Siakam trade for basically nothing is now showing its effect

[MiamiSPX]

True, but even then it was a 3yr offer so FVV had to give something up.

I think Siakam gets a 4 year max.

That's what teams like PHI and DET can offer, and IND matches it. Only way I see him getting 5 is if he threatens to leave and IND has no choice.

I would think the 5 year max was probably part of the discussions when the trade happened - reason why Pascal was trying to direct himself to a particular team that would be willing to pay the 5 year max.

If Indy doesn't offer it, he probably walks to Sixers or Pistons for the 4 year max, just on principle alone.

Yeah, I am pretty sure it's the 5-year. Haliburton said they were in a position to acquire a star AND keep him. So either he knows the FO will offer the max, or this was his way of holding their feet to the fire. Either way, Siakam is getting 5 years IMO.

[JB7]

I think Siakam gets a 4 year max.

That's what teams like PHI and DET can offer, and IND matches it. Only way I see him getting 5 is if he threatens to leave and IND has no choice.

I would think the 5 year max was probably part of the discussions when the trade happened - reason why Pascal was trying to direct himself to a particular team that would be willing to pay the 5 year max.

If Indy doesn't offer it, he probably walks to Sixers or Pistons for the 4 year max, just on principle alone.

Yeah, I am pretty sure it's the 5-year. Haliburton said they were in a position to acquire a star AND keep him. So either he knows the FO will offer the max, or this was his way of holding their feet to the fire. Either way, Siakam is getting 5 years IMO.

Exactly, if the Indy FO doesn't offer the 5 year max, not only does Pascal probably walk, Hali would be pissed and it would be further reason for him to ask out. Trading for Pascal was all about keeping Hali happy.

[bballsparkin]

The biggest factor is his age. IND is going to be paying close to 50 mill a year for his 30-34 years and teams, especially recently, have been reluctant to give huge money to guys in their 30s who aren't superstars. If we was in his mid 20s, there would've been a lot more teams interested.

If he was mid 20s he would still be a Raptor.

[bballsparkin]

I'm not a Pascal hater and I wish him well. Although like said before I'm more concerned that the Pacers 2026 pick is a good one. For me personally I was more fond of Pascal's game when he was a two way force. Similar to Bosh. Once he started becoming the focal point offensively and his defence started slipping I wasn't his biggest fan. Although he certainly had his moments that brought me back on board from time to time.

[Merit]

I'm not a Pascal hater and I wish him well. Although like said before I'm more concerned that the Pacers 2026 pick is a good one. For me personally I was more fond of Pascal's game when he was a two way force. Similar to Bosh. Once he started becoming the focal point offensively and his defence started slipping I wasn't his biggest fan. Although he certainly had his moments that brought me back on board from time to time.

Agreed that his defense slipped. Pascal is excellent beside a strong point guard who can shoot and when surrounded by shooting in general. He has both in Indy and like you, I also wish him well.

[Spates]

The siakam story should be different considering where we drafted him, him being the 2nd option during our championship run, etc.

I'm not saying you shouldn't be able to critize players for their performances but outrightly cheering when he has a bad game goes much deeper than that.

The Siakam story would be different if both he and the team consistently played well post-championship. He didn't and neither did the team. People cheering against him are fueled by a contingent of fans who treat him like a hall of famer. Pascal is on the Tobias Harris/Julius Randle level. Not deserving of all this attention. Good player, not terribly impactful on his own.

Nobody treats him like he's a hall of famer.

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

[ForeverTFC]

The Siakam story would be different if both he and the team consistently played well post-championship. He didn't and neither did the team. People cheering against him are fueled by a contingent of fans who treat him like a hall of famer. Pascal is on the Tobias Harris/Julius Randle level. Not deserving of all this attention. Good player, not terribly impactful on his own.

Nobody treats him like he's a hall of famer.

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

[yellowknifer]

The Siakam story would be different if both he and the team consistently played well post-championship. He didn't and neither did the team. People cheering against him are fueled by a contingent of fans who treat him like a hall of famer. Pascal is on the Tobias Harris/Julius Randle level. Not deserving of all this attention. Good player, not terribly impactful on his own.

Nobody treats him like he's a hall of famer.

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

Your "point" is severely lacking if you think he and Tobias Harris are in even the same universe let alone galaxy.

[Scase]

Nobody treats him like he's a hall of famer.

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

Maybe I'm just not seeing the posts, but I haven't seen anyone saying things like "I hope he loses eff that guy". That sounds like a made up boogeyman.

People will criticize him as every other player gets criticized, I hope the pacers do poorly because it directly impacts the value of one of our assets. Siakam isn't a raptor anymore, I dont care if he goes onto success or fades into the ether. I have definitely seen way more people still praising him than people actively hoping for his downfall.

For instance there sure were a bunch of people taking some victory laps after 2 games, who have been oddly silent with him being bad to mediocre for 4 straight.

No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

This rings true both ways, no one is hoping the pacers win the chip with him as the primary option, same that no one is hoping he breaks a leg out there and his season ends. You're combating hyperbole with hyperbole, but only recognizing the opposing side as hyperbole. And honestly, you're kinda proving his point.

[Mikistan]

I hope he loses eff that guy

[Los_29]

I hope he loses eff that guy

This is why we can’t have nice things. No fanbase dumps on its former players more than we do.

[Mikistan]

I hope he loses eff that guy

This is why we can’t have nice things. No fanbase dumps on its former players more than we do.

I know you don't understand irony or comedy so don't bother trying to understand context

[Raptaurus]

Maybe Pascal was not worth much on the trade market but his possible return doesn’t seem to have been helped by waiting as they long as they did to trade him.

We got less than what the Trail Blazers got for trading Jrue - who btw is a few years older and is a less of a player at this stage (at least) than Siakam. They got two first rounders (one of which is likely going to be pick 14 for this year) along with RWIII and Brogden.

[Los_29]

Maybe Pascal was not worth much on the trade market but his possible return doesn’t seem to have been helped by waiting as they long as they did to trade him.

We got less than what the Trail Blazers got for trading Jrue - who btw is a few years older and is a less of a player at this stage (at least) than Siakam. They got two first rounders (one of which is likely going to be pick 14 for this year) along with RWIII and Brogden.

Unfortunately I don’t think RWill will last very long in this league given all the injuries he has had. Brogdon also failed a physical and has had his fair share of problems staying healthy. He’s also 32.

[Spates]

Nobody treats him like he's a hall of famer.

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

[will]

Sure as heck wasted that opportunity by waiting until the very end to deal him.

For a #2 guy on a championship team, you'd think GMs would be blowing up Masai's Blackberry demanding to make a trade for him, regardless of his contract status.

[YogurtProducer]

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

He is top 5 without debate lol

Only VC, Bosh, Siakam, Demar, and Lowry have been named to an all star game more than once.

That same list, sans Bosh, have been named to more than 1 all-nba team

Siakam also has a championship

5th in points, 3rd in rebounds, 5th in assists, 9th in blocks, 10th in steals, 5th in games,.

4th in VORP, 5th in win shares, 10th in Box +/- (extremely flawed - Bebe is 7th lol)

Who the hell is above Siakam? It cant be Bosh OR Demar considering they have nothing on Siakam. They have neither team nor personal success.

[ForeverTFC]

It's hyperbole, Duff. You get the point I'm making. If the conversation could be more level people wouldn't be diverted to extremes.

He’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise. Yet no one on this board has ever pretended that Pascal is a superstar or a first option, save perhaps 6 months in ‘20. No one is the other side of your extreme when it comes to Pascal.

And even if that boogeyman existed, why would that give you the go ahead to actively hate on a guy that is by all accounts one of the biggest success stories of this franchise and a critical part of its first ever championship?

It's the treatment of personal opinion as inarguably truth. Statements like "he’s a top 5 player in the history of this franchise," drive me crazy. Everyone's entitled to their opinion but his top 5 status is debatable, top 10 certainly. Regardless, it's not terribly meaningful when the prospect of retiring Vince Carter's jersey, who arguably top 2 or 3, is hotly contested.

And what follows is predictable. You tell me he was the second option on a championship team. I tell you that misrepresents his role on the team. Lowry and Gasol had greater significance, imo. Then comes the 2x all-star and all-nba rhetoric as if they tell you all need to know about a player. When I consider Siakam I see someone who went from an incredible team-centric player to someone steadfast in developing their individual capacity to the detriment of team success. I think what he provides now is highly replaceable in most situations. Playing with Haliburton is ideal, so there's that.

As for the Boogeyman stuff, it's simple. His failure disproves any narratives that losing him was an irredeemable mistake. Or that the return was terrible. It's terrible based on reputation, closer to fair based on impact.

1. Lay out the case for a top 5 that excludes Siakam - you can look up box stats, advanced stats, individual and team honors; all would point to him as top 5 so I fail to see how I'm presenting a subjective opinion as fact here. This is as close to an objective view as you can get in Sports outside of "the eye test". Just because someone could argue he isn't top 5 doesn't make it a valid and logical argument. I'd wager consensus would put Siakam top 5 by a wide margin. That's as good as we're going to get here.

2. So are you going to say that Siakam focusing on becoming an isolation player is solely on him, and not the fact that he played for a coach whose offensive philosophy as a HC in this league has been to feed his best players in isolation both in Toronto and in Philly? Would you argue that he didn't play for a team whose analytics department came out and said ball movement is overrated and the best teams create in isolation? (See: https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-sportvu-follow-up-answering-the-most-common-questions-and-more-ghost-players/ and https://theathletic.com/266264/2018/03/08/for-the-raptors-isolation-basketball-isnt-always-a-bad-thing/ - the team reversing this view here is not talked about enough) This is the environment Siakam developed in. It's unfair to say he did x or y to the determinant of the team, ignoring that perhaps this is what was asked of him by the team.

3. Sure, his impact to date may point to the fact that it was smart to move on and that the return was fair. I won't argue that though I somewhat disagree; this is definitely up for debate and you would have very strong points. But this isn't what I was addressing in my post. In fact, I have called out the hypocrisy of those who say that Siakam is an overrated player and easily replaceable while at the same time shouting from the roof top how limited the return was and how Indiana robbed us blind. It's one or the other. Your view of the situation is consistent and logical, I have no problem with it.

[LarSiN]

Sure as heck wasted that opportunity by waiting until the very end to deal him.

For a #2 guy on a championship team, you'd think GMs would be blowing up Masai's Blackberry demanding to make a trade for him, regardless of his contract status.

Almost like he's 30 & trying to sign a 5 year max or something...

[will]

Sure as heck wasted that opportunity by waiting until the very end to deal him.

For a #2 guy on a championship team, you'd think GMs would be blowing up Masai's Blackberry demanding to make a trade for him, regardless of his contract status.

Almost like he's 30 & trying to sign a 5 year max or something...

Every GM is jumping to get a 30 year old on a 5 year max