jerk

Barnes is A-level potential, young OG would've been a high B, Gradey would be B/C, and Ds would be guys like Flynn/Nwora/Agbaji, etc. Not saying it's impossible to improve, I just haven't been impressed at all.

[YogurtProducer]

Mans out here talking about Ls and still defending the trade for PoeltLLL.

Not defending - simply pointing out your logic is broken.

I guess we'll never know because the NBA ended after the 2022-23 season and they never played games afterward that would've proven .500 was only their floor.

So we have unarguable proof that team won 48, and 41 games, yet you wanna set in stone that 41 wins was the ceiling but anything above it "we will never know".

Grow up.

Yeah, FVV was going to add 10 wins to this squad. He didn't do that in '23, but totally would've done it a year later and played nice with Scottie once he got paid.

Raptors lost 16 more games and the Rockets won 19 more. Might be time to re-evaluate your opinions my man. It is cringey to still be trying to push this "FVV sucks" narrative.

[brownbobcat]

Mans out here talking about Ls and still defending the trade for PoeltLLL.

Not defending - simply pointing out your logic is broken.

I guess we'll never know because the NBA ended after the 2022-23 season and they never played games afterward that would've proven .500 was only their floor.

So we have unarguable proof that team won 48, and 41 games, yet you wanna set in stone that 41 wins was the ceiling but anything above it "we will never know".

Grow up.

I'm being facetious about "we'll never know"- the extremely obvious implication is that we actually DO know what happened since the NBA didn't end in 2023 and the pattern went 48, 41, 25 (12-20 before trading OG). It's funny how you keep focusing on the oldest, most irrelevant season instead of the recent one right in front of your face.

Raptors lost 16 more games and the Rockets won 19 more. Might be time to re-evaluate your opinions my man. It is cringey to still be trying to push this "FVV sucks" narrative.

And if you think that was all FVV, then either you're clueless or Masai is, because any player who can generate a 16-19 win difference is worth the max. Nowhere have I said FVV sucks, but he is not LBJ reincarnated in a 5'11" light-skin package.

[will]

Mans out here talking about Ls and still defending the trade for PoeltLLL.

Not defending - simply pointing out your logic is broken.

I guess we'll never know because the NBA ended after the 2022-23 season and they never played games afterward that would've proven .500 was only their floor.

So we have unarguable proof that team won 48, and 41 games, yet you wanna set in stone that 41 wins was the ceiling but anything above it "we will never know".

Grow up.

I'm being facetious - the extremely obvious implication is that we actually DO know what happened since the NBA didn't end in 2023 and the pattern went 48, 41, 25 (12-20 before trading OG). It's funny how you keep focusing on the oldest, most irrelevant season instead of the recent one right in front of your face.

Raptors lost 16 more games and the Rockets won 19 more. Might be time to re-evaluate your opinions my man. It is cringey to still be trying to push this "FVV sucks" narrative.

And if you think that was all FVV, then either you're clueless or Masai is, because any player who can generate a 16-19 win difference is worth the max.

We actually allowed to type those 3 letters?

[Merit]

The dragic deal was bad, everyone still remembers that. Bad is bad, good is good.

Players are different than picks though. I can guarantee that if the Raps select an allstar (or close) level player at 19, right or wrong, it changes the perception of the deal.

Trade all our pricks and brown for kuminga

Barrett quick kuminga Barnes Jakob

Problem solved.

There are definitely a lot of pricks in this thread lol.

I would rather move Brown+ for wiggins and get some picks for our trouble.

[Merit]

Come on, now. Stop. I can't be laughing like this at work.

A recent 1st round pick whose averaged 20 minutes per game and has been a rotation player on two separate teams in his first two years in the league is that level of prospect. When I say B/C level, I mean a young guy who has the potential to be a rotation player, but is unlikely to become a starter (or better) player.

Wouldn't bank on Ochai being a rotation player for any longer if he can't knock down the 3 ball.

It's basically playing 5 onn 4 out there with him on the floor.

I’m pretty sure that shooting improvement is precisely what we’re banking on, given his ability to hit from the corners previously.

[S.W.A.N]

Players are different than picks though. I can guarantee that if the Raps select an allstar (or close) level player at 19, right or wrong, it changes the perception of the deal.

Trade all our pricks and brown for kuminga

Barrett quick kuminga Barnes Jakob

Problem solved.

There are definitely a lot of pricks in this thread lol.

I would rather move Brown+ for wiggins and get some picks for our trouble.

I'd be very intrigued by this deal. Especially if we could snag one of their cheap young guys as well like Trace Jackson Davis.

[Merit]

A) That would never have happened and they should've known that.
B) Even if it did happen, the team would still not have been good enough and had to blow it up anyway.

At best, you're talking about a situation where they have a slightly better asset in hand, a worse chance at a top-6 pick and likely worse situation infighting with Barnes. I prefer the current situation.

I and others have already addressed the points you have made here.

Then show me where, because I haven't seen it.

Your original point was that trading for Poeltl was a sound, logical move because keeping that core would've been a good thing. That's a poor take for which I haven't seen any solid foundation. Even if you'd kept FVV at a reasonable salary - reasonable, not imaginary - Koloko doesn't get sick, Siakam loves reuniting with Yak so much that he doesn't care about a max extension, it's a .500 team at best and the outlook is even worse than now.

And I can already hear it now - well, what about the 48 wins in 2021? Well, since that time, none of the vets or young guys got better except for Barnes and a big part of his emergence was arguably the departure of FVV. The team fired the win-now coach who milked everything from that squad (months before FVV even left) in favour of a development-focused coach. Short of a miracle, nothing would've turned this squad around this year.

This man is still going.

We can’t possibly know with 100% certainty what could’ve happened, because it didn’t. Neither of us can. However - adding a 5 win player to a team (Fred) and hoping for growth from the rookie of the year (Scottie) and actually having a 3 win big to rely on (Poeltl) and a big with defensive potential to develop (Koloko) and all our picks minus this year’s (the aim was to make the playoffs so conveying a mid pick in a below mid draft) makes sense as an alternative.

Getting rid of Nick Nurse and replacing him with a coach insistent on moving the ball is another indication of where their mind was at. Fred would not have been able to play hero ball as it wouldn’t have been tolerated.

Fred chose the money and didn’t like Scottie having the limelight (golden boy comment and subsequent interviews substantiate this imo).

It’s not rocket science. The logic is sound. It didn’t happen. Let’s move on.

[Merit]

Not defending - simply pointing out your logic is broken.


So we have unarguable proof that team won 48, and 41 games, yet you wanna set in stone that 41 wins was the ceiling but anything above it "we will never know".

Grow up.

I'm being facetious - the extremely obvious implication is that we actually DO know what happened since the NBA didn't end in 2023 and the pattern went 48, 41, 25 (12-20 before trading OG). It's funny how you keep focusing on the oldest, most irrelevant season instead of the recent one right in front of your face.

Raptors lost 16 more games and the Rockets won 19 more. Might be time to re-evaluate your opinions my man. It is cringey to still be trying to push this "FVV sucks" narrative.

And if you think that was all FVV, then either you're clueless or Masai is, because any player who can generate a 16-19 win difference is worth the max.

We actually allowed to type those 3 letters?

FYI FVV is NMP so PLS STFU ASAP TY. L8R H8R PLS don’t HMU B/C IDC. CYA! (Jk jk, lol)

[Scase]

A recent 1st round pick whose averaged 20 minutes per game and has been a rotation player on two separate teams in his first two years in the league is that level of prospect. When I say B/C level, I mean a young guy who has the potential to be a rotation player, but is unlikely to become a starter (or better) player.

Wouldn't bank on Ochai being a rotation player for any longer if he can't knock down the 3 ball.

It's basically playing 5 onn 4 out there with him on the floor.

I’m pretty sure that shooting improvement is precisely what we’re banking on, given his ability to hit from the corners previously.

Yeah, when has drafting for, trading for, or signing players who can't shoot and thinking we can teach them to shoot, ever backfired right?